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Super Easy Stopgap Balance Changes For The Next Patch.


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#1 El Bandito

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 09:23 AM

Yo PGI, I am handing you the list of super easy balance changes you should include in the next patch to calm the community rage/disappointment while testing whatever the mystery balancing you are doing at the moment. Almost all the changes are simple number switches--easy as pie. These are simple stopgap balance changes before you guys roll in the real stuff in few patches onwards.


Ballistic Weapons: Increase most balllistic weapons' projectile speed to raise accuracy due to ammo limitation and make them more competitive. Increase AC5 and UAC5 heat. *edit* Lower AC2 rate of fire to make its DPS more in line with other ACs and make heat more manageable.

AC2 -- Heat lowered from 1.0 to 0.8. Rate-of-fire reduced from 0.5 to 0.75. Projectile speed decreased from 2000 to 1800.
AC5 -- Cooldown lowered from 1.5 to 1.25. Heat increased from 1 to 1.5. Projectile speed increased from 1300 to 1500.
UAC5 -- Heat increased from 1 to 1.5. Projectile speed increased from 1300 to 1500.
AC10 -- Projectile speed increased from 1100 to 1250.
LB10-X -- Pellet damage increased from 1 to 1.3. Projectile speed increased from 1100 to 1250.
AC20 -- Cooldown increased from 4 to 5.
Gauss Rifle -- Cooldown increased from 4 to 5. Projectile speed increased from 1200 to 1600.
Machine gun -- Damage increased from 0.1 to 0.12. Ammo per ton reduced from 2000 to 1500.


Energy Weapons: Make Pulse lasers a more viable close range alternative and nerf PPC/ERPPC.

Small Laser -- Leave as is.
Medium Laser -- Leave as is.
Large Laser -- Leave as is.
ER Large Laser -- Heat decreased from 9.5 to 9.
Small Pulse Laser -- Beam duration decreased from 0.5 to 0.3.
Medium Pulse Laser -- Beam duration decreased from 0.75 to 0.4.
Large Pulse Laser -- Beam duration decreased from 0.75 to 0.5.
PPC -- Heat increased from 8 to 9. Cooldown increased from 4 to 5. Projectile speed decreased from 2000 to 1300.
ERPPC -- Heat increased from 11 to 13. Cooldown increased from 4 to 5. Projectile speed decreased from 2000 to 1300.
Flamer -- No idea. You guys need to help me on this.


Missile Weapons: SRMs need damage buff. LRMs might need to be changed after they test the ECM change. *edit* New SSRM flight mechanic means SSRMs also need to have 2 damage to not be garbage.

LRM5 -- Leave as is.
LRM10 -- Leave as is.
LRM15 -- Leave as is.
LRM20 -- Leave as is.
SRM2 -- Damage increased from 1.5 to 2.
SRM4 -- Damage increased from 1.5 to 2.
SRM6 -- Damage increased from 1.5 to 2.
SSRM2 -- Damage increased from 1.5 to 2.


Support and utility weapons: Make Narc more useful by drastically increasing the ammo count. Can't mess with the tonnage, so...

TAG -- Leave as is.
AMS -- Leave as is.
NARC -- Ammo per ton increased from 12 to 36.


Equipments: ECM is the biggest culprit here, and I will try to make as simple change as possible. Basically turning it into a soft counter.

Guardian ECM -- Cloaking removed (enemies now can be locked under ECM umbrella). ECM will slow down target info gathering by 25% and slow missile lock by 50% within line-of-sight and 75% without line-of-sight, in 180 meter radius. Nullifies any advantages offered by Artemis, BAP and NARC. Can be countered by PPC/ERPPC hit for 4 seconds.

Beagle Active Probe -- No longer counters ECM.


Modules:

Seismic Sensor -- Range decreased from 200/400 to 180/280.



"Like" it, if you like it and flame away if you don't. Add your own idea if you wish. Lets have a discussion going.


Posted Image

Edited by El Bandito, 03 August 2013 - 07:48 AM.


#2 El Bandito

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 05:46 PM

Hmm, thought if will at least generate some feedback. ;)

#3 Nothing Whatsoever

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 06:02 PM

Well, with the AC/2 I would instead increase the cooldown to .75 instead of changing heat. I'd be fine with the other tweaks.

#4 AntiCitizenJuan

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 06:06 PM

Yes to it all

#5 Sug

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 06:26 PM

View PostEl Bandito, on 10 July 2013 - 05:46 PM, said:

Hmm, thought if will at least generate some feedback. ;)


We're tired of commenting on things that have been proposed over and over for a year now.

But yeah, they're good ideas. Just the 6th time i've seen them.

#6 El Bandito

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 08:27 PM

View PostPraetor Shepard, on 10 July 2013 - 06:02 PM, said:

Well, with the AC/2 I would instead increase the cooldown to .75 instead of changing heat. I'd be fine with the other tweaks.


Do you personally feel that AC2s are doing more damage than the others?

#7 Nothing Whatsoever

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 09:04 PM

View PostEl Bandito, on 10 July 2013 - 08:27 PM, said:


Do you personally feel that AC2s are doing more damage than the others?


I've tried 4x AC/2 on both the CTF-4X and the Jagers that can run that, what I've seen is they might fire too fast for all hits to register properly (even with good aim), but they can still tear through armor even with that, if you can maintain aim on a target they can do a alot of damage and the heat can get high but manageable without using chain fire. (I grouped by arm so left mouse left arm, right mouse for right arm, and getting too hot I'd switch to firing two AC/2 at a time to manage heat.)

I've also tried three on the Ilya, but there are better combos for that mech (and at some point I might get a Dragon or Victor for 3xAC/2 dakka).


So, I figured if the cooldown was raised they could fire together longer with better ammo usage. As PPCs showed with the cooldown increase, PPC's actually became easier to manage heat with, so I thought the same could work with the AC/2.



Edit: Eventually I need to find a better place to host images, but I wanted to share something I've been working on where I'm trying to look at how different loadouts compare, and to see what could be tweaked to make suggestions for improvement. It's far from complete and I need to make certain that the math is right, but it's a starting point I hope.

This first one is looking at Damage over time of ballistic weapons combos and how they compare
Spoiler


This second one is with a change to AC/2s to a .75 cooldown.
Spoiler

Edited by Praetor Shepard, 10 July 2013 - 09:36 PM.


#8 Sybreed

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 09:30 PM

they need to remove the HP on NARC. The fact that if I fire NARC on a target that gets hit by 3 PPCs right after kills the beacon is simply mind shattering stupid. Otherwise, I'd say reduce the LB-X spread by another 50% so all the pellets can hit the target at 540m like it's supposed to.

#9 Typhoon Storm 2142

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 12:08 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 10 July 2013 - 05:46 PM, said:

Hmm, thought if will at least generate some feedback. B)


Sorry, but after seeing for the 36th time, that someone claimed, he's got the "proper" values for balancing the weapons, I just thought: "Not again - making up numbers in the head and assuming it's going to make the game better, without even some form of live-testing with professionals is a mighty proposal and probably not improving anything."

#10 El Bandito

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 02:12 AM

View PostTyphoon Storm 2142, on 11 July 2013 - 12:08 AM, said:

Sorry, but after seeing for the 36th time, that someone claimed, he's got the "proper" values for balancing the weapons, I just thought: "Not again - making up numbers in the head and assuming it's going to make the game better, without even some form of live-testing with professionals is a mighty proposal and probably not improving anything."


Not that live testing had produced any good balance in this game. Just saying.

#11 Typhoon Storm 2142

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 03:15 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 11 July 2013 - 02:12 AM, said:


Not that live testing had produced any good balance in this game. Just saying.

I disagree. Just saying.

#12 El Bandito

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 03:38 AM

View PostTyphoon Storm 2142, on 11 July 2013 - 03:15 AM, said:

I disagree. Just saying.


Might telling me why do you disagree? It is just a temporary and easy to do balance changes that will bring more diversity and fun back to MWO.

Currently there are PPC spams everywhere, and most other builds are sub-optimal in comparison. AC10 and AC5 are in need of buffs for the longest time. Brawlers--especially Mediums--lack good weapon at close range and hill hump sniping is the norm. LB10X might as well be non-existent. ECM is still cockblock and as a consequence LRMs are joke at high level plays. Pulse lasers are straight up less desirable than regular lasers and the Large Pulse Laser nerf was basically akin to kicking a wounded puppy.

Judging from the LRMapocalypse that happened twice in this year, one can even question if PGI actually test their changes AT ALL.

Hell, most of the "good" balance changes happened thanks to the community outcry, not PGI. Judging from PGI's matches with the community and load-outs used in those matches, they have little idea on current balance situation is. Developers not even being good at their own game poses its own unique problem. If not for the community, we probably would still have the broke *** Splatcats running amok.

I am hoping the 12 vs. 12 matches will offer PGI good feedbacks that actually sticks because 12 vs. 12 will multiply the above balance deficiencies even more. Granted, my proposed changes are far from perfect but it is never meant to be the final solution.

Just saying.

Edited by El Bandito, 11 July 2013 - 05:08 AM.


#13 Typhoon Storm 2142

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 05:10 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 11 July 2013 - 03:38 AM, said:

On what basis do you disagree?


I disagree because I don't think the game is really unbalanced. Sure, some things can be improved to make it even more fun to play, but your tossing around numbers won't do any good.

You're right, there are alot of PPC's featured in many builds. There has to be done something to create more diversity, that doesn't involve more nerfing or buffing of any kind. Ladies and Gentlemen, here I present the solution to overpowered PPC alpha strikes:

Remove torso weapon convergency

Because torso weapons don't have actuators
Because torso weapons don't move at all
Because torso weapons LoF never cross paths
Because torso weapons never hit inside the crosshair

Weapons mounted in arms with lower actuators can have convergency, after aiming at a target for maybe 2 or 3 seconds.

If MWO does this, we will have harmony and balance for all weapons. Sniping will become more dangerous and less effective.

Edited by Typhoon Storm 2142, 11 July 2013 - 11:14 PM.


#14 El Bandito

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 05:35 AM

View PostTyphoon Storm 2142, on 11 July 2013 - 05:10 AM, said:

I disagree because I don't think the game is really unbalanced. Sure, some things can be improved to make it even more fun to play, but your tossing around numbers won't do any good. You're right, there are alot of PPC's featured in many builds. There has to be done something to create more diversity, that doesn't involve more nerfing or buffing of any kind. Ladies and Gentlemen, here I present the solution to overpowered PPC alpha strikes: Remove torso weapon convergence Because torso weapons don't have actuators Because torso weapons don't move at all Because torso weapons LoF never cross paths Because torso weapons never hit inside the crosshair Weapons mounted in arms with lower actuators can have convergency, after aiming at a target for maybe 2 or 3 seconds. If MWO does this, we will have harmony and balance for all weapons. Sniping will become more dangerous and less effective.


Yes, the arm/torso convergence can be an effective way to curb sniping and I support mechanics like that. However, remember that my idea is made to be easy and fast to implement while waiting for PGI's own complicated changes--hence only stats change. If I wanted to fundamentally change the weapons shooting mechanics, I have tons of other ideas. But I won't post it here. I just want fast change to make the next 2 weeks bearable.

Edited by El Bandito, 11 July 2013 - 08:33 PM.


#15 BillyM

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 07:22 AM

yep yep and yep, except the AC2 stuff, it's hot because DPS is through the roof.

Those changes go in next patch, and I take $80 I plan to spend on Star Citizen and buy a phoenix pkg instead...

--billyM

Edited by BillyM, 11 July 2013 - 07:23 AM.


#16 El Bandito

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 07:50 AM

View PostPraetor Shepard, on 10 July 2013 - 09:04 PM, said:

I've tried 4x AC/2 on both the CTF-4X and the Jagers that can run that, what I've seen is they might fire too fast for all hits to register properly (even with good aim), but they can still tear through armor even with that, if you can maintain aim on a target they can do a alot of damage and the heat can get high but manageable without using chain fire. (I grouped by arm so left mouse left arm, right mouse for right arm, and getting too hot I'd switch to firing two AC/2 at a time to manage heat.) I've also tried three on the Ilya, but there are better combos for that mech (and at some point I might get a Dragon or Victor for 3xAC/2 dakka). So, I figured if the cooldown was raised they could fire together longer with better ammo usage. As PPCs showed with the cooldown increase, PPC's actually became easier to manage heat with, so I thought the same could work with the AC/2. Edit: Eventually I need to find a better place to host images, but I wanted to share something I've been working on where I'm trying to look at how different loadouts compare, and to see what could be tweaked to make suggestions for improvement. It's far from complete and I need to make certain that the math is right, but it's a starting point I hope. This first one is looking at Damage over time of ballistic weapons combos and how they compare
Spoiler
This second one is with a change to AC/2s to a .75 cooldown.
Spoiler


Ok, from what you showed me and what BillyM told me, I gather the AC2 can reach more DPS than it's brothers. I do not know how PGI's stacking heat penalty on boated weapons will work 100% but I will lower the rate-of-fire of AC2, as you suggested.

Edited by El Bandito, 11 July 2013 - 07:51 AM.


#17 Nothing Whatsoever

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 09:19 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 11 July 2013 - 07:50 AM, said:


Ok, from what you showed me and what BillyM told me, I gather the AC2 can reach more DPS than it's brothers. I do not know how PGI's stacking heat penalty on boated weapons will work 100% but I will lower the rate-of-fire of AC2, as you suggested.


In the right situations it can be deadly. It's easy to take a build with them for granted since only certain mechs can boat enough AC/2 to stack their DPS capacity properly.

As the Victors get used more, I expect to see a few VTR-9Bs like this around, effectively grouping three AC/2 and bringing a good amount of ammo and heat sinks they will be annoying to fight with their combination of armor, speed and JJs.



The devs very likely have a database with stats like I was trying to make and then some. I just wish we could get some kind of detail like that one post on the Hud Bug as to how the balancing process works out, to get a better sense of why they are testing out those penalties that have been mentioned over other possible approaches.

#18 El Bandito

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 11:47 AM

Seems heat penalty will be implemented in the next patch.

http://mwomercs.com/...general-update/

PPC boats will take huge hit since regular PPC and ERPPC will count as one and the same, according to Paul. Dual AC20 will be hotter than before but no mention of AC2 or AC5. Safe to boat them as usual.

#19 El Bandito

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 05:54 PM

View PostPraetor Shepard, on 11 July 2013 - 09:19 AM, said:

In the right situations it can be deadly. It's easy to take a build with them for granted since only certain mechs can boat enough AC/2 to stack their DPS capacity properly. As the Victors get used more, I expect to see a few VTR-9Bs like this around, effectively grouping three AC/2 and bringing a good amount of ammo and heat sinks they will be annoying to fight with their combination of armor, speed and JJs. The devs very likely have a database with stats like I was trying to make and then some. I just wish we could get some kind of detail like that one post on the Hud Bug as to how the balancing process works out, to get a better sense of why they are testing out those penalties that have been mentioned over other possible approaches.


Ah the big brother of Dragon-5N.

Edited by El Bandito, 11 July 2013 - 05:55 PM.


#20 5th Fedcom Rat

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 10:44 PM

I like most of your suggestions. Only thing is, you conveniently forgot about nerfing streaks, Mr. Streak Cat. :P

.

Edited by 5th Fedcom Rat, 11 July 2013 - 10:44 PM.






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