27 replies to this topic

[Hans Von Lohman]

There are a lot of 6 PPC stalkers, and 2 AC-20 JaegerMechs out there. I get that.

There was also a time with six SRM-6 catapults were a thing as well.

The problem isn't the weapon systems per say. It is the fact that if you can load up on the best damaging weapon, you will.

The idea we're after is to get people to start mixing their loadouts, not to change the weapons themselves.

There are ways to do that.

The "heat penalty" addition to the game is one such way to do it, but that may or may not change anything. You can still alpha strike, just not as often.

I think the idea of firing too many weapons at the same time, aka the alpha strike needs to be in the game, but it needs to be something you only want to do in special circumstances, aka when you cannot miss or when it might be worth a hail Mary and just fire everything.

For normal play you should be rotating through your weapons, and that includes rotating through groups of the same weapons.

My idea is to have your targeting computer be overwhelmed by the stress you are putting on it whenever you fire too many weapons. Similar the the "heat penalty buildup" that was announced, but instead of more heat, I want your weapons to get less accurate if you just fire all of them at the same time.

If you fire 3 or more PPC's, 20 or more SRM missiles (mixed launchers added together), or 2 AC-20's or Gauss rifles, then you should have the shots go wild a bit. Your will not go where you aim them, but up, left, right, down, or even straight, but it randomized into a cone, not a straight line.

You can still have a 6 PPC Stalker. However, if you want to hit something at range you accept that you are firing a 6 PPC LBX/shotgun spread and not a concentrated blast. Or you pair your shots and fire only 2 PPCs at a time in a rotation.

Edited by Hans Von Lohman, 29 June 2013 - 06:33 PM.

[El Bandito]

Removing Alpha Strike is a decent idea. In addition to that, make it so that bigger weapons have longer time to chain-fire. For example, Medium Lasers can chain fire within 0.25 seconds while Large Lasers will take 0.5 seconds and PPCs will take 0.75 second to chain fire.-- all subject to balance change.

This will make people take mixed builds (which is what the game should be about) since large weapons will have severe disadvantage at closer range, while smaller weapons will excel at brawling due to shorter chain-fire cooldown.

Edited by El Bandito, 29 June 2013 - 10:32 PM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Convergence time just needs to be added back into the game.

Convergence used to be in the game but was removed due to bugs, it's yet to be re-introduced, and this is part of what's causing problems.

It also makes part of the pilot tree useless, as the items to lower convergence times do nothing, but you have to spend XP to unlock them to go to the next tier.

[Throat Punch]

Add "Critical Slots" ala TT rules and voila, no more boating, no more ravens with ERPPC's, no more Jagerbombs, just legitimate viable builds.

[Sephlock]

Kitsune! You're still alive!

[Little Nemo]

6 PPCs on a Stalker is a terrible build. Just sayin'.

[Hans Von Lohman]

Skinny Pete, on 29 June 2013 - 06:45 PM, said:

6 PPCs on a Stalker is a terrible build. Just sayin'.

Yes, it would be if you cannot count on where your shots are going to go. Just like loading up a catapult with all of the SRM's it can fit should make your missiles go in such a wide spread they're not worth firing in such massive volleys. You should fire in multiple groups of them instead of alpha striking.

Fire all 6 PPC's at once, then you got yourself a weapon that acts like the LB-10X and sends the PPC bolts in a shotgun pattern, and not down the center of your aim.

Edited by Hans Von Lohman, 29 June 2013 - 07:02 PM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Morsdraco, on 29 June 2013 - 06:42 PM, said:

Add "Critical Slots" ala TT rules and voila, no more boating, no more ravens with ERPPC's, no more Jagerbombs, just legitimate viable builds.

There's no such thing as "critical slots" in TT, what the hell are you even talking about. the "build rules" for MWO are basically the same as TT's right now, except MWO actually has hardpoints in which TT does not.

Meaning in TT you could fill an atlas with all Medium lasers, in MWO you cannot.

[Unbound Inferno]

A forced cycle rate? Not a bad idea.

There's been a few tossed around on how an Alpha Strike is like a special power or a one-off. Why not have that on a cooldown? Your weapons automatically cycle unless they can alpha like that, forcing that level of inaccuracy.

But it doesn't' really end the pinpoint problem...

[Lightfoot]

I don't think any MechWarrior game would remove Alpha Strikes and why would you use an Alpha-Strike if you know 50-70% of your weapons will miss?

You use an Alpha-Strike to save your mech or if you are a boat. In the first case your enemy is coming straight at you or may be a boat that shutdown, giving you the chance to finish it off before it can restart. In the second case you built a boat which is not very smart since boats all have a critical weakness be that range or overheat, etc. Newbs build boats, some stock mechs have a 3 to 4 main weapons of the same type. That's a boating issue though, not an Alpha-Strike issue.

However you can place drawbacks to Alpha-Striking, just not ones that make the Alpha-Strike pointless to use, like half your weapons missing. I mean you can do that in a turn-based dice game and it will work, but not in an interactive sim-shooter.

Here is a short list of previously used and possible Alpha-Strike nerfs. I am sure there are more, but these don't negate the reason to use the AS, which is, fire all your weapons into one mech section in an attempt to kill it.

1. High heat.
2. Mech slows down or stops for 2-3 seconds.
3. HUD becomes jumbled for 2-3 seconds and then recovers over 2-3 seconds.
4. Mech can self-destruct if heat is too high.

So, see you can have everything including self-destructions, but you can't remove the attempt to fire all weapons into a single section, because that is what the Alpha-Strike is for.

Go ahead and ask for fuzzy alpha-strikes if you want, but I think you are wasting time that would be better spent on asking for the things like I listed from past MW games. Those create a nice simulation and prevent repeated AS-ing.

[Otto Cannon]

http://mwomercs.com/...active-reticle/
Pinpoint single fire. Groupfired alphas spread slightly in a non-random way. Simple.

[Otto Cannon]

Lightfoot, on 29 June 2013 - 09:47 PM, said:

you can't remove the attempt to fire all weapons into a single section, because that is what the Alpha-Strike is for.

No it isn't. Alpha strikes are for firing all your weapons at the enemy mech, not at a single pinpoint location. Nobody is suggesting your shots should miss the mech you aim at, just that you should perhaps hit two torso locations instead of one. If you've already damaged the enemy with skilled shots that should be all you need. Pinpoint just allows a single badly aimed shot by a bad player to kill you unfairly.

[Lightfoot]

Otto Cannon, on 29 June 2013 - 10:05 PM, said:

No it isn't. Alpha strikes are for firing all your weapons at the enemy mech, not at a single pinpoint location. Nobody is suggesting your shots should miss the mech you aim at, just that you should perhaps hit two torso locations instead of one. If you've already damaged the enemy with skilled shots that should be all you need. Pinpoint just allows a single badly aimed shot by a bad player to kill you unfairly.

As a pilot you have all the defenses you need to spread damage from an Alpha-Strike. You just keep lateral movement to the attacking mech and their AS will be spread across several mech sections. Do you really need the Devs to spread an AS for you with fuzzy aim? No, not at all, that is your responsibility. It's a skill that seperates the the salvage piles from the mech pilots. I am not talking about boating although the Alpha-Strike is the best anti-boating tool at your disposal. I have defeated so many boats with a well placed Alpha-Strike, but I did that, I didn't have to ask the devs to nerf something boaty.

I love all these posts that want the Ace level skills and abilities removed from the game. Don't you want to be the best? Don't you want your mettle as a pilot tested? Do you think fuzzy aim grows your skill or prevents it from taking hold? Are you not up to the challenge of being a good mech pilot? There are two sides to everything you know. Where do you stand?

[El Bandito]

Lightfoot, on 29 June 2013 - 10:29 PM, said:

As a pilot you have all the defenses you need to spread damage from an Alpha-Strike. You just keep lateral movement to the attacking mech and their AS will be spread across several mech sections. Do you really need the Devs to spread an AS for you with fuzzy aim? No, not at all, that is your responsibility. It's a skill that seperates the the salvage piles from the mech pilots. I am not talking about boating although the Alpha-Strike is the best anti-boating tool at your disposal. I have defeated so many boats with a well placed Alpha-Strike, but I did that, I didn't have to ask the devs to nerf something boaty. I love all these posts that want the Ace level skills and abilities removed from the game. Don't you want to be the best? Don't you want your mettle as a pilot tested? Do you think fuzzy aim grows your skill or prevents it from taking hold? Are you not up to the challenge of being a good mech pilot? There are two sides to everything you know. Where do you stand?

Enemy mechs can keep their lateral movement all they want, my Dual Ac20s/Quad PPCs will still blow their arms/legs/side torsos off because they hit the exact same location thanks to pinpoint alpha--the ultimate noob mechanic.

You speak as if removing Alpha Strike removes you ability to dominate the game and let lesser players catch up to you. If you are as good as you claim, then even with Alpha Strike gone, you can still do better than others.

The question is: Are you up to the challenge without the Alpha crutch?

Edited by El Bandito, 29 June 2013 - 10:47 PM.

[Otto Cannon]

Lightfoot, on 29 June 2013 - 10:29 PM, said:

As a pilot you have all the defenses you need to spread damage from an Alpha-Strike. You just keep lateral movement to the attacking mech and their AS will be spread across several mech sections. Do you really need the Devs to spread an AS for you with fuzzy aim? No, not at all, that is your responsibility. It's a skill that seperates the the salvage piles from the mech pilots. I am not talking about boating although the Alpha-Strike is the best anti-boating tool at your disposal. I have defeated so many boats with a well placed Alpha-Strike, but I did that, I didn't have to ask the devs to nerf something boaty.

I love all these posts that want the Ace level skills and abilities removed from the game. Don't you want to be the best? Don't you want your mettle as a pilot tested? Do you think fuzzy aim grows your skill or prevents it from taking hold? Are you not up to the challenge of being a good mech pilot? There are two sides to everything you know. Where do you stand?

Torso twisting applies either way, it's not relevant to the issue.

I think pinpoint alpha is a scrub-crutch for people who can't hit the same place more than once. Any truly good pilot should welcome a good convergence fix that makes skill and aim count for more.

[Tezcatli]

I like the idea of the targeting computer playing a more major role.

[Stoicblitzer]

ok no sarcasm. 6ppc stalkers are working as intended™ 4ppc stalkers aren't.

[Lightfoot]

El Bandito, on 29 June 2013 - 10:35 PM, said:

Enemy mechs can keep their lateral movement all they want, my Dual Ac20s/Quad PPCs will still blow their arms/side torsos off because they hit the exact same location--the ultimate noob mechanic.

You speak as if removing Alpha Strike removes you ability to dominate the game and let lesser players catch up to you. If you are as good as you claim, then even with Alpha Strike gone, you can still do better than others. The question is: Are you up to the challenge?

You are talking about boating issues. I am talking about the Alpha-Strike. If we can't differentiate between the two there is no point in discussing it because clustered weapons of the same type are always going to hit the same spot unless something is changed regarding boated weapons. Perhaps you want massed weapons of the same type to fire in pulses a half second apart?

Truly, I don't think I am very good at MWO, but I am confident I can defeat most boats most of the time by attacking their weakness so not a problem and nothing new for a MechWarrior game. If I fail to hit them in their weak zone, well I failed. No big deal, get them next time. Somtimes the 2xAC20 wins, sometimes I win with a mixed loadout. Gotta say, rarely do shutdown mechs win, they get the Alpha-Strike.

Some days a Bear will eat you, some days you eat the Bear.

Edited by Lightfoot, 29 June 2013 - 11:04 PM.

[El Bandito]

Lightfoot, on 29 June 2013 - 10:56 PM, said:

You are talking about boating issues. I am talking about the Alpha-Strike. If we can't differentiate between the two there is no point in discussing it because clustered weapons of the same type are always going to hit the same spot unless something is changed regarding boated weapons. Perhaps you want massed weapons of the same type to fire in pulses a half second apart? Truly, I don't think I am very good at MWO, but I am confident I can defeat most boats most of the time by attacking their weakness so not a problem and nothing new for a MechWarrior game. If I fail to hit them in their weak zone, well I failed. No big deal, get them next time. Somtimes the 2xAC20 wins, sometimes I win with a mixed loadout. Gotta say, rarely do shutdown mechs win, they get the Alpha-Strike. Some days a Bear will eat you, some days you eat the Bear.

Boating and Alphas are both part of the same issue. They are both complementing each other too well, thus turning what could be the most faithful BattleTech experience into a generic shooter with mech skin. That is something I cannot stand.

[Hans Von Lohman]

I'm not asking for the alpha strike to be removed, or turned into a consumable, or anything like that.

What I want is to modify that "extra heat" thing that PGI came up with. It might work, but it isn't what I would do.

All I'm asking is that if you fire a "normal" amount of a given weapon type at the same time, it acts like it already does.

If you fire a whole boatload of the same weapon type within .5 seconds, then you get a targeting computer overload and you get some of those weapons firing off-center instead of at the crosshairs.

If you fire 2 PPC's, you got a normal shot like you do now.
If you fire 6 PPC's, you got a powerful energy shotgun, LB-10X style.

This idea comes from the background fluff of some mechs like the Orion-V variant where you read that technicians add another SRM to the mech, but that causes the targeting computers to have issues. It is just colorful flavor for the back story, and actually has no part of the board game rules, but it did give me the idea. Here I think we will actually put those sorts of things into practice.