242 replies to this topic

[Victor Morson]

Hey everyone. I've moved my focus to my new thread, http://mwomercs.com/...petitive-level/ - that thread I am attempting to update at least once a week (after weapons can be evaluated) and am monitoring a lot better for upcoming balance changes.

At the time of this writing, this list is still pretty much completely accurate (MGs got re-nerf'ed, Ultras got brought up, Streaks got untrashed - maybe) and there's several conversations going, so I will leave the thread open and check in from time to time none the less.

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There's plenty of guides out there, but after seeing a massive decline in build quality even amongst pugs lately, I figure this is worth repeating - the list of what not to do. [BUT WHAT IF...] No, not even then! NEVER!

1: Mount a Large Pulse Laser, AC/5, AC/10, LBX/10, Machine Gun, Flamer, ER Large Laser, Medium Pulse Laser, NARC, or less LRMs (per volley) than 20. These guns are horrendous and you're already gimping your build right out of the gate with them! Try better guns.

2: Assume people won't cap you because of "honor." They're going to cap you. If you're getting in a light/medium 'mech, and you see someone going for your base, it's your role to try to stop them. Stop just waltzing by and assuming the heavies will go back for it!

3: Freezing like a deer in headlights at LRM boats. In particular in casual PUG games, LRM boats are very very easy to counter. You just have to rush up on them so they cannot defend themselves up close, or stay at a distance popping shots out of their range near steep cover. Don't just ignore them or wander around in circles. I've seen LRM boats take out teams that could smash them 50 times over! Next time you see an LRM 'mech, try to figure out how to exploit it's blind spots!

4: Storing your ammo in your XL Engine side. More 'mechs die to this than anything. Jam it in your arms, head, legs.. but stop sticking it in the side that will cause you to die if it blows up! I kill more 'mechs to that..

5: Taking horrendously mismatched weaponry. Don't take a fast firing gun, a slow firing gun, a long firing gun, a fast firing gun and then configure them in a way you need to fire a little at a time. You're making your build a mess. You either want to go sustained damage of burst damage, but mounting both is a one way ticket to failure.

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In the interest of reminding everyone to "stay calm" after the SRM buff / heat nerf, I'd like to recommend you all:

- PPC, ER PPC, and Gauss still are top tier and work well in tandem. Consider them!
- AC/20s and SRMs work reasonably well together, allowing for an infighter build.
- Large Lasers are terrible now. You need more than 2 to be effective, which ruins your heat.
- Streaks are terrible now. Swap them for regular SRMs for a big boost in damage!
- Medium lasers are still a reliable backup and are far better than MPL or SPL.
- I cannot stress again how bad the guns in #1 point are, be it for the ER Large's long discharge (making it awful at sniping), the LPL's horrendous heat-to-damage or small LRM clusters inability to pierce AMS. Stop trying to make it work, it just won't!

Edited by Victor Morson, 23 August 2013 - 05:11 AM.

[Navy Sixes]

I found some good ideas here that had me running to smurfy, reconsidering my next build. Thanks!

[Modo44]

The "weapons to avoid" list is pretty silly. All of those have their place, just not on your cookie-cutter Highlander.

[Rushin Roulette]

You forgot to add a point;

6: Reading this list.


Point 1 is more or less just useless. Every weapon has its place and use on a build (Although I am really struggling to find one for the NARC launcher).

Edited by Rushin Roulette, 25 July 2013 - 05:11 AM.

[Allied]

Victor Morson, on 25 July 2013 - 03:30 AM, said:

1: Mount a Large Pulse Laser, AC/5, AC/10, Machine Gun, Flamer, ER Large Laser, Medium Pulse Laser, NARC, or less LRMs than 20. These guns are horrendous and you're already gimping your build right out of the gate with them! Try better guns.

O_o

I disagree with pretty much the entirety of this point. ER Large Lasers could use some reworking since PPC's are more effective currently in pretty much every aspect. NARCs too, Kind of worthless unless they get some love. Maybe if they kept the enemy mech lockable regardless of sight.

Why so much hate on Pulse lasers? I should introduce you to my Awesome 8Q.

[Bloodweaver]

Point 1: Not terrible overall, but completely wrong about LRM-20s. Generally speaking, the best LRM weapon is the 15, with Artemis added on. But even that becomes a waste of tonnage if your 'mech only has enough tubes to launch ten missiles or fewer per salvo.

Point 2: Yes.

Point 3: Yes.

Point 4: Depends, actually. A lot of 'mechs are better off putting ammo in the torsos than in the legs, even with XL engines. There are multiple possible reasons that this would be a better option:
1) Your specific 'mech either has very vulnerable or very targettable legs (Quickdraw, any light except Jenner, any assault)
2) Your specific 'mech has very hard-to-hit side torsos (Catapult, Dragon, any light, and apparently for some reason Quickdraw)
4) You run out of ammo quickly (UAC/5, AC/20)
5) Your ST has a lot of crit-padding - i.e., slots being taken up by other items such as weapons, heat sinks, AMS, ECM, or whatever else. This reduces the chance of any critical hits on that location setting off the ammo, especially if the ST is completely full with only one or two slots taken up by ammo.
6) Ammo usage order. This is the most context-sensitive factor, and thus also the most complex, but also probably the most important to learn to manage. Ammo in various body locations gets used in a specific order, which is shared across all 'mechs. If you had one ton of ammo in each of your 'mech's locations, the ammo in your head would be used up first. Then you would start using up the ammo in your CT. When your CT ammo was all gone, you would start using that in your left (I think) ST. Then your right ST, then left arm, etc... This last one is especially critical if combined with 4, fast ammo-depletion builds. So, for example, if you're running a 3xUAC/5 build, you definitely don't want to put four tons of ammo in your legs. You can put one ton in the side-torso containing a UAC/5 (thus combining with 5 as well) without any concern whatsoever. You can also put one in the more-or-less empty side-torso without worrying too much.

Point 5: Also depends. For a beginner, I would agree. Once you are able to hold your own in a match, though, mixed builds can sometimes surprise you. One of my best performers is a HBK-4G with three machine guns, one ER-PPC, one LLAS, and one MPLAS.

[Padic]

Yeah, this is an extraordinarily narrow minded checklist. Pretty awful across the board.

Even Number 2, which seems pretty sound, falls apart when you start your reasoning. Defending the base from caps is more than just the fast mech's problem.

Even the slowest of Assaults have some responsibility to prevent a cap loss. Mostly, by positioning themselves carefully at the start of the match - which can drastically help to reduce the odds of a base trade.

[Bloodweaver]

Allied, on 25 July 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

Why so much hate on Pulse lasers? I should introduce you to my Awesome 8Q.

Well, they're just not worth the weight... AND the heat... AND the range limitation. The large pulse laser is especially terrible now, after the recent "normalization" change. It was fine before, yet it got nerfed(while the PPC did not, because &(@#% FACTS).

If you're running an 8Q with 6 LPL, that's 42 tons for 63.6 damage and 51 heat...
1.514 damage per ton
1.214 heat per ton
0.802 points of heat per point of damage

Switching instead to 6 LL will take up 30 tons for 54 damage and 42 heat
1.8 damage per ton
1.4 heat per ton
0.778 points of heat per point of damage

So you you actually get MORE points of damage per ton with the standard laser, which doesn't make any sense at all. You do create more heat per ton with the standard laser, BUT, you also have 12 more tons to play with - letting you offset that disadvantage with twelve heat sinks. Plus, that's only heat per TON - you're generating far less actual HEAT. And that's also without mentioning the fact that even though you create more heat per TON with the standard laser, you're actually creating LESS heat per damage point... A difference which becomes even more pronounced with, again, those twelve tons free for heatsinks.

Another way to look at the difference between those two builds, is that with the pulse build, you are essentially spending 12 tons for the equivalent of 2 medium lasers...

Which, incidentally, leads into the range difference. The LARGE pulse laser has essentially the same range as a MEDIUM starndard laser; a weapon that only costs 2 tons to bring up to the same damage level as a single LPL. With far less heat, and faster recycle. Speaking of recycle, another problem with the pulses is that the recent change made them fire at the same rate as standard lasers, making them even more useless than before. The ONLY advantage pulse lasers now have over standard lasers is a shorter beam duration; they don't even have a higher damage output per ton, in spite of their slightly higher damage output per weapon. And the difference in beam duration is so small as to be inconsequential - one FOURTH of a second- especially when taken in combination with the fact that they fire at the same rate as standard lasers. The only semi-viable pulse now is the small, and even then there are few builds that would benefit more from it than from medium standard lasers.

Edited by Bloodweaver, 25 July 2013 - 06:59 AM.

[IceSerpent]

6: Put an XL engine into a mech with large side torsos, unless it's a light that goes 150kph.
7: Listen to people who think that "every weapon is fine / has its place".
8: Eat yellow snow.

[oldradagast]

Flat-out disagree with the first point.

LRM20's are not "the best" and they are nearly useless on any mech that cannot put up 20 missiles per volley. No point in chucking 15 + 5 and watching AMS shoot down nearly the entire volley of 5. The LRM15 is probably the best overall, and the general rule I use is if you can't put 30 missiles (or more) on a target, don't bother with the LRM's.

Also, the AC10 and AC5 are not bad weapons, though they are more niche builds. Dual Ac10 Jager is good, especially after heat penalties for dual AC20, for example.

[Nebelfeuer]

1. never read guides that are made from people not capable to make use of most of the weapons in game, let
alone a healthy mix of them.
2. see 1.
3. see 2.

Edited by Nebelfeuer, 25 July 2013 - 08:36 AM.

[Victor Morson]

Modo44, on 25 July 2013 - 04:59 AM, said:

The "weapons to avoid" list is pretty silly. All of those have their place, just not on your cookie-cutter Highlander.

They really, really, really don't.

Allied, on 25 July 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

Why so much hate on Pulse lasers? I should introduce you to my Awesome 8Q.

Small Pulse are useful on light 'mechs that can close the gap. That is it. The Large Pulse has a horrendous heat-to-damage ratio, so you're paying the same tonnage & crit space as you would for a ER PPC to have less range and less up-front damage delivery, for around the same heat.

Thus, LPLs are a terrible weapon and it's a bad idea to take them. Always.

PS: The Awesome is a horrible chassis, and among the very worst in the game. It is inferior to the Victor in every way in it's own tonnage range, and was already regarded as one of the very worst layouts in the game - thus why the Stalker PPC was popular, not the Awesome PPC. It's a bad, bad 'mech.

Nebelfeuer, on 25 July 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

1. never read guides that are made from people not capable to make use of most of the weapons in game, let
alone a healthy mix of them.
2. see 1.
3. see 2.

The reverse is true: Never read guides that try to convince you everything is roses, because they're going to misguide you.

There are very, very clear tiers of weapons & equipment in this game with currently broken and vastly inferior ones. For some reason people like to steer newbies into using the junk. It's a bad idea.

Pretty much: T1 - PPC, ER PPC, SRM, Gauss, MedLas, AC20 | T2 - LRM/TAG, SPL, SL, UAC/5

Everything else is downhill from there at present time. Sharply down hill. Worse yet is mixing the weapons with no rhyme of reason.

PS: Large Lasers were a good weapon but with the restriction at 2, they're not worth taking. Streaks also like to track everywhere but where you need them, while still doing plink damage. So both guns were good but are now on the trash pile.

Edited by Victor Morson, 25 July 2013 - 02:25 PM.

[Roland]

Modo44, on 25 July 2013 - 04:59 AM, said:

The "weapons to avoid" list is pretty silly. All of those have their place, just not on your cookie-cutter Highlander.

No, they really don't.

I know that you want them to. I want them to as well. Victor wants them to.

But currently, with the current weapons stats, they are not useful weapons. You are crippling your mech by mounting them.

You are of course welcome to ignore his advice....but his advice in that regard is most certainly sound.

[Padic]

Roland, on 25 July 2013 - 02:07 PM, said:

No, they really don't.

I know that you want them to. I want them to as well. Victor wants them to.

But currently, with the current weapons stats, they are not useful weapons. You are crippling your mech by mounting them.

You are of course welcome to ignore his advice....but his advice in that regard is most certainly sound.

LRM15s are fine. MPLs and ERLLs are potentially are worth looking into. He omitted LB 10-X on his list of untouchables, and for that he should feel endless shame.

[Victor Morson]

Padic, on 25 July 2013 - 02:26 PM, said:

LRM15s are fine.

They are usable 2nd tier guns right now, fine for PUGs, but the 5/10 are superior right now because they have well under half the grouping of the 15, making them deal far more focused damage.

Padic, on 25 July 2013 - 02:26 PM, said:

MPLs and ERLLs are potentially are worth looking into.

MPLs are bad but not horror shows. ER LLs on the other hand.. no, they're not worth looking into. Their range is inferior to the ER PPC / Gauss, and at 1000 meters, that 1 second discharge time means your fire will spread all over and most of it go to waste. They're also way, way too hot. Regular Large Lasers are superior in every way, but with the limit of 2, they are not worthwhile anymore.

Padic, on 25 July 2013 - 02:26 PM, said:

He omitted LB 10-X on his list of untouchables, and for that he should feel endless shame.

I guess I just mentally lumped them in with the AC/10 on the do-not-touch list. They deserve to be there, though. Addition added!

[Roland]

Padic, on 25 July 2013 - 02:26 PM, said:

LRM15s are fine. MPLs and ERLLs are potentially are worth looking into. He omitted LB 10-X on his list of untouchables, and for that he should feel endless shame.

The MPL really only has a handful of uses, as it's generally just a straight up downgrade compared to the medium laser.
The ERLL is pretty terrible as well. You'll be better off either running a PPC, or a standard LL.

Concur with you regarding the omission of the LBX10. That weapon is terrible.

The LBX10 is currently one of the great tragedies of MWO balance. It should be an awesome weapon. It feels like an awesome weapon when you use it. But its totally ineffective. It's a massive waste of tonnage currently.

The thing to keep in mind here isn't that Victor is suggesting those weapons do no damage... but rather that they have alternatives which are generally just straight upgrades. Certainly a good player could still kill a bad player with them. But that's not how you measure weapon effectiveness.

A lot of folks read posts like Vics and mistakenly argue against it, thinking that the point is that he wants those trash tier weapons to be trash... but that's not the case. He wants them to be good, just like everyone else here. But he recognizes that his wishes are not reality.

[Victor Morson]

Roland, on 25 July 2013 - 02:37 PM, said:

A lot of folks read posts like Vics and mistakenly argue against it, thinking that the point is that he wants those trash tier weapons to be trash... but that's not the case. He wants them to be good, just like everyone else here. But he recognizes that his wishes are not reality.

Well said!

And I agree. The visual and audio effects on a number of these guns are freaking badass. I love the way the flamer looks even, and the LBX/10 feels completely awesome to shoot! I would kill for these guns to live up to that.

[Roland]

Oh my god, the flamer.
That weapon is one of the most awesome looking and sounding weapons in any game, ever.

If I was the guy who made that, I'd be incredibly peeved that it is such a totally useless weapon that you rarely ever see in game.

[Bloodweaver]

Victor Morson, on 25 July 2013 - 02:37 PM, said:

They are usable 2nd tier guns right now, fine for PUGs, but the 5/10 are superior right now because they have well under half the grouping of the 15, making them deal far more focused damage.

True. But this goes directly against the idea that the LRM20, which has the worst spread of all, is the best of the LRMs. Which is what you claimed at the beginning of the thread.

[Victor Morson]

Bloodweaver, on 25 July 2013 - 02:52 PM, said:

True. But this goes directly against the idea that the LRM20, which has the worst spread of all, is the best of the LRMs. Which is what you claimed at the beginning of the thread.

That was poorly worded. Thanks for pointing it out, I'll edit it.

I meant 20 total missiles in flight, not LRM/20s. It was very confusing, and my bad.

Basically any less than 20 missiles in flight and a single AMS will remove 80% of them, unless you're doing some odd (questionable) tricks, like firing a leader shot through a narc launcher - stuff I couldn't really recommend even if it seems to work (most of the time).

Edited by Victor Morson, 25 July 2013 - 03:01 PM.