50 replies to this topic

[Ashvins]

So after a little testing in the training grounds I've found that firing 21 rounds with macro for rapid fire results in 77 heat being generated over a period of 7 seconds. The heat generation for group fire of 3 AC/2's is far worse after firing a total of 27 rounds in 9 seconds causing shutdown and crit damage.

The mech I tested this with was a Victor 9B with 3 AC/2's and 16 double HS. Which (if my math is correct) should give the mech a heat capacity of 62 and a 3.2 hps dissipation. Giving the 11 sec fire time for the Macroed AC2's you should be able to fire 90 rounds before overheat. Now with the chain fire of all 3 (no macro) you should be able to fire roughly 100 rounds before overheat. either way were getting roughly a 60% decrease in rounds fired before overheat. This is with only 3 AC/2's. I'm sure with 4 or more it's even worse.

Plain and simple the Heat generated by AC/2's is now off the scale far beyond any other weapon for the damage dealt with normal cycle times. Macroing them makes it a little better but not much.

Please fix this issue ASAP.

Edited by Ashvins, 31 July 2013 - 06:34 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Ashvins, on 31 July 2013 - 06:32 PM, said:

So after a little testing in the training grounds I've found that firing 21 rounds with macro for rapid fire results in 77 heat being generated over a period of 7 seconds. The heat generation for group fire of 3 AC/2's is far worse after firing a total of 27 rounds in 9 seconds causing shutdown and crit damage.

9 shots in 9 seconds per AC2????
Are you serious?

[Jam the Bam]

I just changed my AC2's off my Jagermech because it was unplayable due to the heat, doesn't seem to matter how many AC2's you fit the heat generated is ridiculous for how much damage you do. They were pretty crap weapons before, just good fun, but now they are utterly useless.

[MaxStr]

Confirming that AC2s are borked

[JohnnyWayne]

Well dps on an ac2 is better than on an ac5. I use it in my marauder (yes a signle one with great success^^). Moreover its the only ac that works like it should...

[Ashvins]

Joseph Mallan, on 31 July 2013 - 06:49 PM, said:

9 shots in 9 seconds per AC2????
Are you serious?

That's the default ROF on 3 AC'2's grouped together, nothing unusual there the heat it generates is the unusual part.

Granted your seldom see them fired that way...........

Edited by Ashvins, 01 August 2013 - 04:20 PM.

[BlackIronTarkus]

Is it the same for AC5, Im about to buy a CTF-4X, maybe now is not the best time. Can someone confirm/deny the glitch?

Edited by BlackIronTarkus, 01 August 2013 - 04:41 PM.

[Hammertrial]

It's bugged, and has been confirmed by support.

It also probably (90% likelihood) of effecting small lasers + small pulse lasers.

Essentially, every weapon in this game (sans flamers and mgs) probably have a preset max alpha (the free shots) and a multiplier.

For Ac/2s, this is 9, due to the highest hardpoint limitation you can have (9 laser hunchback). The multiplier is 1. The heat scale goes up to 12 shots.

AC/2s have the issue that they are macroed or chain fired in groups, and have an incredibly low cooldown (the chain fire rate).

Thus, it is extremely easy to fire 9 shots in quick succession (the timer resets every shot, so as long as you are firing at least one ac/2 every .5s).

On the 10th, 11th, and 12th shots, you generate heat equal to the equations given in the heat scale math (roughly 27% or so iirc for a jager with 6 ac/2s).

Basically, to avoid the heat penalties, alpha all ac/2s at once, or chain fire in a single group, not multiples. You lose the awesome OH CRAP THE DAKKA, but you won't incur the heat penalties.

[BlackIronTarkus]

Wow, this is a pretty dire bug in my opinion. Worthy of a hotfix.

[ZippySpeedMonkey]

This thread had me concerned so I took my quad ac2 jagr for a test ride....and guess what NO real difference from how I used it previously (granted I alpha all 4)....

So no complaints here...

The heat penalty seems to only effect guys who like the macros (which it should)...

This is one of the few times I can say "Good Job PGI...."

[Daemir]

ZippySpeedMonkey, on 01 August 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

This thread had me concerned so I took my quad ac2 jagr for a test ride....and guess what NO real difference from how I used it previously (granted I alpha all 4)....

So no complaints here...

The heat penalty seems to only effect guys who like the macros (which it should)...

This is one of the few times I can say "Good Job PGI...."

>_> it also effects anyone who would chain fire even 2 of them manually. If that's a good job in your books, I want to burn your library.

[MischiefSC]

In the end, it was found that multiple AC2s were taking up space that was intended to be used for Gauss and PPCs and thus had to be nerfed. Not that they were effective, just that they were not utterly worthless.

This was considered a threat, much like the LPL and more than 2 LLs, to the PPC/Gauss primacy and had to be destroyed post haste.

It was your fault for trying to make another build. You're allowed to boat LRMs, otherwise anything but PPCs and Gauss marks you for eventual nerf.

You keep this up and they may have to boost Gauss projectile speed to 2k to match PPCs and increase PPCs without penalty to 3.

You have been warned.

[MaxStr]

Anyone bother checking if they took 2s to change a line to fix an entire weapon or did that not make it into this patch either.

[Darkside7777]

Again? They were never good. The only time they were ever mildly annoying is when they caused a ludicrous amount of cockpit shake.

Edited by Darkside7777, 06 August 2013 - 11:10 PM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

kevwil, on 31 July 2013 - 05:28 AM, said:

hitting with all 4 does 16 damage and cooldown is .5 seconds so DPS is high

Wait a minute. 2 damage per shot, 4 shots, 2x4=16? Huh. Here I thought 2x4=8.

[Lightfoot]

I told you all not to ask for nerfs. You should have been asking for buffs to armor or something. Now were stuck with Heat Scale penalties everytime you group-fire more than 2 or 3 weapons. I'd be laughing except it's so sad that a MechWarrior game that was looking pretty good overall had group-fire removed instead of just the minor tweaking MWO needed.

Unfortunately, I think Heat Scale-Group-Fire is here to stay (that includes AC2 clusters). The Devs seem to like it.

Have you tried a macro that staggers AC2 groups 0.6 seconds apart?

[Sigifrid]

ZippySpeedMonkey, on 01 August 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

This thread had me concerned so I took my quad ac2 jagr for a test ride....and guess what NO real difference from how I used it previously (granted I alpha all 4)....

So no complaints here...

The heat penalty seems to only effect guys who like the macros (which it should)...

This is one of the few times I can say "Good Job PGI...."

Except it penalizes those that do NOT macro as well. It has been well established by several people that you can achieve those fire rates without a macro.

In any event, somehow they worsened the bug from last patch yesterday.

EDIT: tested the ppc/MG thing myself, and could not reproduce it.

Edited by Sigifrid, 07 August 2013 - 09:11 AM.

[mariomanz28]

It's affecting me and I'm not using a macro. I have had to strip down my Quad-2 DD, one of my favorite Jager setups, because it's pretty much useless. I could regularly bring in about 500+ damage with mine and now if I'm lucky ~200 damage.

I use the 2 guns on the left side for group 1 and 2 on the right for group 2. I've have tried both constant alpha fire (pressing both buttons at once) and stagger firing pressing 1 and holding then the other about half way during cooldown of the first. It feels even on a normal temperature map I overheat in about 5-6 shots of all 4 guns. This is with Fast Fire. It literally takes me about 2-3 seconds to over heat.

[TheMightyServo]

Took a break from the game due to real life, came back and suddenly all the mechs I use with AC2s - the only mechs I was still enjoying - are useless.

I got sick of carrying big guns with slow recycle rates that get nerfed and have so much lag you can't hit, lasers that overheat instantly, and a dozen other builds that just aren't fun to play, and went to a Dragon & Jagermech with AC2s & AC5 combos.

Same as with mariomanz28, on the Jag I do left arm left mouse, right arm right mouse, 2 ACs each, and now I overheat in a couple of seconds, with no real damage done to the enemy. Used to be it took a while to do damage and it wasn't that great, but at least the dakka dakka part was fun.

I thought making laser mechs unusable due to heat and missile mechs unusable due to damage changes every week was bad enough, making ECM necessary in every game every time, then dumping the NVGs for fishbowl NVG quality and making the thermals into no-contrast FLIR (I use NVGs and FLIR at work, so I find that change super-obnoxious) was bad enough; but now the last thing that actually made the game fun to play is gone.

A buddy of mine was in on the Alpha and was a founder and has since ditched & uninstalled the game because it keeps becoming more unplayable. If there's a patch, I'd like to stick around, but I can't seem to leave for a week and not come back without having to change everything I've learned to figure out what PG has decided to make the chosen weapon for a given patch.

Making firing weapons in sequence take a penalty is by itself absurd. If PG is concerned about playing time, maybe just leave things alone and let players learn their lessons about how charging in isn't usually the best plan, and new players will learn to adjust tactics, rather than have every freakin' update change the entire dynamic of the game.

[GingerBang]

Zypher, on 31 July 2013 - 06:21 AM, said:

Wait, AC/2s used to be useful, I guess against noobs that sit there and let you plink away at them they might be...they have always been a gimmick, the dakka dakka might scare some people although it does sound cool and it is fun to pound that person sitting still, but those that know what they are and how to deal with them, they are pretty much a junk weapon.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL



you're kidding right? They are only a junk weapon if you completely lack the ability to aim. They have the third highest DPS in the game, second only to AC/20's and LRM20's.