41 replies to this topic

[Kmieciu]

Clanners should not get XP/C-Bills bonuses for kill assists. Simple yet game changing.

[Gaan Cathal]

Kmieciu, on 19 June 2013 - 01:46 AM, said:

Clanners should not get XP/C-Bills bonuses for kill assists. Simple yet game changing.

Why not?

[Borengar629]

As stupid as this may sound but making the clans balanced to the inner sphere would even be a little non-canonial, as they are faar supirior in almost every aspect. The only thing that the inner sphere has the upper hand is the clanners extrem lack of human nature which makes them predictable and easy to counter on a strategic level. But that level is waht we as players represent in the game. I really don't see a possibility, how to achive balance there.
Only if they would make the clanners do their biding thing before every match, so theiy and up using 5 light mechs and have to engage 8 inner sphere mechs whose players choose as they like. That would be canonial but I don't think it'll fit a game, especially a mmo.
I guess we will have to wait for what they will come up with.

[aniviron]

Kmieciu, on 19 June 2013 - 01:46 AM, said:

Clanners should not get XP/C-Bills bonuses for kill assists. Simple yet game changing.

Not a horrible idea, except that it would completely ruin the in-game economy for PGI. Little known fact: PGI actually wants you to make cbills and xp, because it gives you a sense that you are accomplishing something, and makes you more likely to play again tomorrow. It gives you a long-term goal, something to work towards, and a reason to keep grinding when you're bored. This is the premise upon which all f2p games are built, and this one is no different. In the current world of f2p online games, playercounts are money, even if not all the players are paying; you need people who are willing to devote time to the game to support the people who buy their way through it, just like the people who play for free need the people who buy things so the devs can eat.

So while it's not the worst idea I have heard, it will never happen in this game. For similar reasons, I can't imagine omnimechs not having xp unlocks in some form.

Edited by aniviron, 19 June 2013 - 02:38 AM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

MustrumRidcully, on 18 June 2013 - 10:39 PM, said:

While this sounds interesting in theory, it ignores the "fictional reality" of the battletech universe. The Clans do not need to follow Zellbrigen if their enemy doesn't either.

They don't "need" to, but they are still supposed to. It's all about moral high ground. Those clans that were willing to stick to their own codes of honor tended to be far more successful in the long run than the ones that took every opportunity to violate the rules because the IS were a bunch of barbarians who "provoked" them (Smoke Jaguars, I'm looking at you).

[Target Rich]

I am confused....IF they are porting the World of Tanks meta game over....then there will be NO IS/Clan....instead...there will be generic units composed of players having whatever mechs they think are best...ie each player will have BOTH IS and Clan mechs and tech. Then each unit (called clans in WOT) will have an assigned galactic map territory and the meta game begins.

Yes...we have always had separate IS, Clan, and Merc/Free House units in the past with very different tech trees...but I am not sure that MWO is in fact going this route.

[Target Rich]

One more issue here....I understand that Piranna has semi committed to having a release at the end of Septembr 2013. If that release includes a full clan/IS metagame that mirrors the battletech timeline universe...then somebody at Piranna has about 15 plus Clan mechs and variants fully modeled and ready for release during the next two months. That is a huge amount of stuff..

You have to have parity in equipment availability between the two factions to make this kind of metagame work. Releasing a metagame in which one of the factions has only two or three mechs to choose from is counterintuitive at best...(read STUPID for the eloquitionary challenged).

Again...it makes me wonder IF there will be tech restricted clan and IS units in the metagame at all...or whether it will be totally open to each unit using whatever they want.

[Chavette]

Clans aren't coming this year. This discussion is useless.

[MasterErrant]

Charons Little Helper, on 18 June 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:

I've mentioned this on another thread or two, but I figured that it deserved its own thread.

There's been a lot of theories about how to balance the incoming clans and Inner Sphere. There seem to be two basic theories on how it should be done.

1. Inner Sphere mechs outnumbering Clan Mechs. Whatever numbers 12 v 8 or 8 v 5 etc. I think that this is a bad idea. It would be very difficult to balance properly, and would be somewhat unsatisfying to the players on both sides. Either they have inferior tech, or they're outnumbered every match.

2. Force some sort of honor system on Clan Mechs. There's no real way to do this properly. Maybe you could give them fewer rewards (c-bills / xp) for not being honorable - but then both sides know that the clans could always win if they decided to fight properly.

I suggest a 3rd option.

3. Have the numbers be equal. No forced honor system. Instead, Inner Sphere mechs come to battle with creep backup - tanks, helicopters, artillery etc.

Think of it as Clan Mechs challenging Inner Sphere Mechs to a battle. The Inner Sphere mechs agree - then bring along the help. Clan Mechs would never do such a thing due to their honor.

It would be very easy to tweak the balance. Weapons and mechs are hard. With creeps, simply record the overall win / loss of clans vs inner sphere. After a decent chunk (so law of large number applies), either increase or decrease the number of creeps for better balance. (though the number and type would need to vary by map of course)

ah do you know what the calns do to planets who cheat on bids? lol.

[Thuzel]

Clan tech is vastly superior in every way to IS level 2. Not just by a little bit. Clan tech literally makes IS tech look like a joke. 15 point PPCs, ER mediums, Streak 6s, No minimum LRMs, Ultra AC 20s, 2 slot XLs, 2 Slot DHS, etc... This stuff will need very special rules to make it work, assuming they want to mix Clans and IS mechs in a match.

Just my opinion, but the only way to balance clan tech is either to:

1. keep it in separate matches from IS mechs
2. Outnumber it significantly on the IS side, probably on a 2 to 1 ratio or thereabouts (5v8, 10v16 would be hard on the IS side)

I think the latter would work if they keep the numbers right. But given PGI's "balance work" to date I don't see that happening any time in the next year.

That being said, this would be a perfect use of drop-ship mode. Let each IS player pick two mechs and then re-spawn in the second after their first gets blown away (because it will get blown away).

-- Edit --

Just to put this in perspective, assuming PGI used the TT values as a baseline like they did with the IS weapons, a clan ER medium would have an optimal range of 450 meters (effective to at least 700), hits for 7 points of damage, weighs only 1 ton, and only generates 2 more heat than the IS medium.

That makes it almost the equivalent of the IS large laser for 1/5th the weight and 1/2 the heat.

Imagine a hunchback with 9 large lasers running a standard engine (not XL) at 89 kph, and cool enough to fire just as or more often than the inner sphere one. Putting that up against any single IS mech would be a waste of time even if the other had tanks or helicopters helping out.

Edited by Thuzel, 20 June 2013 - 08:58 AM.

[IceSerpent]

Kmieciu, on 19 June 2013 - 01:46 AM, said:

Clanners should not get XP/C-Bills bonuses for kill assists. Simple yet game changing.

The underlined part actually made me laugh.

[Jestun]

No, just balance them.

Balance > Lore.

[Thuzel]

Jestun, on 20 June 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

No, just balance them.

Balance > Lore.

Completely agree, Balance > lore.

That being said, have we been playing the same game? This is the one where we've been waiting for damage tweaks for half a year or more, right? The one where we haven't had a properly functioning repeat on the backspace button for over a month? Where we've been struggling with just the simplest of weapon fixes since the game launched a year ago? Yeah.... Good luck with that!

Also, it doesn't work that way. The entire BT game was designed around a tiered weapon system. IS level one is less powerful than IS level two, which is much less powerful than clan. If you take the clan systems and reduce them down to the current levels, then they actually become identical to the weapons we use right now. There'd be no point in even having them in the game.

It was literally designed just so that there would be a huge disparity in power between the mech types. Starting with that and making the tiers competitive against each other is going to require small miracles. For a current example, just ask how many people still use single heatsinks (tier 1 tech). That's a perfect example of the tiers competing against each other, and despite PGI's best efforts to keep single heatsinks relevant, I'd bet less than 5% of us use them. They were just designed to be better.

[Screech]

Clans should only be allowed in medium mechs.

[Ranek Blackstone]

Clan Mechs are, by and large, Omnis. And they, by and large, all run XL Engines.

Which they can't remove. That Dire Wolf is a nasty comer, what with something like 11 Omni hard points, but it HAS to run the XL 300 Engine, and standard structure.

Which gives it problems.

First is speed. Even speed tweaked, it's never going to get to 50kph, because it's stuck with an XL300 in a 100 ton frame.

Second is armor. For all that firepower, it's got just as much armor as an Atlas, and pretty big side torsos. If the Timber wolf is a Catapult with arms, the Dire wolf is a 100 ton stalker with arms. Which means a pretty good sized side torso. And an XL engine. Not a good combo in a fight.

Timber Wolf is going to be an interesting foe. 75 ton mech with Clan Endo, Ferro, and an XL 375. As much armor as the Orion, and all the speed as a stock Dragon or Quickdraw and 8 Omni hard points. Pity it has 14 crit slots pre-used by Endo and FF. And large side torsos with an XL Engine in it.

[Traigus]

Ranek Blackstone, on 20 June 2013 - 03:17 PM, said:

Clan Mechs are, by and large, Omnis. And they, by and large, all run XL Engines.

Which they can't remove. That Dire Wolf is a nasty comer, what with something like 11 Omni hard points, but it HAS to run the XL 300 Engine, and standard structure.

Which gives it problems.

First is speed. Even speed tweaked, it's never going to get to 50kph, because it's stuck with an XL300 in a 100 ton frame.

Second is armor. For all that firepower, it's got just as much armor as an Atlas, and pretty big side torsos. If the Timber wolf is a Catapult with arms, the Dire wolf is a 100 ton stalker with arms. Which means a pretty good sized side torso. And an XL engine. Not a good combo in a fight.

Timber Wolf is going to be an interesting foe. 75 ton mech with Clan Endo, Ferro, and an XL 375. As much armor as the Orion, and all the speed as a stock Dragon or Quickdraw and 8 Omni hard points. Pity it has 14 crit slots pre-used by Endo and FF. And large side torsos with an XL Engine in it.

IIRc Clan XLs require 1 less slot in each side torso, and you need to kill both sides or the center to kill the mech.

Clan endo only uses 7 crits.

Edited by Traigus, 20 June 2013 - 03:35 PM.

[Ranek Blackstone]

Traigus, on 20 June 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

IIRc Clan XLs require 1 less slot in each side torso, and you need to kill both sides or the center to kill the mech.

Clan endo only uses 7 crits.

Don't know why they'd have it any other way then how we handle IS XL engines. Once you blow out the torso section, the engine counts as blown up. Never played TT though, and Sarna is rather vague on what the rules are concerning XL engines in that regard though, so you may be right.

Clan Endo uses 7, and Clan FF uses 7. The Timber Wolf Omnimech must use both systems however, and thus has 14 crit pre-used.

Edited by Ranek Blackstone, 20 June 2013 - 03:52 PM.

[FupDup]

Ranek Blackstone, on 20 June 2013 - 03:17 PM, said:

Clan Mechs are, by and large, Omnis. And they, by and large, all run XL Engines.

Which they can't remove. That Dire Wolf is a nasty comer, what with something like 11 Omni hard points, but it HAS to run the XL 300 Engine, and standard structure.

Which gives it problems.

First is speed. Even speed tweaked, it's never going to get to 50kph, because it's stuck with an XL300 in a 100 ton frame.

Second is armor. For all that firepower, it's got just as much armor as an Atlas, and pretty big side torsos. If the Timber wolf is a Catapult with arms, the Dire wolf is a 100 ton stalker with arms. Which means a pretty good sized side torso. And an XL engine. Not a good combo in a fight.

Timber Wolf is going to be an interesting foe. 75 ton mech with Clan Endo, Ferro, and an XL 375. As much armor as the Orion, and all the speed as a stock Dragon or Quickdraw and 8 Omni hard points. Pity it has 14 crit slots pre-used by Endo and FF. And large side torsos with an XL Engine in it.

Go to TechManual and read the Omnimech construction rules. It says that armor/engine/etc. can't be changed between the base, primary, or alternate configurations. In other words, stock variants. It's a common error for this to be overextended to include custom configurations, which it doesn't. Strategic Operations says under its refit rules:


So yes, an Omni can in fact modify those internal items, but in order to do so it becomes a custom unit and loses its Omni capabilities (becomes a regular Battlemech).



And other thing: hardpoints don't exist at all in canon for Omnis or Battlemechs. Omnis just let you mod and repair the weapons much faster and easier. So really, our current Battlemechs wouldn't even have hardpoints at all in BT. Omni hardpoints (and energy, missile, ballistic) were invented by MW4 as a means to make mechs have a different "flavor." Maybe MWO Omnis will just have pure Omni hardpoints, maybe they won't have hardpoints at all, maybe they'll mix Omni with standard hardpoints. We don't know what PGI has planned for this so there's no use trying to guess.

Ranek Blackstone, on 20 June 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

Don't know why they'd have it any other way then how we handle IS XL engines. Once you blow out the torso section, the engine counts as blown up. Never played TT though, and Sarna is rather vague on what the rules are concerning XL engines.

The rule for all engines is that an engine which is critted in 3 slots is destroyed (this can even be done to the center torso). Because IS XL takes up 3 slots in each side torso, blowing up a side torso automatically fulfills that requirement. Clan XL only take up 2 slots in each side torso, so blowing up one side torso isn't enough to finish it off.

Edited by FupDup, 20 June 2013 - 03:52 PM.

[Deathlike]

Screech, on 20 June 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

Clans should only be allowed in medium mechs.

You would not want that. They would already put current mediums to shame, if not scare most/all lights.

[Funkadelic Mayhem]

where is the option for "not voting because its a public poll"?