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Fundamental Flaws In The Boating Penalties


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#1 Peter2000

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 08:22 AM

Aside from the obvious loopholes I expect PGI to fix soonTM, such as the PPC/ERPPC, SRM6/SRM4, LRM20/LRM15 - there is a fundamental design flaw in the penalty system. Namely, people can still do pinpoint alphas and absolutely nail you. Here are some examples:

2xERPPC+Gauss: A mainstay on jump-snipers, especially the CTF-3D, there's no way of nerfing such a combo via the boating penalty without crippling any build that uses PPCs at all (at which point, you may want to just look into PPCs separately). 35 pinpoint alpha at both the longest and shortest range is incredibly strong, and you get it for only 23 heat!

4xERPPC/PPC: Wait - I thought these guys were supposed to get killed by this nerf? NOPE!!! They're either going to take the shot in a sniper exchange (which will just get longer and slower), or fire 2/2 when they're being closed on. There's a reason*, and it's the meta, which PGI doesn't seem to understand.

Gauss-Boats: Probably the reason PGI still hasn't released an assault that can carry 2 or more ballistics bigger than a UAC/5 is concern over boating this weapon (a really, really silly way of trying to balance ballistics). Gauss generates virtually no heat. Gauss boats don't have tonnage for much else - maybe a pair of mediums. The heat penalty doesn't really impact them in a meaningful way.

AC/40 Jager/Cata: OK, these guys do take an appreciable DPS hit. Still, their powerful hit will mean they are still used, and barring an SRM buff, they will remain among the most useful brawlers (I know, in the current meta that's an oxymoron...) on the field. We may even see some AC/20+Gauss monstrosities on the field.


So, what to do?

There are many solutions floating around the forums on how to deal with this. Many are good, many are bad. The key parts are to ensure that you are focusing on alphas, not boating, and add front-loaded penalties.

Alphas are what kill people really fast, and result in massive damage being applied to a single component. Boating derives its strength through two forces: first, weapon imbalance - if you boat a weapon that is really strong, you now only carry really strong weapons. However, this can be mitigated by proper weapon balance. Second, through alphas themselves. Boated weapons are so effective because they all behave the same. With convergence working, firing multiples of the same weapon will almost always result in component-specific damage (whereas firing a medium laser and SRM simultaneously at a moving target probably will not).

Secondly, pinpoint alphas are really, really, strong. It is really hard to design a system that doesn't massively impact other play styles that will punish them enough that it won't be worth a bit extra heat to blow that Jager's XL side torso off in 1 or 2 hits. Instead, add the penalty BEFORE the weapon fire/hit is computed - so that it prevents the shot, or at least makes it harder. If you don't want 40- to 60-point alphas, just hit those with convergence/cone-of-fire penalties!

One option very well received by the community that would do this can be found here. Never seen so many upvotes on a suggestion. PGI - this man is NOT "on an island".

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*As I said in an extremely well-received thread:

Quote

One of the most popular builds at the moment is the Stalker with 4 PPCs (often ER, but sometimes a mix of standards or even all PPC). They “ridge hump” to expose themselves to minimal return fire - cresting just the head and arms for a second, shooting, and dropping back down. The game often boils down into two broad stages - first is the sniping phase. Here, the team crests, fires, and drops down to cool off and take cover. Heat is of minimal concern, since you should be safe from any return fire until you decide to crest again - so a 10 heat penalty can be shrugged off if needed. The second phase is encountered when one side tries to push up on the other. For lack of a better word, it is the brawl, when cover is, to a large extent, negated. Here DPS comes into play significantly more - making the penalty meaningful. However, PPCs and ERPPCs generate heat very quickly - even just firing 3 at a time at cool down will quickly bring you to max heat capacity. The extra little bit of alpha would be nice, but is ultimately superfluous during the brawl. Moreover, many other highly effective builds feature Gauss with 2 or 3 ERPPCs - which would not at all be impacted by this change.

Edited by Peter2000, 12 July 2013 - 08:24 AM.


#2 Howdy Doody

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 08:24 AM

I want to play in the new system before commenting.

#3 FupDup

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 08:24 AM

Inb4 the white knights arrive.


EDIT: Godd@mnit they beat me to the thread.

Edited by FupDup, 12 July 2013 - 08:25 AM.


#4 Deathlike

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 08:30 AM

View PostFupDup, on 12 July 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:

Inb4 the white knights arrive.


EDIT: Godd@mnit they beat me to the thread.


My reaction:


Inb4 lock.

#5 Peter2000

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 08:32 AM

View PostDeathlike, on 12 July 2013 - 08:30 AM, said:


My reaction:


Inb4 lock.


Why am I going to get locked? I'm actually trying to discuss gameplay balance in a constructive way (unlike most of the garbage on these forums).

#6 FupDup

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 08:33 AM

View PostPeter2000, on 12 July 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:


Why am I going to get locked? I'm actually trying to discuss gameplay balance in a constructive way (unlike most of the garbage on these forums).

That's probably why it'll get locked. B)

#7 pencilboom

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 08:33 AM

get down from your f.u.c.k.i.n.g high horse PGI, and listen to Homeless Bill's proposal. IF in the end you rejects it, please give us a proper explanation why it won't work ( though I really hope that PGI actually listen to Homeless' idea ). as of right now your game is utter joke. heat penalties are just a band aid. it doesn't fix the flaws you have. If you want to give people freedom with no hardpoint restrictions, then fine. But please do setup a proper mechanics to prevent people from abusing it. Homeless Bill's idea is one of the solution. It goes a long way

#8 Mongoose Trueborn

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 08:33 AM

Relative speed and armor need to increase so that brawlers can close on snipers.

#9 Howdy Doody

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 08:35 AM

And I didn't mean to sound smug in any way with a short response. I just think this system is to different to really get into it on paper. I really want to get in there and see what happens.

Another change that I think is a HUGE key, is Overheat damage will now start at 100% overheat instead of 120%. The penalty for overheating could get pretty crazy.

#10 Deathlike

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 08:38 AM

View PostPeter2000, on 12 July 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

Why am I going to get locked? I'm actually trying to discuss gameplay balance in a constructive way (unlike most of the garbage on these forums).


Have you seen the trail of the locked threads? Take three guesses as to why they were locked (and two of them don't count).

I'm pretty sure most of us can have a civil discussion about it... but unfortunately, it must be in the sacred thread, that no dev (especially Paul) will read outright.

View PostHowdy Doody, on 12 July 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

And I didn't mean to sound smug in any way with a short response. I just think this system is to different to really get into it on paper. I really want to get in there and see what happens.


I'm pretty sure we can extract the info from the game itself, like what is already done now to get a potential opinion.

Quote

Another change that I think is a HUGE key, is Overheat damage will now start at 100% overheat instead of 120%. The penalty for overheating could get pretty crazy.


This is quite a bit unforgiving... tell this to the newbie that doesn't have a grasp at heat management... just imagine newbies in the stock BJ-1X blowing themselves out due to the new system.

#11 FupDup

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 08:40 AM

View PostDeathlike, on 12 July 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:

Have you seen the trail of the locked threads? Take three guesses as to why they were locked (and two of them don't count).

I'm pretty sure most of us can have a civil discussion about it... but unfortunately, it must be in the sacred thread, that no dev (especially Paul) will read outright.

What threads might those be? I wasn't here to see them.

#12 Deathlike

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 08:51 AM

View PostFupDup, on 12 July 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

What threads might those be? I wasn't here to see them.


Just "load more threads" or goto the 2nd page of threads on this board/subforum. Someone was busy.

Edited by Deathlike, 12 July 2013 - 08:51 AM.


#13 Peter2000

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 08:56 AM

View PostDeathlike, on 12 July 2013 - 08:51 AM, said:


Just "load more threads" or goto the 2nd page of threads on this board/subforum. Someone was busy.


Oh wow! You are right - one of the mods really is crushing every single thread on this issue (and only this issue). Hopefully Prosperity Park took over - he's usually more reasonable. Those massively combined threads are impossible to have any discussion in, and I already gave my feedback there.

Edited by Peter2000, 12 July 2013 - 08:56 AM.


#14 Peter2000

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 09:58 AM

View PostHowdy Doody, on 12 July 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:

I want to play in the new system before commenting.


To get back on topic...

As I've said elsewhere, if there are obvious loopholes in a system before it's even tested, that's a really bad sign. Especially when these loopholes are actually the exact thing that's supposedly being nerfed.

#15 Tennex

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 10:12 AM

they said they would put PPC and ERPPC under a shared penalty.

2PPC + Gauss will still be playble. But its more bearable than 3PPC+gauss. or 4PPC altogether.

Edited by Tennex, 12 July 2013 - 10:13 AM.


#16 DaZur

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 10:48 AM

View PostFupDup, on 12 July 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:

Inb4 the white knights arrive.


EDIT: Godd@mnit they beat me to the thread.

Man... It's getting really tiresome to keep donning my armor and field mount my white steed... B)

Edited by DaZur, 12 July 2013 - 10:49 AM.


#17 Egomane

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 11:09 AM

Please use the official feedback thread for the discussion of the upcoming heatscale changes.

http://mwomercs.com/...pdate-feedback/

This thread is now closed!





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