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Next Patch Implements End To Ridge Humping? Nerf To Assaults.


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#1 MeatForBrains

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 11:59 AM

So the next patch will essentially end ridge humping for heavies and assaults on many maps.

Do you thing this is PGI's way of penalizing PPC boats? They must stand way out in the open and follow predictable pathways?

It sounds like they are nerfing heavies and assaults in general. Probably a good idea.

http://mwomercs.com/...14#entry2495114

and also

View PostKevin Meek, on 27 June 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

Regarding posts on why 'Mechs with heavier in-game tonnage can find themselves in a smaller archetype:

In addition to the movement for slopes, those archetypes are also consolidating the Mech vs world collision capsules.

Before this system, each 'Mech would have its own pill-shaped collision proxy fitted for its rough shape, making a ton of different 'Mechs get stuck in slightly different locations. Now, with 5 capsules, we can design levels for specific collision capsule sizes, and find/fix stuck bugs much easier.

For that reason, the 'Mech archetypes looked at grouping relative size (height, length, and width) as its main consideration. Because of the extra big shoulders of the missile boxes, and the very long nose, the catapult would need to be in a larger capsule category than the heavier Cataphract. I don't think that you'll find the movement abilities between two neighboring archetypes so substantial that it would be effectively nerfing or giving substantial advantages to any 'Mech that seems out of order due to its assumed weight but smaller frame. Especially with engine speed and momentum of lighter 'Mechs still being factored in (read: a slow moving Cataphract in a smaller movement archetype is going to probably still have a harder longer time than a faster moving Catapult at climbing any substantial hill).

That being said, it's easy enough to switch some 'Mechs into a different archetype or to tune the climb angles for any archetype if needed. I don't forsee any issues with the current grouping but you don't have to worry that things are 100% set in stone as far as grouping or angles are concerned.

Triple clarification: Collision capsules for 'Mechs here are just referring to 'Mech vs. world collision, each 'Mech still has its own unique collision proxys for 'Mech vs. weapon.

edit: fixing super f'd up formatting from c/p'ing.



Ask the Devs #39
Prosperity Park: Are there any longer-term plans to add a Deep Water penalty to the movement speed of Mechs traveling through significantly-deep water?
A: We’re adding some new movement code that will make mechs behave more realistically when traversing rolling terrain. Once in, we can examine adding water friction if we feel it will add a benefit to gameplay.

Edited by MeatForBrains, 27 June 2013 - 12:51 PM.


#2 jakucha

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 12:01 PM

Yeah, I can't wait for this. This will breath some life back into brawling. Now the only mechs that can get up super high and snipe are the ones with JJs.

Edited by jakucha, 27 June 2013 - 12:02 PM.


#3 Deathlike

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 12:02 PM

Shouldn't that just shift the Stalker meta a tad to Highlanders?

Where's the smallest violin? I feel a song comin' on...

#4 tenderloving

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 12:03 PM

I don't think this was aimed at PPC boats. However it is technically a (very needed) nerf to the heavier mechs, and it will make them behave as heavy mechs should.

It also buffs jump jets.

View PostDeathlike, on 27 June 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

Shouldn't that just shift the Stalker meta a tad to Highlanders?

Where's the smallest violin? I feel a song comin' on...


Possibly, but now the highlanders have to pack on a lot of jets to get height, which means less tonnage for other things.

#5 bloodnor

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 12:03 PM

nerf lol. you mean the correct use of physics

#6 Rotaugen

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 12:04 PM

I think the Acme Corporation has an overstock of jump jets and is looking for a way to stimulate jump jet sales...

#7 BillyM

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 12:06 PM

Holycrap... JJ mechs just got a HUGE buff.

Canyon network only has like 5 ways to get above the canyon level for non-JJ mechs.
...same for the caldera and 3-line hills on caustic.

*throws HBK in the trash...*

New users are going to have a TERRIBLE time figuring out what you can and cannot traverse.

--billyM

Edited by BillyM, 27 June 2013 - 12:08 PM.


#8 MeatForBrains

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 12:07 PM

Yes, this will hopefully bring more utility to lights and mediums. This is a great change. How obnoxious is it to be hit with ERPPC from the tallest mountain of Alpine?

Since most ridge humping is over 45% incline, we will see a lot less of it. This is a great idea.

#9 jeffsw6

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 12:08 PM

This is another of those changes that will dramatically affect the game, and probably be screwed up, IMO. The current maps were all designed to work with the existing mech movement. If certain mechs can no longer climb hills on those maps, it is going to hugely change the way the game plays.

It is already a huge pain to get a Stalker up a ridge in Canyon Network. Is it going to be impossible now?

Caustic? Alpine? I mean, look, you just can't make a change like this without also modifying some maps. It would be like dramatically modifying the LRM flight arc so buildings and hills are no longer effective cover, and expecting LRMs not to become massively over-powered. Only an ***** would do that. Oh ... wait ...

Sure hope PGI has some new maps in the hopper.

#10 jakucha

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 12:10 PM

View Postjeffsw6, on 27 June 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

This is another of those changes that will dramatically affect the game, and probably be screwed up, IMO. The current maps were all designed to work with the existing mech movement. If certain mechs can no longer climb hills on those maps, it is going to hugely change the way the game plays.



How do you know that? They've been working on this for a long time; it's entirely possible they've been designing the maps with this in mind. The incline heat maps have a fairly ordered appearance to them so I wouldn't be surprised.

#11 MeatForBrains

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 12:10 PM

View Postjeffsw6, on 27 June 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

This is another of those changes that will dramatically affect the game, and probably be screwed up, IMO. The current maps were all designed to work with the existing mech movement.


You don't know that, it's a speculation.

Perhaps it's part of their long term goal? Look at Canyon and how recently it came out and tell me this wasn't their plan all along.

#12 New Day

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 12:15 PM

View Postbloodnor, on 27 June 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

nerf lol. you mean the correct use of physics

Your actuators immediately break once you take 1 step.
nerf lol. you mean the correct use of physics

#13 tenderloving

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 12:15 PM

View Postjeffsw6, on 27 June 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

The current maps were all designed to work with the existing mech movement.

No they weren't. Alpine should make that clear. Even Forest Colony has a lot of ridges that you logically shouldn't be able to climb.

If certain mechs can no longer climb hills on those maps, it is going to hugely change the way the game plays.

The changes will be for the better. The game will be more fluid, and maxing out tonnage will now have drawbacks as well as advantages.




PGI has done a lot of boneheaded stuff, but you can't fault them for adding logic and realism to the gameplay.

Edited by tenderloving, 27 June 2013 - 12:16 PM.


#14 PEEFsmash

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 12:21 PM

I think this is a good thing for the game, and something that I hadn't considered before.

Not bad.

#15 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 12:24 PM

View Postjeffsw6, on 27 June 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

This is another of those changes that will dramatically affect the game, and probably be screwed up, IMO. The current maps were all designed to work with the existing mech movement. If certain mechs can no longer climb hills on those maps, it is going to hugely change the way the game plays.

It is already a huge pain to get a Stalker up a ridge in Canyon Network. Is it going to be impossible now?

Caustic? Alpine? I mean, look, you just can't make a change like this without also modifying some maps. It would be like dramatically modifying the LRM flight arc so buildings and hills are no longer effective cover, and expecting LRMs not to become massively over-powered. Only an ***** would do that. Oh ... wait ...

Sure hope PGI has some new maps in the hopper.

In this case I'd give them the benefit of doubt and am willing to believe they actually designed this mech with this in mind. In that case, however, I remains to be seen if the maps work well when exposed to the community.

But they've adjusted maps before in reaction to the analysis of player behaviour. I could see adding a few ramps in the Canyon Network, for example.

---

What I find more questionable is the slowdown angle thingy they implemented for different mechs. On what basis where those set? Theycoulduse this to buff weak mechs and nerf strong ones, but did they?

As long as the match-maker tries to balance on weight class and not on absolute tonnage; I would recommend giving the low-weight mechs in a class to get a good slowdown angles and the high-weight mechs in a class the poor slowdown angles. And ensure that the heavier the weight class, the worse the angle.

It definitely looks to me as I'll hate angles and inclines more than I already do with my dirt-shooting Atlas.
But at least my AC/40 looks good.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 27 June 2013 - 12:29 PM.


#16 Tezcatli

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 12:27 PM

I remember hearing about this in one of the podcasts a few weeks back. Good to see it's close enough to being ready that they announced it.

Thank goodness. It's not only logical. But it helps to balance against Assaults and some heavies. :(

I'm on the fence about the Phoenix project. But this is one more thing pointing the game in the right direction. Making me consider supporting the game.

#17 Zyllos

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 12:29 PM

View Postjeffsw6, on 27 June 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

This is another of those changes that will dramatically affect the game, and probably be screwed up, IMO. The current maps were all designed to work with the existing mech movement. If certain mechs can no longer climb hills on those maps, it is going to hugely change the way the game plays.

It is already a huge pain to get a Stalker up a ridge in Canyon Network. Is it going to be impossible now?

Caustic? Alpine? I mean, look, you just can't make a change like this without also modifying some maps. It would be like dramatically modifying the LRM flight arc so buildings and hills are no longer effective cover, and expecting LRMs not to become massively over-powered. Only an ***** would do that. Oh ... wait ...

Sure hope PGI has some new maps in the hopper.


This is entirely false.

PGI even specifically said that they have been producing maps in reference to knowing that certain inclines should not be traversable or easily navigatable.

I am sure someone can take the time to find the quote for it.

#18 Troggy

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 12:30 PM

View PostBillyM, on 27 June 2013 - 12:06 PM, said:

Holycrap... JJ mechs just got a HUGE buff.

Canyon network only has like 5 ways to get above the canyon level for non-JJ mechs.
...same for the caldera and 3-line hills on caustic.

*throws HBK in the trash...*

New users are going to have a TERRIBLE time figuring out what you can and cannot traverse.

--billyM


No they won't. Mechs can't climb mountains. Little mechs are better at hills than big mechs. It doesn't take a gorram rocket scientist. Give me a break.


View Postjeffsw6, on 27 June 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

This is another of those changes that will dramatically affect the game, and probably be screwed up, IMO. The current maps were all designed to work with the existing mech movement. If certain mechs can no longer climb hills on those maps, it is going to hugely change the way the game plays.

It is already a huge pain to get a Stalker up a ridge in Canyon Network. Is it going to be impossible now?

Caustic? Alpine? I mean, look, you just can't make a change like this without also modifying some maps. It would be like dramatically modifying the LRM flight arc so buildings and hills are no longer effective cover, and expecting LRMs not to become massively over-powered. Only an ***** would do that. Oh ... wait ...

Sure hope PGI has some new maps in the hopper.


I can't imagine PGI intended the mountains, crystal spires, etc. to be climbable in the long term. It's seems pretty clear when they designed Alpine Peaks, for example, they didn't say "I think the way to play this map will be to run straight up the mountain on a direct line to the enemy base, then shoot them from the high ground."

Impassible terrain is a good idea. Period.

--
Troggy

#19 3rdworld

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 12:31 PM

I want to know what ridges on Canyon, the highest tier will even be able to get up. I bet most are well over 20 degrees.

#20 AnnoyingCat

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 12:33 PM

for a second there i thought those were heat maps





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