109 replies to this topic

[Corvus Antaka]

I think mediums are just fine. nobody should expect lights or meds to compete with the heavier classes, a heavy mech is really just better than a medium. Mediums shine with tonnage limits, ton for ton nothing is as cost efficient as a medium mech - something that should be reflected in how PGI determines tonnage limits for matches.

no one would put a rookie in an assault mech. given its a video game a better solution is tonnage limits, rookies will then turn to lights & mediums to learn the game and assaults will be run by pilots who can excel in those tonnages and take down multiple lights or medium mechs.

Edited by Colonel Pada Vinson, 19 July 2013 - 02:13 PM.

[PEEFsmash]

Prosperity Park, on 19 July 2013 - 12:36 PM, said:

Worst suggestion ever? You need to spend more time on the forums

When you say "Big Weapons Platforms" do you mean they should not carry Big Weapons, or just not huge lots of firepower? I think that Medium Mechs do have the potential to carry large amounts of weapons, yes.

Does anyone here own a Hunchback 4SP? It has two 6-tube launchers for launching SRMs in the Torsos, but only 2 Missile Hardpoints total to do it with. If the Hunchback 4SP was randomly assigned to the Heavy Mech class, then it would have been given 4 missile hardpoints.

And what would it do with those, while still utilizing all of those laser HPs?

[jeffsw6]

Prosperity Park, on 16 July 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

More hardpoints means the capacity to carry more lightweight, short-range weapons -> means more use overall of those Mechs and more brawling. The Stalker, for example, is 85 tons

There, I fixed it for you.

Mediums (and heavies, to an extent) struggle because they can't carry large ballistic weapons and still have room for any other armaments, STD engine, etc.

AC/2 generates a lot of heat and has high RoF, giving you little time to torso-twist, maneuver, run, etc. Even with those drawbacks, it weighs 6 tons. There is nothing lighter. Don't try to convince yourself that Machine Guns are useful, because they are still crap even as a side-weapon; and certainly cannot be your main source of damage.

Streaks are broken. SRMs are broken (even with the recent damage buff.) LRMs need to be boated in huge numbers, and that is not appropriate for a medium. Even the catapult takes a back-seat to the Stalker as an LRM platform.

This means the main weapons of mediums and heavies are going to be energy-weapons. If they had more useful energy hard-points, sure, they could boat more MLs or MPLs, and engage at short-range with high-alpha, high-heat builds.

Do you want a dozen different mechs that are played similarly to the 9ML Hunchback or 6ML Jenner? That's really the only weapons-specific option for buffing mediums, aside from:

• adding more ballistic weapons to the game, lower-weight ones
  
• fixing SRMs and Streaks (which PGI is most likely trying to do)
  
• making LRMs useful when not boated (they aren't even talking about this)

So you see, broken missiles and lack of ballistic weapon-choices appropriate to mediums is something that basically cripples them. If we had more urban maps that promote brawling it might be a little different, because said mediums might be able to out-maneuver assaults through rows of buildings, except the introduction of seismic sensor will make it impossible for them to ever surprise / flank an assault in such an environment.

The prospects for medium mechs are very dim without repair & rearm, tonnage limits, or other non-game-play incentives to play those mechs.

[Deathlike]

Prosperity Park, on 19 July 2013 - 12:36 PM, said:

Worst suggestion ever? You need to spend more time on the forums

Well, it's one of the worst suggestion relative to the group of mechs and the buff you are advocating for.

Quote

When you say "Big Weapons Platforms" do you mean they should not carry Big Weapons, or just not huge lots of firepower? I think that Medium Mechs do have the potential to carry large amounts of weapons, yes.

It doesn't really matter which... whether you boat big tonnage weapons (PPCs/Gauss) or lots of smaller ones (med lasers, SRMs)... you simply do not have enough tonnage to make it all work.

If you even add one energy slot to allow for another SL, ML, SPL, MPL, you still have to commit to DHS to cool them off.

If you even add one missile slot to allow for even another LRM5/SRM4/SSRM2, you have to make sure you have enough ammo to dish out at the target and/or more DHS to cool them down (classic Cent-A is actually hotter than you'd think).

If you even add one ballistic slot to allow for... another MG... well, I'll just laugh even louder at you.

Do you see the problem with your logic?

Mediums primarily suffer from being... slow, and not having enough armor to survive any serious alpha long term. Even if you were to use mediums correctly (which requires a reasonable high skill level), it doesn't take much harder than one or two good alpha to cripple you. It's like being a slow light (you're going to die quick). Adding more firepower to a medium (HBK-4P being the most powerful of the bunch, although being nerfed), you still suffer from the same problem... waaaay too slow, and being an easy target to gib.

Edited by Deathlike, 19 July 2013 - 02:44 PM.

[Monky]

Prosperity Park, on 19 July 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

I'm not saying that an increase in harpdoints is "all it would take" to make the Medium Class what it should be: the default go-to Mechs of the IS. More speed and more maneuverability would be nice additions, as well as the ability to optionally carry more firepower.

I want to see what the opponents of this idea have to say:

How would adding more hardpoints to the Medium Mechs detract from the current Gameplay experience? (please refrain from saying "it would not help," as I am currently asking how it would *hurt.* Failure to solve a problem without causing any observable harm does not constitute a detraction from the current gameplay experience.)

The only benefit it would have by itself is adding more variety of medium mech loadouts to gib.

The most practical configurations on mediums involving many hardpoints are laser or missile heavy, as machineguns still aren't deadly enough to have a real role in combat (though they are getting closer). We already have this - trebuchets have lots of missile hardpoints, and hunchbacks and cicadas and blackjacks can mount lots of energy hardpoints, and they still die just as quickly either way. Adding more hardpoints is simply a moot point - it could be 'cool' but it won't mean anything if they're still going no faster than the fastest heavies.

The reasoning behind this is simple; fewer hardpoints can make up for the lack of diversity by front loading high damage configurations (2/3 ppc 1 gauss, 3/4 hardpoints, for example), and has proven to be more effective in general than boating many small weapons. Small weapons would be the only thing mediums could really fit, therefore this logical exercise has come to conclusion.

[MustrumRidcully]

Prosperity Park, on 19 July 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

I'm not saying that an increase in harpdoints is "all it would take" to make the Medium Class what it should be: the default go-to Mechs of the IS. More speed and more maneuverability would be nice additions, as well as the ability to optionally carry more firepower.

I want to see what the opponents of this idea have to say:

How would adding more hardpoints to the Medium Mechs detract from the current Gameplay experience? (please refrain from saying "it would not help," as I am currently asking how it would *hurt.* Failure to solve a problem without causing any observable harm does not constitute a detraction from the current gameplay experience.)

Primarily, it would just not help, but how it would hurt:
It might just get people to build more boats, and we don't really need or want more of them. It makes them all identical.

If you just add ballistic hard points, you can't change anything. These mechs will not really be able to carry more than 1 or 2, and boating MGs will still not be a good idea.

If you add missile hard points - the LRMs are basically already maxxed out, so you can maybe squeeze in a 4th SRMs. But again, that's just "boating a bit more" (with a weapon that even doesn't gain all those pinpoint convergence advantages other boats get).

So you're left with energy weapons - which means you can only really get more medium laser boats. But we already have the Black Jack and the HBK-4P for that, do we need any more?


You might also hurt because some newbies might think "oh, mediums have a lot of hard points, that's great" before they realize: "Oh, Mediums cannot even carry all those heavier guns, so it's kinda moot to have so many hardpoints."

[Felicitatem Parco]

PEEFsmash, on 19 July 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

And what would it do with those [4 missile hardpoints], while still utilizing all of those laser HPs?

Like I posted earlier in this thread, drop some MLs and Heatsinks, drop Artemis, and add more SRMs. Alternatively, mount 2SRM6 and 2 Streak Launchers. Or 2SRM6 and some LRM5. Or 2LRm5 and 2 Streaks and a moderate amount of En. Or use all the En Points and just load 4 streaks....

[Murzao]

Prosperity Park, on 19 July 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

Like I posted earlier in this thread, drop some MLs and Heatsinks, drop Artemis, and add more SRMs. Alternatively, mount 2SRM6 and 2 Streak Launchers. Or 2SRM6 and some LRM5. Or 2LRm5 and 2 Streaks and a moderate amount of En. Or use all the En Points and just load 4 streaks....

And if a Locust had 25 energy hardpoints he could load 25 PPCs.....but he doesn't have the tonnage for that. And neither does any medium unless you go super small aka MGs/SLs. And hate to break it to you but 3 SRM2s=1SRM6.

Edited by Murzao, 19 July 2013 - 05:34 PM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Murzao, on 19 July 2013 - 05:33 PM, said:

And hate to break it to you but 3 SRM2s=1SRM6.

But with the SRMs that will practically be pin-point from the SRM 2s and a quicker cooldown. The difference is also having more heat with the SRM 2s over the 1 SRM 6, but more damage on a component.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Murzao, on 19 July 2013 - 05:33 PM, said:

And if a Locust had 25 energy hardpoints he could load 25 PPCs.....but he doesn't have the tonnage for that.

PPCs are neither light nor short-ranged. Please try to stay on-topic.

I had ran 4SRM6 Hunchbacks to great success before, so if you're telling me it's impossible then you might wanna try not doing that anymore. I played the 4SRM6 Hunchback, and it was good.

I miss it.

Sure, it'd be subject to heat penalty, but I'd probably run 2SRM6 and 2SRM4 to save the 2 tons, anyways.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 19 July 2013 - 05:58 PM.

[Roland]

Perhaps a better change would be to make it such that hardpoints had size limits, so that mechs like the stalker couldn't fill up all of its hardpoints, which originally carried things like medium lasers and narcs, with the biggest weapons in those classes.

Seems like that would make more sense than giving medium mechs more hardpoints that they could use to.. what... carry machine guns? LBX 10's?

Medium mechs tend to be weight constrained, more than hardpoint constrained.

[PEEFsmash]

Prosperity Park, on 19 July 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

Like I posted earlier in this thread, drop some MLs and Heatsinks, drop Artemis, and add more SRMs. Alternatively, mount 2SRM6 and 2 Streak Launchers. Or 2SRM6 and some LRM5. Or 2LRm5 and 2 Streaks and a moderate amount of En. Or use all the En Points and just load 4 streaks....

So your idea is to increase hardpoints...then abandon some of those hardpoints? You are seeing that it isn't about # of hardpoints, you can't even utilize all of the HPs that you are asking for. Or is your big grand statement just that you want there to be a medium splatcat?

[Davers]

DoubleEdged, on 19 July 2013 - 06:10 AM, said:

I'm not suppose to be able to 1v1 an Assault or Heavy in the face.

If we're on these support roles, and forced to scout, then we're missing speed and become a big target.

If we're running scouting, we're missing damage or armor and missing an ability to properly support.

Mediums are technically suppose to be a Jack of All Trades, Master of None. I find I am currently still unable to do this.

jakucha, on 16 July 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

Mediums aren't supposed to be able to compete with most heavies and any assaults unless in bigger groups.

This is one of the problems with medium mechs. No one wants to play the mech that isn't supposed to fight 50% of other mechs (heavy and assaults). That's how we ended up with most matches having 75% of each team being heavy or assault mechs.

[jakucha]

Davers, on 19 July 2013 - 07:07 PM, said:

This is one of the problems with medium mechs. No one wants to play the mech that isn't supposed to fight 50% of other mechs (heavy and assaults). That's how we ended up with most matches having 75% of each team being heavy or assault mechs.

Yep. I play mediums very often, but the only way to get it balanced is to force it I suppose.

[Felicitatem Parco]

PEEFsmash, on 19 July 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

So your idea is to increase hardpoints...then abandon some of those hardpoints? You are seeing that it isn't about # of hardpoints, you can't even utilize all of the HPs that you are asking for. Or is your big grand statement just that you want there to be a medium splatcat?

I am stating that more hardpoints = more *choice* for brawling. And it's not just the 4SP. I think the 4J with 1 or 2 more missile hardpoints would provide more varied loadouts that include SRM6, adding ore ballistic points to the Cents would give the chance to mount more MG's, more hdpnts on the Trebs would make them more useful for something other than just LRMs...

I feel that Big Mechs should use theuir hardpoints for big weapons, and smaller Mechs hsould have the chance to balance that with a large number of smaller weapons. Adding more hdpnts would give that as an option in many cases where that option is not really available. I guess that SRMs are a key factor in my line-of-thought here as they are often referred to as the "Brawler's Best Friend."

Edited by Prosperity Park, 19 July 2013 - 07:19 PM.

[Deathlike]

So... SRMs are the only weapon of choice for brawling...

Yet we can't balance LBX in any way to serve such a role.

We don't even have an energy weapon equivalent for brawling (people have suggested redoing Pulse Lasers to serve that purpose).

But... we want more SRMs... and more mini-AI halfsplatcats.

Just... mindboggling.

Edited by Deathlike, 19 July 2013 - 10:22 PM.

[PEEFsmash]

Prosperity Park, on 19 July 2013 - 07:18 PM, said:

I am stating that more hardpoints = more *choice* for brawling. And it's not just the 4SP. I think the 4J with 1 or 2 more missile hardpoints would provide more varied loadouts that include SRM6, adding ore ballistic points to the Cents would give the chance to mount more MG's, more hdpnts on the Trebs would make them more useful for something other than just LRMs...

I feel that Big Mechs should use theuir hardpoints for big weapons, and smaller Mechs hsould have the chance to balance that with a large number of smaller weapons. Adding more hdpnts would give that as an option in many cases where that option is not really available. I guess that SRMs are a key factor in my line-of-thought here as they are often referred to as the "Brawler's Best Friend."

So, like I said, it isn't that you want more options in general...we already have Laser/Missile mixes, Laser boats, missile boats with a bit of laser, even ballistic boats and ballistic mixed with energy....you just want a EVEN MORE BOATY missile medium...That might be an okay build but...it won't change the fate of mediums. YOu want a 4 missile hardpoint medium. That's all, because mediums have everything else when it comes to HPs already.

[Deathlike]

Prosperity... you are better off asking for a Dervish.

It's a 55ton mech that is primarily a missile boat and fits within your parameters. Why don't you just ask for that?

Edited by Deathlike, 19 July 2013 - 09:28 PM.

[Sephlock]

Deathlike, on 19 July 2013 - 09:27 PM, said:

Prosperity... you are better off asking for a Dervish.

It's a 55ton mech that is primarily a missile boat and fits within your parameters. Why don't you just ask for that?

Because PGI would make it GIGANTIC, like a brick with two bricks for legs, like the OTHER medium missile boat .

[Deathlike]

Sephlock, on 19 July 2013 - 09:32 PM, said:

Because PGI would make it GIGANTIC, like a brick with two bricks for legs, like the OTHER medium missile boat .

Of course, but he'd get his natural 4 missile hardpoints... ready to go (primary variant has it).