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My Mwo Mech Trip: The "unlucky" Dozen


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#1 Deathlike

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 09:57 PM

I was planning to write this a looooong while ago but was too lazy to get it done. Frankly, there's probably a number of articles I could write about MWO, but I'd probably drown in sorrow or depression or something like that.

So, here's a quick trip through memory lane on my progression in MWO and a brief overview and discussion about the more common mechs found in the game... and how they can be used to some degree of effectiveness. This is not a mech specific guide, but chances are that having played 13 of 20 mechs (which the Kintaro will be available in C-bills sometime later today), you probably will understand some of the stuff I am discussing about your favorite or hated mech. I hope it serves to be somewhat of a newbie guide to common chassis... but it'll be outdated as soon as more stuff gets added. Oh well.

Well, onto my grindfest of 13 mech mastery... "unlucky dozen" describes it well (think baker's dozen).

Raven (RVN):
Best (and optimal starting) variant: 3L
Worst variant: 4X
Interesting variant: 4X
Best feature: Torsos of confusion
Worst feature: Large leg hitboxes
Major Changes: Movement (worse than Jenner), Raven leg hitboxes, ECM/BAP (BAP countering ECM), Streaks (from CT coring to random locations), Netcode (lag shooting removal, plus HSR)

I chose this mech because MWO plays kinda like MW3.. so light mechs did have quite a bit of power back then and lag shooting was effectively a mandatory requirement. It was also a nice mech in MW4, but it wasn't that great there (although the ECM+BAP platform was great). It was the OP mech back in the day and it dominated Jenners more often than not... I can't say the same today. Before prior to selling this mech, I was being legged a lot more.. and this mech really does get legged early and often in higher levels of play. This isn't a bad thing necessarily, but it was problematic even while HSR was implemented... and now it's just too easy to leg IMO.

The 3L is still the best variant.. but that has more to do with the other variants being subpar. The RVN-2X is effectively a poor man's Jenner-K (and the Jenner-K has JJs and a module slot) and the 4X is an interesting bird. Seeing the AC20 Raven is hilarious, but it is only serious when you're not expecting it and very ofter smarter AC20 Raven pilots will strike when you least expect it, which makes it effective.

The worst problems in the non-3L Raven family is that they are simply inferior and slow. An engine increase to 295 (or even at least 255 to 280) is more than enough. The 4X prior to any MG buff was pretty bad... but it's worth experimenting with the AC2/AC5/UAC5/LBX10 to see what you like. I never used JJs on the 4X, but having used them on a Jenner... having 1 or 2 JJs is important to keep this mech useful... mobility is king. Despite the slower engine caps, it is probably better to be conservative as a scout as any 3L or Jenner will simply be superior to you and you'll never have enough speed to escape. Hanging with the natural light mech is very helpful to your survival.

The biggest cost that I had to grind for was a 280XL engine... and I made a terrible earlier mistake buying the 275XL (as if these things were obvious)... that took a while to grind for....

So... after that somewhat fun experience in the 3L (not so much the other variants), it was onto the Cicada.

Cicada (CDA):
Best variant: 3M (for ECM, great starting option) or 2A (for power)
Worst variant: 3C (despite the MG change)
Interesting variant: 3C or 2B
Best feature: 3M is "overweight light" to carry ECM+ballistics
Worst feature: Large CT and Legs for its size
Major Changes: Movement (worse than Jenner), ECM/BAP (BAP countering ECM), Netcode (lag shooting removal, plus HSR)

One day, I had decided to take a liking to the Cicada... it had energy and ECM... what could go wrong?

Well at the time, MM had started doing v2, which was strict weight class matching. This meant that I could avoid facing a Raven-3L or Jenner because I was a Cicada... I didn't fear Hunchbacks or Centurions at the time, so it was kind of a non-issue. However, it was a poor man's light... as any time I had to face a 3L, I was toast. CT-coring Streaks were still prominent, so losing to a 3L was easy (in fact, I had some crazy superiority complex when driving a 3L for a while, which also meant I had a complete inferior complex for any "light" mech). At least a Cicada was fast enough to pick its spots...

The stock 3M engine is a godsend to save money. You could reuse the 320XL engine on the rest of the Cicadas, and since the rest of the Cicadas had a 320 STD engine (which is good enough for an Atlas), you could sell it off to make some money back. You could probably avoid buying a new engine... as switching to a 325XL seems tempting, but the 300XL is valuable but also tonnage saving... 320XL is where its at IMO.

The 2A most resembles the Jenner-F and I believe it competes with it in firepower just fine... but the F simply has JJs, and all its weapons are on the arms.... whereas the 2A's torsos limits its range of fire for anything above and below it... which is a pain in the arse. The 2B does make you appreciate this fact, despite having only 5 energy slots... you kinda wish it had one more energy slot, but that would kinda make it a better 2A to some degree.. and the Cicada's arms are tiny like the Ravens... To compensate for the lack of an energy hardpoint on the 2B, I believe I resorted to LLs and LPLs in some combination of meds. It wasn't too bad.

The ballistic slot on the 3M is hard to take advantage of. I'm not sure how 1 MG would fare, but it's probably not optimal use (2MGs make more sense IMO) so trying to insert a UAC5/LBX10 or whatever is very difficult to pull off with the tonnage consumed for just the engine alone w/o losing a few more meds...

I avoided the 3C altogether... and despite the MG change, the Spider-5K is a better option even when you can put a PPC on the 3C (which, happens to be part of the stock build). It sorely needs an mirroring/symmetrical energy hardpoint IMO to differentiate itself better... although creative people have tried to make it a mini-dakka mech (outside of the 4MG option) which... I have mixed opinions about.

I kinda had the Cicada around long enough around the time the X5 debuted and I don't have much an opinion of the mech, it is a nice alternative to the CDA-2B. Just try not to use LRMs on it... you're wasting your time doing so. I remember someone running dual LRM20s on it, with AMS eating that up... SRM4s and/or Streaks are probably a fair option... the stock build for the X5 for the most part is actually optimal. AMS is kinda overrated if you're going fast anyways.

I had a hard time to decide what Heavy mech I would go for next... but considering the Catapult "seemed" like a good mech at the time (it's iconic, notwithstanding) and the K2 was popular... I went that route.


Catapult (CPLT):
Best (and optimal starting) variant: K2
Worst variant: Depends (between A1 and C4)
Interesting variant: A1
Best feature: JJs, JJ-less K2, missile bay doors
Worst feature: Insanely easy to core cockpit/head
Major Changes: Missiles (LRMs, SRMs, and Streaks, splash, raw damage, and trajectory), Torso Twist (especially on the K2)

I need to get the obvious over with... I hate the large easy to hit cockpit. It's just obscene. It helps to avoid this by moving your head frequently. One of the things that has been suggested is to put XL engines on this mech... as one who torso twists frequently, this is generally a bad idea. If you don't mind or care, then go for it... having run XL engines on this mech has generally gotten me into more trouble that I'd like... I've often been side cored because I've consumed a lot of tonnage towards weaponry that makes the XL engine weakness obvious and it's really not productive IMO to use it (unless, you are willing to die on that weakness).

If you are using the Catapult primarily as a support mech (either missile or direct ranged fire), you will easily minimize its weakness of the large cockpit. The AC40 Catapult was popular once upon a time, and although I never really felt it was OP (I've never used it), there was always too many concessions you had to make to make it useful... which meant it ran as slow as an assault and had obvious ammo weaknesses in its legs. Still, I wonder why people don't bother exploiting said weaknesses...

The various changes to missile damage has made this mech very volatile in usability. Right now the A1 Champion is a poor build IMO, because Streaks are not the weapons it once was (which was OP, when it did its CT-coring stint). The various changes in LRMs... in damage, splash, arc, Artemis... has all contributed to wide ranging opinions on LRMs and right now they are more or less balanced with lots of beneficial utilities on the field to make them more useful (like UAVs, which are a missile boats true friend, cutting through ECM and operating like NARC in a way).

I had asked a while ago to decide between the A1 Splatcat and the C4... this was "ages" ago. I decided upon the A1 Splatcat... to understand the problems of its "OPedness" and its weaknesses. I learned a lot about getting into range... overheating... and making things go splat. It was a very gimmicky build, but it produced a lot of fun. It's not OP... especially in the current PPC/Gauss meta, but for a different bit of fun, you'll learn how to make SRMs for you (hoping that HSR is fixed ASAP, since SRMs are actually affected the most by this).

I didn't play the C4, but maybe someday I'll master it. It's seems alright...

The K2 was probably my best build... it was just an energy consuming beast... having both LL and ERPPCs. It should still work just fine in the current meta...

The C1... I couldn't really find any good way of being it useful with missiles, so I practically made it an energy boat that jumped and it did alright for what I used it for... ERPPCs and LPL. It was alright and it wasn't too shabby either. It would probably still be fine in the current meta. It's probably also a fairly balanced Founders mech (the Jenner-D is still the #1 Founders mech IMO)... but the C1's (and C4's) build diversity is literally linked to the state of missiles which I think is more or less fine now... but can change at any poor balance change's notice.

To finish off the post for now.. with the Atlas...

Atlas (AS7):
Best (and optimal starting) variant: D-DC
Worst variant: K (although, one day there will be a large missile weapon to revive this chassis)
Interesting variant: RS
Best feature: Built like a rock
Worst feature: Low arms, easy to remove side torsos
Major Changes: ECM (any change hurts the D-DC the most), SRMs/Streaks (for the purposes of brawling)

I'll admit.. I used to use ECM as a crutch... but that's all the more reason why ECM was a problem. Without getting into too much detail... ECM when used with good tactics can overwhelm newbies easily. Of course, that is still true even BEFORE the ECM nerfs...

Atlai seem to be great for one thing... brawling. I guess the RS is "OK" for long ranging, but I put together terrible builds for the RS and Atlai in general (outside of the D-DC). At the time, I could not imagine myself using Gauss in the right torso of the Atlas... it would just accelerate my death.. although now I'm not as adverse to it now.

The biggest issue with Atlai in general is its low arms... making your shots taken from the high view you see from becoming an issue. It's easier to deal with on flat ground, but on maps on Tourmaline... it becomes a pain in the arse.

I did not bother to grind the Atlas-K. it is a freaking natural newbie death trap that should teach newbies "getting the most expensive mech doesn't mean it is any good". The XL engine that adds to the K's cost is part of the problem. Newbies don't seem to know any better and every single time I shoot an Atlas's Gauss Rifle off and see them die... is the primary reason why the lack of a tutorial is a freaking problem. I will let every newbie know of it in combat... (probably laughing at your expense). You can only get away with it if you have nothing in the RT... but NOT with a Gauss Rifle. It is literally a magnet for EVERY player that fights an Atlas... rid of the Gauss Rifle, and see the Atlas slowly crumble... but you can accelerate your own death with an XL on an Atlas...

The Atlas's defining feature is its torsos... because if you don't "spread" the firepower between the two torsos, you will be crippled easily. There was a point were the SRM damage nerfs have been going on for so long, that the left side genuinely didn't have the same kind of punch that the Gauss/AC20 Right Torso had... (yes, Vassago Rain was right about that). Going straight coring on an Atlas is not always a good idea... as not lowering the Atlas's firepower will allow it to crush you.

I don't remember having too much success with using the Atlas's large arms to block damage, but the good pilots use that to their advantage. All that armor you put into that mech needs to be used properly... so yes... torso twisting IS still important on an Assault mech.

I'm one of those people that believe that using the stock engine on an Atlas is a terrible idea. I'm sure people will disagree. IMO, STD engines between 325 and 350 are optimal (335 or 340 is a sweet spot) and when you build these Atlai correctly, you can reasonably catch up to the slowest of Heavies and be the brick wall everyone wants to lead into battle.

Also... I'm not saying Atlases with LRMs are a terrible thing... but if they are not in the front line of a battle, and only chucking away LRMs in the back... you are doing your team a grave disservice. As soon as that ammo runs out, you probably won't have enough backup weapons to be useful when lights come to pick on you... I've always felt that the Atlas-RS Champion was a bad build for that reason alone (especially with how the mech is designed)... but whatever I guess. The Stalker is a better missile boat than the Atlas by far...

Next time/post, I will probably discuss the following mechs (in the order of mastering them):
Stalker
Jenner
Centurion
Blackjack
Cataphract
Quickdraw

The best part.. I started liking and loving the mechs I grinded, instead of the first 4 of semi-mediocrity and tedium..

#2 Tskeet

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 07:35 AM

Interesting stuff man. I quite enjoy reading peoples' experiences through 'mech variants. Even though I believe there are a very limited number of effective 'mechs and weapons, the child in me still yearns for the time when we have 1000000 equally balanced everything :D

I did see you commented on the 320XL vs. 325XL. If I'm not mistaken, above 250, engines have heat sink capacities increase by 1 per "25" engine rating. so a 320 would have space for 2, and a 325 space for 3. That's a big difference if you use this engine in your assaults that need slots as a premium, especially since dual heat sinks is basically standard.

#3 Deathlike

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 11:27 AM

View Postmrbounce, on 22 August 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

Interesting stuff man. I quite enjoy reading peoples' experiences through 'mech variants. Even though I believe there are a very limited number of effective 'mechs and weapons, the child in me still yearns for the time when we have 1000000 equally balanced everything :D

I did see you commented on the 320XL vs. 325XL. If I'm not mistaken, above 250, engines have heat sink capacities increase by 1 per "25" engine rating. so a 320 would have space for 2, and a 325 space for 3. That's a big difference if you use this engine in your assaults that need slots as a premium, especially since dual heat sinks is basically standard.


You're correct in the heat sink #s... but however in practice, it's mostly irreverent and when I generally run an assault, I use Standard engines. For non-assault mechs, the extra heat sink slots are overkill for me.

#4 Deathlike

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 03:02 PM

Continuing the journey - sorry for the non-posting (stuff keeps coming up and it's hard to want to write this stuff down sometimes)...


Stalker (STK):
Best (and optimal starting) variant: 3F
Worst variant: 4N
Interesting variant: 5M
Best feature: Smaller than it should be (relatively speaking, blame poor scaling), High arms
Worst feature: Always hot, easy to challenge in a brawl
Major Changes: "Ghost Heat"

I went to the Stalker... considering at the time a tourney was going to be run. I had initially bothered to grind a Stalker because I have friend that uses one. It was an interesting experience.

The Stalker is like the best energy platform... but it seems to displace the entire purpose of an Awesome by design. It can be a great energy boat... a great missile boat... and a great SRM brawler. The Stalker in this game singlehandedly removed Awesome from being "awesome" in the first place.

I spent most of the time running the Stalker in LL and ERPPCs. It was just that good. Having less than 16-17 DHS is a like a travesty.

The Misery came quite a bit later, but it is primarily a combination of an Atlas-RS and a Stalker-5M. The 5M has the really nice benefit of carrying a CT weapon... people don't realize how powerful that is. The Stalker tends to have its sides removed, like the Atlas... but you usually have the option to be relatively symmetrical in your builds (4N being the ******* variant of the family) plus it provides that "extra space" to produce one more DHS when done correctly... but it's also the ultimate short range brawler.

There's not much special to say about the 3F outside of it having the best torso twist.. and the 5S being a virtual clone except with dual AMS and being consistent with all the other regular torso twist Stalkers...

I kinda wished I did better in the tourney though...

I did not play with the 3H (I'm not an LRM fan) and the 4N is inferior. The 4N probably could benefit from the 3F's torso twisting for the purposes of balancing.. (outside of adding a hardpoint somewhere).

At some point, I wanted to go back to playing a light that I got fascinated by after losing to one during my Raven grinding days...

Jenner (JR7):
Best (and optimal starting) variant: F or D
Worst variant: K
Interesting variant: K
Best feature: Mobility, Power, Speed
Worst feature: Large CT
Major Changes: None? Maybe never getting ECM... ever. Maybe BAP? (as the ECM counter)

Have you ever driven a mech and know that.. it's just for you? The Jenner is that mech for me.

Unlike the Raven, the freedom to essentially go anywhere, harass anyone, and still control the caps (even in Assault) has got to be the most rewarding thing. Yes, so its CT is big... but there's too many positives that I can overlook this deficiency... besides any light mech caught being in the open for too long will get crushed anyhow.

I started with the F... because it was simple and cheap to do (the F isn't very complex, being an energy boat). The K variant was the toughest... as the 4 module slots "seems" to be the least productive on an offensive standpoint... but compared to the other light mech options that carry 4 modules slots (Spider-5V is meh, Raven-3L is ground bound), the Jenner-K is the ultimate "electronic warfare" mech. The D variant is simply just... epic. You have effectively one upped the Raven-3L in offense (1 more energy hardpoint) and you have JJs... it is hard to dispute how powerful that is.

If you see any light mechs in higher level play, there is greater than a 50% chance that a Jenner is involved (with the Raven-3L being 15-25% and the Spider-5D being < 10%). It will be everywhere and anywhere you want it to go.

Although I had initially sold the Jenners when I grinded them previously, I have 2 in my mechbays at the moment and sold off the Raven when the movement changes were in place. It is that dramatic and valuable to me to be "controlling traffic" in slightly more competitive play...

It is still to this day, the most fun experience ever...

The next mech I decided to look into.. is the "brick wall" of mediums... known as the Centurion...

Centurion (CN9):
Best (and optimal starting) variant: A
Worst variant: AL
Interesting variant: AL, YLW
Best feature: Damage absorber/reduction from the "missing arms" aka the "zombie"
Worst feature: Primarily short ranged
Major Changes: Engine Buff and Torso Twisting Adjustments

One of the best and almost always useful medium that I see on the field is a Centurion. They are also the most affordable for a starting mech... perhaps one day they may be the "free starter mech".

The key attribute that this mech has is its "zombie power". That is, it is still "weapons operational" while the side torsos (and arms) are removed from the med. The ability to keep firing 2 medium lasers cannot be understated... it is still a threat while occupying time for others to help out the Centurion. Part of the destroyed arm hitboxes "protects" the Centurion from taking normal damage... allowing the 50% damage transfer to be applied TWICE... once to the "arms" and again to the "side torso" that it was on... before it hits the CT. This allows you to survive far longer than you should. However, this puts greater emphasis into learning how to torso twist. It is the most important thing you will ever learn in this game. Whenever you are not ready to fire... for whatever reason (cooldown or heat), you want to put the area you want to expose to the enemy as long as you possibly can until you are ready to fire. It allows you to "distribute" damage w/o allowing key weapon systems like the Left Torso missile bays to keep weapons operational as long as possible until you run out of ammo. This trick applies to all mechs... but the Centurion benefits most.

Although you are able to carry long range weapons in Gauss Rifles, PPCs (AL only), and AC20 (YLW) on certain variants, you "lose" the protection of the arm that is carrying it. It's not a bad thing, but you would need to take extra precaution in not to being surprised or overwhelmed, since the majority of the firepower and tonnage is wasted when that section goes. I personally prefer to keep it weapons minimal (2 extra meds on the AL is enough) so that I can use the shielding part of the arm for my benefit.

The missile tubes on the Cent are fine for carrying LRM10s, but SRMs are the best option generally speaking. Having the superior ability to brawl with a Cent is very potent, especially when you are engaging bigger mechs. The Cent-A is most popular for this reason alone. Remember that heat becomes an issue, so make sure to use the SRMs first, and use the meds if your heat levels are not to bad. You will also want to take care in firing, since you want to limit your ammo bound weakness... as the ammo is most likely going to be stored in the legs. Also, the Cent's missile bay doors are very important as it can reduce your damage intake in trading for a firing delay...

Standard Engines are most optimal.. but an XL engine on a Cent-D (or YLW) isn't necessarily a bad thing. Just make sure to use the extra speed and mobility to your advantage....

If you're wise though... engaging a Centurion should sincerely invoke the Raven method.. just leg them. Doing it is far more effective than to try to shoot its CT. Shooting the CT is only useful if the pilot is terrible and/or critical.

I know I've promised 2 heavies, but I'll just settle for giving you a better story.. with the Blackjacks...

Blackjack (BJ):
Best (and optimal starting) variant: 1X
Worst variant: 1DC (IMO)
Interesting variant: 3
Best feature: Primary weapons are on arms
Worst feature: Low engine speed, terrible brawlers
Major Changes: Whatever Medium buffs that were promised...

I ran this mech during the scheduled medium tourney... thinking I "might" have an edge for being an early adopter. It didn't work out that way, but it made my experience interesting.

I would like to say in advance... this is a hard mech to master. The BJ-1X is the goal (being more interesting than a Hunchback-4P by design), but everything else is a lot more difficult to work with. The variants outside of the 1X are slow, painful to use (despite the weapons being generally on the arms), and very brawler unfriendly. I simply do not trust a certain man in a Cicada that claims that these mechs are to be feared... the BJs are good at one thing.... dealing damage for a medium. They are terrible at being anything but that. Heat is a natural problem for an energy dependent mech, but you also have to factor in tonnage, twist twist ability (which is weak, JJs are used to compensate), and there's a lot working against this mech in general.

However, if you truly know the meaning of being a "support mech", then success is possible.. but you need a whole lot of patience. I've seen various interesting builds.. like the poor man's YLW, poor man's K2, poor man's Jenner-F... it's just looks bad sometimes. Plus, it looks a whole lot like the Jagermech. Still, if you can master the BJs.. you are on some sort of inside track to do well in this game IMO.

For instance... I "rebuilt" the stock BJ-3 loadout with an "optimized" version... and this truly make the grind bearable. If you have heat management and firing discipline.. you can master this chassis. I don't know what to say about the 1DC, but at this moment I'd still avoid it like the plague (although 6 meds + 2 MGs look tempting now).

So... to remind everyone again.. THIS MECH IS NOT FOR NEWBIES. If you are bored and are skilled, this is an interesting challenge.. a test of your own heat management. It is unforgiving for various reasons, so you need to take care in that.

If only the non-1X variants had an engine cap of 255 at least..

For next time... I will cover the following (and probably more interesting) 5 mechs to complete the "dozen":
Cataphract
Quickdraw
Highlander
Trebuchet
Hunchback

Edited by Deathlike, 28 August 2013 - 07:55 AM.


#5 Sable Dove

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 01:53 PM

Can't agree with the CDA-3C. It's more fun than any other Cicada because you can use Gauss, AC20, or dual AC2s, all of which are very effective. Before ghost heat, you could also build an effective triple-AC2 build, which is very much a burst-damage mech, but incredibly fun..

It's not the easiest, but it's definitely not the worst. It just plays quite differently from the other Cicadas.


Also, XL in a Catapult is virtually mandatory. You will die mostly by CT or head, occasionally by legging, and very very rarely, you will lose a side torso. Enemies don't aim for side torsos on Catapults because it's damage that's not going to CT, and if the Catapult starts turning the other cheek, all that damage to the side torso is wasted, where you can hit the huge CT from any angle. If you're getting side-corred in a Catapult, either you're doing something wrong, or your enemies are incredibly bad. It's always faster and easier to go for the CT on a Catapult.

#6 Deathlike

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 04:49 PM

View PostSable Dove, on 24 August 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

Can't agree with the CDA-3C. It's more fun than any other Cicada because you can use Gauss, AC20, or dual AC2s, all of which are very effective. Before ghost heat, you could also build an effective triple-AC2 build, which is very much a burst-damage mech, but incredibly fun..

It's not the easiest, but it's definitely not the worst. It just plays quite differently from the other Cicadas.


The Cicada has more tonnage than the Raven-4X to use for ballstics and generally a 300XL engine should provide enough tonnage... but the better overall goal for any "light-ish" type of mech is to be able to compete with the others. If you choose to go the full dakka route (not MGs, but AC2s-AC20s), it carries a whole different set of risks. This is not something to go for as a beginner, but certainly something "new" to do when you no other options.

Quote

Also, XL in a Catapult is virtually mandatory. You will die mostly by CT or head, occasionally by legging, and very very rarely, you will lose a side torso. Enemies don't aim for side torsos on Catapults because it's damage that's not going to CT, and if the Catapult starts turning the other cheek, all that damage to the side torso is wasted, where you can hit the huge CT from any angle. If you're getting side-corred in a Catapult, either you're doing something wrong, or your enemies are incredibly bad. It's always faster and easier to go for the CT on a Catapult.


The XL vs STD engine debates are something to consider... but one of the oft less things to consider is that you don't have to torso twist in the same way when you have an XL engine vs STD... particularly in a Catapult. Making it easier for your opponent to shoot the CT can occasionally deflect the fact that you may have an XL.. but once upon a time, I did try to run something crazy like 4 LL and 2 UAC5s... that didn't go well.

#7 Ertur

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 01:06 AM

View PostDeathlike, on 22 August 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:


Jenner (JR7):
Best (and optimal starting) variant: F or D
Worst variant: K
Interesting variant: K
Best feature: Mobility, Power, Speed
Worst feature: Large CT
Major Changes: None? Maybe never getting ECM... ever. Maybe BAP? (as the ECM counter)

Have you ever driven a mech and know that.. it's just for you? The Jenner is that mech for me.

Unlike the Raven, the freedom to essentially go anywhere, harass anyone, and still control the caps (even in Assault) has got to be the most rewarding thing. Yes, so its CT is big... but there's too many positives that I can overlook this deficiency... besides any light mech caught being in the open for too long will get crushed anyhow.

I started with the F... because it was simple and cheap to do (the F isn't very complex, being an energy boat). The K variant was the toughest... as the 4 module slots "seems" to be the least productive on an offensive standpoint... but compared to the other light mech options that carry 4 modules slots (Spider-5V is meh, Raven-3L is ground bound), the Jenner-K is the ultimate "electronic warfare" mech. The D variant is simply just... epic. You have effectively one upped the Raven-3L in offense (1 more energy hardpoint) and you have JJs... it is hard to dispute how powerful that is.


I don't get the disdain for the Jenner K. Sure you lose a missile slot, but there's more than a few builds to get around that, and you get an extra module. Anyways, the worst Jenner is like the worst jackpot-winning lotto ticket -- there may be better, but it's still a big winner.
It's also the cheapest way to build an ER PPC/3 MLas variant, which is pretty ok.

#8 BlackJackRaider

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 05:39 AM

View PostDeathlike, on 22 August 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

[color=#959595]Standard Engines are most optimal.. but an XL engine on a Cent-D (or YLW) is a bad thing. Just make sure to use the extra speed and mobility to your advantage....[/color]


Was the "is" in the line above a typo? I think the Cent-D absolutely needs an XL to be a good mech, and a lot of people I know do really well in a YLW with an XL as well.

I also think you're spot on about the BJ being a very tough chassis to get into. Also, I would mention that the BJ-1 is hands down better than the 1DC. Yes, you give up two energy points, but you get JJs. With the BJ-1, I run an 235xl, 4 jj and either a short or long range load out: AC20+3 SL or ER PPC+PPC+2mg. Both of those are a lot more effective than the builds I was running in the 1DC, because they can jump up from behind cover and pop off a quick 20 dmg shot.

Pro tip: an Atlas makes great cover. Stay 50 m behind a friendly Atlas, then jump up higher than his back and put a quick shot into the most vulnerable part of what the Atlas is shooting. This should help your Atlas better than anything else you could do, although you have to watch out for being flanked by faster lights and mediums (which is all of them after the recent buff to the HBK engine size). A flanked BJ stuck in a brawl without support from your assault dies in no time.

#9 Deathlike

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 07:55 AM

View PostBlackJackRaider, on 28 August 2013 - 05:39 AM, said:

Was the "is" in the line above a typo? I think the Cent-D absolutely needs an XL to be a good mech, and a lot of people I know do really well in a YLW with an XL as well.


It was a typo, I'll fix that. I found a Cent-D with an XL engine above 350 pretty much fun for scaring the daylights out of light mechs.

#10 Deathlike

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 12:07 PM

OK, so much drama around, but I have some spare time to write the rest of this up. Onto the rest of the mechs I've promised to write about.

Cataphract (CTF):
Best (and optimal starting) variant: 3D
Worst variant: 2X or 4X
Interesting variant: 1X or 4X
Best feature: High torso weapons
Worst feature: Low arms, Right Torso centric
Major Changes: Movement code, Jump Jets

The Cataphract isn't a bad mech, but it isn't a great mech either. One of the major issues that prevents this mech from being newbie friendly is that it's just big (not overly big though) and that it is relatively easy to core. Even if you aren't going to core it directly for whatever reason, the right torso contains most of that mech's firepower. It is also overly obvious when you look at out where the "major guns" are located with one exception (the 4X). The 3D is the mech to aspire to generally, but each variant has their own individual "style".

When I look over the 1X, it's almost like a lite-Stalker version in terms of hardpoints and tonnage. If anything, it's not too far off from a Misery outside of not having a CT weapon... it is a pure testament to seeing how far you are in your heat management skills. The ballistic hardpoint does look tempting to use, but the RT has 2/3 of the hardpoints... so you need to make sure that the left side has the other bit of power...

The thing about the 2X is that the missile pods lend to firing SRMs or Streaks... not LRMs. This tends to make whatever I'd like to build be short ranged not that it has to be that way... putting Gauss in the RT is relatively risky to me, making it not the most XL engine friendly idea... unless you can get around to being sneaky about it... so what I ended up doing was making it short ranged and it's not too bad when making an impact... making the left arm SRMs/Streaks to stay competitive to the right side is difficult, but the point is to make either side a threat so that no particular side torso makes you automatically useless in combat...

Although I haven't used the Ilya, the hardpoints are pretty favorable.. and there's good reason as to why it is the arguably the most popular hero mech in MWO. The RT weakness is still there, but if you wanted to use dual Gauss, you wouldn't have to expose the RT weakness at all. Of course... it's all about the dakka last I checked...

I have not bothered to grind the 4X, since it is a naturally slower mech, but only reason it exists is for the dakka. The CTF-4X is actually a "departure" of the entire 'phract series... with the "zombie-like" build, but really it only has a small number of backup weapons to counter lights... since they tend to be hard to take down with the dakka...

The 3D is where the action is at. Now the meta pretty much makes this mech lean in a certain direction, but the mech is very balanced on its own, despite its ballistic slanted right side... What you will notice with respect to the Cataphract is that it helps being on "even ground" with your enemy, as that becomes a really difficult issue when firing weapons. The 3D doesn't have to suffer from that, but to be the most "effective"... using arm lock "unfortunately" minimizes the convergence, allowing it to stay effect as a jump sniper. It is one of the few mechs that truly benefits from its weapon placements...

Overall.. this mech is not for newbies, yet has its set of issues and is one of the more interesting chassis in this game.

Although I liked the Cataphract, I went with the Quickdraw for the tourney and although I was seriously disappointed that the Orion was not released, the Quickdraw is an interesting mech option as I think it's a much more useful and mobile Dragon...

Quickdraw (QKD):
Best (and optimal starting) variant: 5K
Worst variant: 4G
Interesting variant: 4G
Best feature: High torso weapons
Worst feature: Larger than it should be
Major Changes: Movement code changes, "ghost" heat

The Quickdraw is an intriguing mech, being larger than life (too large for its tonnage) and like most heavies, they aren't really the most friendly mechs to drive as is. This is no exception.

The Quickdraw's small side torsos allows for the use of an XL engine.. which is very important considering how big the mech is. The key to its success is pulling a lot from any light, medium, and to a lesser heavy training... which is to pick your spots and trying to spread damage around via torso twisting and jump jets. Don't be surprised if you get legged though as the legs are huge... but in trying to distribution damage... using the JJs to move the damage to the legs can be very handy. When played correctly, you can dish quite a bit of damage, but also survive a lot more than you should. It doesn't make you a Centurion by any stretch, but the goal is usually to get in and out of any fight quickly.. and that is what the Quickdraw excels at.

Although the 5K looks like a good the next best 6 med platform since the Jenner, you could be doing a lot more with it... especially when you have 25 tons more than a Jenner to use (although, most of that would be spent on the engine) AND you're trying to compete vs other heavier energy boats like the BJ-1X or the HBK-4P. Building it similarly to the stock BJ-3 is probably the best bet. It was the most productive build during my tourney run, but it can actually brawl better than the BJ-3.

If you judge the 4H from other sources like smurfy's, you will come to the conclusion that Quickdraws are not really good LRM boats... and that's true. However, this means the 4H is geared for brawling, and that's what this variant does the best. You will find that the CT missile tubes are much more conducive to smaller SRM volleys... but that makes them quite a bit more Artemis friendly.... it reminds me of the Dragons, except the Dragons are more of a jack-of-all-trades (and master of none) where it makes sense to try to dish a lot of SRM or Streak damage in addition to a lot of bigger energy weapons.

The 4G is a curious Quickdraw... having less usable hardpoints compared to the other variants makes it stand out less. I'm not a huge advocate of stuffing more JJs considering the tonnage involved (especially given how it's 1 ton per JJ, which is an actual negative compared to a medium or light). What it does have is a better torso twist and "faster moving arms" which is its special quirk. On the surface, it doesn't seem like much, but the arms of a Quickdraw are somewhat long enough that you can use them to deflect damage... which makes those arms somewhat Centurion-like. Unfortunately, it's not a good enough platform for missiles... you are better off trying to run it like a BJ-1... stuffing it with the biggest long range energy weaponry possible. It works out a lot better than you think... especially when convergence is involved. It's good for jump sniping, but it's not really a brawling mech.. you'd have to gimp yourself a lot to do it (not that it's impossible, it doesn't seem too practical).

One of the noted attributes of the Quickdraw is that part of the scaling causes it to have a higher vision level than most mechs within its class.... and this is very similar to what an Atlas... and the Highlander would bring... which is my next mech topic..



Highlander (HGN):
Best (and optimal starting) variant: 732
Worst variant: 733P
Interesting variant: 733 or 733C
Best feature: Reasonably high weapon mounts
Worst feature: Right side carries all the direct fire
Major Changes: Movement code changes, "ghost" heat

When this mech came out initially, it was part of the "ever expanding" PPC/Gauss meta.. and to some degree it was the beginning of the new "hero before regular variant" experiment (which as far as I can tell was successful, until the Kintaro). I had always liked the Highlander to a degree from its incarnation in MW4 and it happened to be the first JJ-capable Assault (Victor became the second). The Highlander is almost as ubiquitous to the Stalker or an Atlas on the battlefield, and like all good Assaults (outside of the Awesome)... you can't really ignore it.

The HGN-732 is what I call "easy mode". This might change in the future, but this is the mech that made PPC+Gauss just addictive and yet, it's disgustingly powerful. Sure you can do this with an Atlas-RS or a Misery... but neither mech can jump. I know the Dragon Slayer (Victor hero) can kinda pull it off, but it's genuinely not the same. Its weakness like most Highlanders is the right side of the mech... all the real firepower is contained there. Now... if only you could find them to shoot..

The 733 is a nice missile boat staple... if you don't use LRMs, Streaks and SRMs are just as effective. It's hard to complain about this build... and in some ways it is can be superior to the Atlas D-DC in terms of being able to balance both sides... although it's probably better to have more control over the right side...

The AC20 Highlander is the 733C... now obviously you don't have to make it do that, but that is its claim to fame. I guess you could go with the dual UAC5 route, but it's technically the best dakka platform for the Highlanders...

I did not really consider the 733P given the current heat scale changes... but the supposed future Gauss change may change my mind. Having a purely energy Highlander is not impossible to use, but it isn't the most attractive platform... unless you like the 4 PPC Stalker, in which this variant wouldn't look so bad.

I have not owned the Heavy Metal... but it's not that special a mech IMO outside of the fact that the right side is not specifically where all the weapons are carried. However, it cannot carry 3 PPCs like the 732... although I think the worst attribute is how you can hear the kill music from ANYWHERE from one of the recent patches.

So, after having played the Highlanders, I decided to grind the rest of the mediums (outside of the Kintaro, which was unannounced at the time.. and it's not even worth researching) so I started with the Trebuchet.


Trebuchet (TBT):
Best (and optimal starting) variant: ??? perhaps 7K (for me, it was the 5J)
Worst variant: ??? perhaps 5N (for me, it was the 7M)
Interesting variant: 7K or 3C
Best feature: Natural LRM Boat
Worst feature: Large arms that contain most of your weapons
Major Changes: Movement code changes, Jump Jets

I thought my experience would be enjoyable, but it was anything but that. One of the most defining features of the Trebuchet is its arms... and that's ONLY a good thing if you were a Centurion. Unfortunately, the majority of the firepower is on the arms and that makes brawling quite a bit undesirable. Jump sniping seems like a good idea, but then you're also limited to what you can use for missiles... as juggling tonnage is tricky. It is best to outrange your target with LRMs.. and unfortunately this mech is not very viable in higher level play by design.

I picked the JJ capable mechs (7M and 5J) hoping that they would be useful... but compared to the BJ, the "bucket" ("trench bucket" is a nickname) is a terrible substitute for that, even with all the speed you can have on it. Anything above a 300XL engine (XL engines are friendly to it) consumes a lot more tonnage than one would like... and only the 3C would benefit most from it.

The 5J is heavily energy based... and that's not too bad. You can kinda brawl with it, but should try to avoid that at all costs. There's not much positive to say about that...

The 7M is a tricky mech. Although it has the 3rd missile hardpoint, it is the NARC tube port which limits your option to that with SRMs and Streaks... which makes brawling a necessity. The minimization of the hardpoint makes the energy hardpoints a lot more valuable and amounts to castrating the number of builds you can make on it. It is probably best left as an LRM boat with meds...

I thought I could make an interesting 3C build, but it took various iterations to get it to function the way I'd like. The solo CT hardpoint screams for something like a LL or LPL... unlike the Centurion that has 2 CT energy hardpoints for 2 meds...

I did not use the 5N, but considering that I generally don't see Trebuchets fielded since its debut, it's not surprising. In fact, the Trebuchet has been one of the weaker scoring mechs in tourneys (these are not the end all of showing usefulness, but it's telling - even the BJs have done better). Of course... it's not used in competitive play, so it's not a fair world view on the mech, but it does have its original niche use...

The 7K is interesting on paper. It is the only build that deemphasize the arms and puts all the weapons in the torso. I'm not entirely sure that's a bad thing, but given my experience with the 3C and the torso weapon, it's probably not in a great spot either. It has an interesting in-between utility between the Hunchback-4G and Hunchback-4H, but is it the most practical? I don't know. The arm as far as I understand it is only good enough for Streaks and smaller SRMs, so most of the damage needs to come from the ballistic slot... it isn't impossible to be creative with it, given that you can use your sacrificial arms... and it COULD be a redeeming variant for all intents and purposes.. but I'm not in any rush to test it out as my overall experience was bad...

Having grinded out the buckets... I started looking into the Hunchback... the only mech that has "been around the block" from the beginning....


Hunchback (HBK):
Best (and optimal starting) variant: 4SP or 4P
Worst variant: anything that is not the 4SP or 4P
Interesting variant: 4P or 4G
Best feature: Most firepower at 50 tons (was going to say mediums, but there's 3 more 55 tonners that are coming)
Worst feature: Everyone shoots the "Hunch"
Major Changes: Hunchback/Medium Buffs, Ghost Heat, Overall "MG Buff"

One of the more interesting mechs that continually gets discussed positively AND negatively in the same breath. It is not the best medium... but it is certainly not the worst medium. Understanding AND dealing with the "Hunch" is instrumental for success. If you see a hunchback on the field, all you have to do is shoot its right torso. If by the offchance it is a 4SP, then you're only making it half as powerful... With that said, stating how to kill a Hunchback is easy... it's all about protecting the "Hunch" that is required to be successful.

Obviously most mediums are better off trying to use a heavier mech for cover... the best place to align is to the left of the mech. Consider where your "hunch" is relative to your teammate... this allows it to be protected better, while you scan the field as you should with the very generous torso twist the mech has. Also, if you must be alone... making right turns is much better proposition than left turns. The terrain will help protect your "hunch" to a degree until you have to expose it. In any case, it's not impossible protect the hunch... you simply have to learn when to show up and that's not exactly the most newbie friendly mech... but once you understand how to torso twist well, it won't seem like a hindrance...

The 4SP as said earlier is a different kind of Hunchy... it has symmetrical hardpoints so it's much harder to disable. The energy hardpoints are on the arms, which makes them the most lethal part of the mech... but overall it doesn't really have a weakness. It has some occasional use in higher level play, but the Centurion holds up better by design.

The 4P is the "powerhouse". It is THE energy mech. The primary issue though is that heat buildup is a serious issue and "ghost heat" happens to hurt this mech the most.. making it more difficult to do a full alpha... which is most disappointing really (and silly). Still 9 meds is essentially the "goto build" and although you could be creative... it's really a matter of pilot trigger AND aggressiveness discipline that allows them to survive. It is generally a mistake IMO to be a light mech and expose yourself to a 4P... because they can be your kryptonite...

The 4G is the "Founders" variant and it used to have little value... but the MG buff has changed it a bit. Adding 2 MGs to the classic AC20 or Gaussback build really allows the 4G to clean up... even if you lose speed and some heat capacity, but the Hunchback is naturally slow so it's not too bad a tradeoff. The mech was a lot more fun than I've imagined.

I'm kinda grinding the 4H, and I thought it would be a better 4G, but the heat and ballistic options are limited so it's not as impressive as it could be. It reminds me a lot of the BJ-1DC, except the XL engine allows the 1DC to do more... as XL is almost always a bad idea for Hunchbacks... as most people have that magnetism to shooting the hunch.

I have not tried the 4J (I might, depending if there's no tourney) and although this mech is probably best served to run LRMs unlike the 4SP due to tube counts, it does have one more energy hardpoint than the 4SP.... and keeps the hunchback weakness. It's an interestingly different look for a tradeoff... and 6 meds is the limit due to ghost heat... so meh. LRMs probably don't look so bad in the smaller versions.

Just a thought, but there is some "irony" that after the Hunchback buffs, the Champion version didn't get any sort of update... since the extra tonnage could have gone to increasing the engine.. if only so slightly. Oh well.

I hope you are enlightened by this somehow. Feedback is welcome. I'm not sure what I plan to grind, but I only do it for the interest of understanding the mech AND hope that mech balance is taken seriously (it really hasn't to this point). Hopefully a newbie will not try to "guess" too much on how some mechs and variants work, but also get an understanding that each and every mech has its own unique design and picking just ANY mech can be a bad idea... MW gaming in general is always about functionality over fashion... unless you're buying camos and colors.

#11 Airu

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 02:20 PM

Interesting read ;)
imo, it should be sticked for new players looking to choose their next mechs, although it does not cover all the mechs, I like the piloting details

Edited by Airu, 29 August 2013 - 02:22 PM.


#12 Deathlike

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 05:19 PM

I promised an update from another thread regarding this one...
http://mwomercs.com/...ble-xp-weekend/

Here we go:

Since having mastered 39 variants and 13 mechs from the original post... I have only grinded out 5 more variants but no new mechs... and I did it for my own interest. Here's a slice of what I did:

Highlander HGN-733P
Best Feature: Most energy hardpoints for a Highlander
Worst Feature: Not ballistic hardpoints, so it runs hot like hell
Is it any good?: "Just OK."

I was thinking that the PPC heat nerf wouldn't affect the heat too much, but they are back to "stock TT values", which with respect to the current heat system make this untenable. PPCs are very much usable, but trying to stick that with an ERPPC in any combination is a waste of time. However, the ER Large Laser is a much more viable option due to its heat (it's lower than I had expect it to be), and it's not OP by any stretch, but it is a lot more popular on Stalkers and other mechs carrying 4 of them.. taken over the 5 or 6 LL builds that have been crippled by ghost heat. I still ended up with a 2 LL, 2 PPC build, which was suitable for grinding.

Hunchback HBK-4H
Best Feature: Energy with one giant ballistic option
Worst Feature: It gets too hot to easily if you fill up the other slots with medium lasers... still has the "bad hunch" problem.
Is it any good?: "Just OK". It depends what you do with the energy slots to complement the large ballistic.

After my enjoyable grinds with the Hunchback, I decided to grind the rest... if not for self interest. I wanted to see if perhaps I was missing a "better" hunchback option. This wasn't really one of them. My best build had 5 meds and 1 AC2. When you are going full energy, you need as much uptime as possible, and the only way to do it is use the smallest ballistic possible. MGs are not good on their own, so they were never considered (it was far better in the 4G). I tried variations with the AC5/UAC5 (before the mega-buff and mega-nerf) and it was just too hot to deal with... since I had to make too many sacrifices to heat/tonnage/engine that would make it unusable. The BJ-1DC has it better by design than this build as putting on an AC20 eats up the energy slot... making it a better Hunchback-4H than the Hunchy...

Hunchback HBK-4J
Best Feature: Most usable due to ghost heat crippling the 4P
Worst Feature: Still has the "hunch"
Is it usable?: YES (in an alternative to the 4P)

One of the variants I was dying to try was this one... it has a enough medium lasers to deal with to avoid ghost heat, yet allows for extra weaponry backup in the form of missiles.. and Streaks are a very good choice for this mech. The 4SP would "seem" weaker than this, having 1 less energy hardpoint, but the "hunch" reduces its potential. Still, it makes for a better 4P alternative (which makes the 1 less module slot all the more like a bad idea, due to ghost heat on medium lasers > 6). Stuffing it with DHS like the 4P is easy, and you get nice automated firepower with Streaks. I guess you could use SRMs or LRMs as that is its design... but the state of the game makes it rather undesirable (and they reduce your cooling for the 6 meds you should be carrying, unless you have something more creative for the "hunch").

Catapult CPLT-C4
Best feature: Just enough for TAG+missiles
Worst feature: Like the A1, missile dependent, and TAG reduces your backup weapon options dramatically
Is it usable?: Barely

I know people cling to this mech, but I don't see it. My initial instinct is correct about it... if you want to go LRMs, TAG will kill your backup weapons. Unless you have a teammate that is willing to TAG/spot for you, you are doomed to failure. At least for the A1, you can carry some better backup defensive weapons like Streaks or SRMs, while carrying LRMs for mechs you can't reach... you have the hardpoints to do so, despite not carrying TAG. It was the worst challenge for myself and although I did make back money on it... my experience really stunk with the the C4. It doesn't help that being a support mech and the Catapult's look is so squishy (which has always been the case, even with the K2). It makes me like the C1 and K2 more, along with the A1.

Trebuchet TBT-7K
Best Feature: Your arms are like the Centurion's - great for blocking
Worst Feature: It doesn't have JJs, and all buckets are large
Is it usable?: YES, VERY

I still have it in my inventory for now, but it'll soon go away like the dodo. I had tons of fun with this "bucket" as trolling with side torso weaponry is fantastic. The SRM/Streak arm is not that useful, but if you can hold long enough to use a 1ton SRMs/SSRMs from it, then it can be salvaged... otherwise it is a tonnage waste. Going the AC20 route makes you a poor-man's Hunchback, but you don't have the Hunch... except you'll still have the crappy bucket's frame and very likely get cored instead. However you decide to focus on which side having the most power, it can be used as some 2 PPC/LL or Gauss/AC20 support mech and at least survive longer than most of the Trebuchets (the 5J comes close for me). It is the best Trebuchet variant by far... which is strange on the surface, but it makes a boatload of sense in the end.

I'll update this post sometime after double XP weekend... hopefully.

Edited by Deathlike, 10 October 2013 - 05:22 PM.


#13 aniviron

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 06:14 PM

It's a testament to how bad the TBT is that I'd kinda forgotten about it until your post. I see them so rarely on the field, it's easy to forget; I even see Commandos more. I think the TBT is in the same class as the flamer- just so undesirable that you never hear people complain about it, because everyone knows to avoid it by now and there are plenty of other good options in its weight bracket.

I'm surprised you didn't care for the HBK-4H. Ever since they took my precious 4P away (Used to be my favourite mech in the game... *pours out a 40*) I've been relying heavily on my 4H, and it doesn't disappoint. I'm running with the stock 200std, ac20, and 5mlas. It stands its own against anything 70t and under on any map except tourmaline, caustic, and mordor (notice the theme) and absolutely shines if you stick with an assault lance, even on the hot maps. The lasers don't have a ton of staying power, but a 45 damage pinpoint alpha is hard to argue with, especially when you can keep firing the ac20 more or less indefinitely, and can either pair it with the two arm lasers or just wait two volleys between firing all five. The 4H also used to make an excellent gaussback, though the crosshair bug for hunchies made it a lot worse than it should have been. Because the gauss generates just the one heat, you can fire the mlas forever at a loss of just 5 burst damage. I switched back to an ac20 after the gauss change not because I don't like new gauss, it's just bad for brawling, and sniping isn't an option when your crosshair is inaccurate.

#14 Deathlike

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 09:16 PM

View Postaniviron, on 10 October 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

It's a testament to how bad the TBT is that I'd kinda forgotten about it until your post. I see them so rarely on the field, it's easy to forget; I even see Commandos more. I think the TBT is in the same class as the flamer- just so undesirable that you never hear people complain about it, because everyone knows to avoid it by now and there are plenty of other good options in its weight bracket.


Although tourney results are not a true indication of much, but they don't show up well in their own brackets. It says a lot about the Trebuchet.

Quote

I'm surprised you didn't care for the HBK-4H. Ever since they took my precious 4P away (Used to be my favourite mech in the game... *pours out a 40*) I've been relying heavily on my 4H, and it doesn't disappoint. I'm running with the stock 200std, ac20, and 5mlas. It stands its own against anything 70t and under on any map except tourmaline, caustic, and mordor (notice the theme) and absolutely shines if you stick with an assault lance, even on the hot maps. The lasers don't have a ton of staying power, but a 45 damage pinpoint alpha is hard to argue with, especially when you can keep firing the ac20 more or less indefinitely, and can either pair it with the two arm lasers or just wait two volleys between firing all five. The 4H also used to make an excellent gaussback, though the crosshair bug for hunchies made it a lot worse than it should have been. Because the gauss generates just the one heat, you can fire the mlas forever at a loss of just 5 burst damage. I switched back to an ac20 after the gauss change not because I don't like new gauss, it's just bad for brawling, and sniping isn't an option when your crosshair is inaccurate.


I build my mechs to survive the worst case scenario. If cannot stand under the worst case scenario, then it's not sufficient.

I honestly think the BJ-1DC would do a much better job than the Hunchback-4H. Given that any attempt to put an AC20 in the build removes the use of an XL engine, it makes it too slow.

Here's your projected build based on what you've given me:
HBK-4H

Here's a BJ-1DC under that same concept:
BJ-1DC

The BJ is faster... and the AC20 is easier to protect. However, the hunchy has better torso twist... and doesn't have the same weakness. I'm not into doing AC20 hunchies... it never worked out as I'd like.

This is what I ended up with, more or less:
HBK-4H

It was heat sustainable, and allowed me to take some extra potshots with the AC2 while the mediums were on cooldown. I didn't need that much ammo though for that reason alone.

Edited by Deathlike, 10 October 2013 - 09:17 PM.


#15 aniviron

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 12:11 AM

View PostDeathlike, on 10 October 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

I build my mechs to survive the worst case scenario. If cannot stand under the worst case scenario, then it's not sufficient.

I honestly think the BJ-1DC would do a much better job than the Hunchback-4H. Given that any attempt to put an AC20 in the build removes the use of an XL engine, it makes it too slow.

Here's your projected build based on what you've given me:
HBK-4H

Here's a BJ-1DC under that same concept:
BJ-1DC

The BJ is faster... and the AC20 is easier to protect. However, the hunchy has better torso twist... and doesn't have the same weakness. I'm not into doing AC20 hunchies... it never worked out as I'd like.

This is what I ended up with, more or less:
HBK-4H

It was heat sustainable, and allowed me to take some extra potshots with the AC2 while the mediums were on cooldown. I didn't need that much ammo though for that reason alone.


I really don't think that 71kph is too slow for a HBK. It's faster than most assaults, which is all it needs really. I don't hunt rabbits with it, unless they get close, and then my torso twist range combined with the power of having a weapon that cores in two hits and kills in three is more than enough to make sure that jenner regrets trying to circle a mech which does a pretty good owl impersonation when needed. Your build is exactly mine, except I lose a ton of armor for a heatsink in the left arm.

I'd actually argue that my HBK has more staying power than that BJ by a long shot. When I see an ac20 BJ, I always go for the side; either they're slow and it comes off in two alphas and they have no AC, or they're fast and it comes off in three shots and they're dead.

You should really give the 20 another shot. It's got almost the same recycle time as the mlas, so you only have to expose your hunch for one second out of every five, and even though it runs hotter, you still cool down fairly quickly when you're only firing the ac20- and given that almost half the firepower is bound up in that cannon, you're still putting down a lot of damage while you cool off. I was never wild about the AC2 or 5 in a HBK, it just leaves you facing your opponent too long, and that means losing 80% of your guns.

#16 Deathlike

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 10:17 AM

View Postaniviron, on 11 October 2013 - 12:11 AM, said:

I really don't think that 71kph is too slow for a HBK. It's faster than most assaults, which is all it needs really. I don't hunt rabbits with it, unless they get close, and then my torso twist range combined with the power of having a weapon that cores in two hits and kills in three is more than enough to make sure that jenner regrets trying to circle a mech which does a pretty good owl impersonation when needed. Your build is exactly mine, except I lose a ton of armor for a heatsink in the left arm.


I'm more concerned about heat efficiency (engine heatsinks being truedubs) than overall speed... the slowest engine I've used on the Hunchy is the 225 STD. I think that's the slowest engine I've used (I have a 225XL from my time with the BJs).

Quote

I'd actually argue that my HBK has more staying power than that BJ by a long shot. When I see an ac20 BJ, I always go for the side; either they're slow and it comes off in two alphas and they have no AC, or they're fast and it comes off in three shots and they're dead.


I dunno, the AC20 hunchback is easier to cripple although most BJ designs are XL based, thus side-coreable... I haven't used the BJs in the AC20 capacity (used energy across the board). Maybe I'll revisit the BJ-1DC (didn't grind/master it) and see if that'll work (hopefully after a buff that I keep on advocating for).

Quote

You should really give the 20 another shot. It's got almost the same recycle time as the mlas, so you only have to expose your hunch for one second out of every five, and even though it runs hotter, you still cool down fairly quickly when you're only firing the ac20- and given that almost half the firepower is bound up in that cannon, you're still putting down a lot of damage while you cool off. I was never wild about the AC2 or 5 in a HBK, it just leaves you facing your opponent too long, and that means losing 80% of your guns.


When I ran a HBK-4G, I initially tried the AC20... and that experience kinda crippled me a little. I used Gauss on it (this was before the precharge nerf) and that worked much better than I had anticipated. I still died from Gauss explosions on occasion, but I was a lot more productive in the match... I could poke and outrange some opponents w/o drawing too much attention to myself (with the occasional mistake). We'll see, maybe if I get really bored.

#17 Deathlike

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 11:11 AM

Awesome (AWS):
Best variant: 9M
Worst variant: Any variant that's not the 9M
Interesting variant: All variants
Best feature: Drives better than the Stalker (which is its direct competitor, despite the tonnage difference)
Worst feature: The CT is simply wider than the Atlas, and hitboxes only exacerbate the issue further
Major Changes: Ghost Heat, Any Missile Change

If you prefer to play in "MWO Hard Mode", the Awesome is the goto mech. Almost everything it does, the Stalker does a better job of... the only thing the Stalker can't do is carry a ridiculous engine like the 9M. The only plus is that it does drive better than the Stalker.. and that's it.

I'll save the best (and positive) for last... because there's nothing positive to be mentioned for here on forward.

I thought the 8T would be balanced.. and that it is. The problem is that when you have to consider the wideness of the Awesome (where the CT is a pinata for all intents and purposes), the radius of the arm that you're trying to aim from is much further out and somewhat lower than the torso firing point. This makes for a very disorienting mech. If you have mastered the idea of a freelook arm shot, then this mech is for you. Unfortunately, every Stalker variant does the 8T's job, and better.

I started off with the 8Q, hoping any heat training I've gained would be usable here. Indeed, hard mode gives you some insight into something like the Atlas "Boars Head", except the Stalker would still do the job better. Of course, now we have the Battlemaster and its variants out now for the paying, and this Awesome variant has gained "failed legacy status", already being outdone by the Stalker. The imbalance in the hardpoints is not a bad thing as if you can put the strongest weaponry on the left torso, the right side could simply just put together many medium lasers to go with another on the head. You can do effectively the classic BJ-3 weapons loadout + 1 med laser, and boom, it works and then some. It doesn't hurt to use a PPC+ERPPC, as you have the heat capacity to make it usable (besides, you may want to use the ERPPC in a panic shot while the lasers are in cooldown).

I didn't play the 8R, but on paper, it would be a nice SRM boat or LRM boat... think of it as what the Catapult-C4 should be, but wasn't. It's actually a potent LRM boat if you consider how the tube count, but ghost heat and tonnage makes this very prohibitive to use... unless you have help. A Stalker would still do this better though... the 3H or 5M would contend. What is curious is the lack of a 2nd module slot.. as I'm not privy to what went on in closed beta (this was one of the 4 closed beta mechs that were added since the original 4).

For history's sake here's the original 4 (all legendary founders would have this, elite founders would have one of these), all of the Founders variants in parenthesis:
Jenner (D)
Hunchback (4G)
Catapult (C1)
Atlas (D)

The following mechs were added in closed beta AND are the only other set of mechs (including the 4 mechs listed above) that the infamous "PC Gamer Skin" applies to:
Commando
Centurion
Dragon
Awesome

I plan on doing the Dragon after recouping my money grinding commandos.. but anyways, let's get back to the history lesson.

The Awesome was the only other Assault mech in closed beta... as I understood there used to be no-restrictions (or rather less restrictions) like engine sizes (no cap) and no heatsink requirement (before instituting the basic TT rule of 10 HS). I don't see how the 8R was that better, but perhaps LRMs were "better" in those days... prior to the addition of Artemis. Right now, the 8R is shell of its former self.

The 8V is a peculiar variant. I guess I could have had more success in it, in that it follows the 8Q's trait of having a shield left arm to allow for the best/powerful energy weapons on the left torso to be used more. The bulk of the weapons are in the right torso, allowing for SSRMs/LRMs/SRM boating to be alright. Too bad SRMs are still in a terrible state due to hit detection.

I do not own a PB nor I will consider getting one. Trying to lab a good build is like an exercise of pulling teeth. It is almost like a schizo build or some really bad PGI mechlab invention. Without writing any more scathing bad reviews about it, it suffers from one traumatic feature... the reduction in deceleration. I'm not sure if hugging walls is a good thing (to stop yourself), but having a mech that fails to slow down like a normal mech is like wondering what would happen if you cut the break lines in your car. It's almost suicidal. It begs for another hardpoint in the mech, probably an energy point in the CT... just to round off its insane state. As long as I've played this game, the PB is a rare sight on any battlefield, and a foolish purchase where you could pay for a better hero mech (or even the most popular hero mech in the Ilya). That's doesn't even factor in the Awesome as being the worst chassis to play with.

So, here's the good news... there is only one good variant (like the Raven, despite the recent engine buffs they got)... the 9M. It is the only thing that would remotely compete with a Stalker.. at least for mobility. However, the problem with the 9M is... it's kinda better suited for pseudo-brawling, with its SRM-favored missile hardpoints... which kinda really limit it to Streaks.... and that's not all that bad. The stock build makes you want to commit suicide in any attempts to continually alpha all the weapons.... and the annoying part is that you'll have to commit to a very expensive XL engine to make it actually viable. However...

The 9M design proves one real thing... the Awesome's viability is really tied to mobility, in the absence of fixing/tweaking its hitboxes. There is very little that the Awesome does better than the Stalker as practically every Stalker variant can do the same thing the Awesome does (as said before). The differentiation needs to be in the form of speed and superior torso twisting. If the engine cap were increased to 325, 350, or even optimally 360, the Awesome's viability would not be that great, because it also competes with the Victor for mobility. Increased speed and indirectly more heat capacity through more heatsinks in the engine would make the Awesome a lot more usable.

I pray you don't go Awesome first... because you are asking for trouble. In the PGI "progression concept" to make the Awesome a "beginner Assault" is a terrible crime against the Urbanmech. Paying for the right to play arguably the worst chassis in the game (the Locust is just as bad) is not the way to go to making it usable in regular games... don't even dare think of using this in a more serious game.

In most cases... your best bet to survive IMO is to go PPC and try to outrange them as much as possible, carrying backup mediums and streaks for close up encounters. Going with Large Lasers or ER Large Lasers is asking for trouble, due to the size of the Awesome. You want as little facetime with your opponent as possible, and don't even dare think of being a front line mech... you are a support mech and pray your large arse of a support mech dishes as much damage as possible.

#18 Deathlike

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 11:26 PM

I wish I had significantly more to add, but I'll just add the Commando to the list. I'm awaiting the debut of the ShadowHawk later this month where I'll probably say a lot of glowing things about it.

I guess I "could be" grinding the Spider, but let's be honest... people will probably still complain about them and troll for amusement... we'll see how the hitbox fix affects them at some point. So without further interruption...

Commando (COM):
Best variant: 2D
Worst variant: There isn't really one that sticks out as "bad"
Interesting variant: All variants
Best feature: Articulated Arms
Worst feature: Large arms, most of the weapons are held there
Major Changes: Light engine "buff" (speed cap lift reserved for the terrible Locust)

When the Locust came out, two good things occurred.

1) Engine caps were increased, to differentiate the ultimate lights (the 35 tonners, particularly the Jenner) from the smaller lights through speed differentiation. Only ECM capable mechs were left literally unchanged though.

2) The Locust suddenly becomes the bottom of the "mech food chain". The Spider vs Commando isn't really an issue (although the Streak CT-favored code used to favor the Commando over the Spider for a while).

Note: The Locust will occasionally be referred to the "Lolcust" due to how bad it currently has no role in this game.

These two things have really helped out to make my decision to "go Commando"... a far nicer proposition. I would like to mention that in any sort of Spider vs Commando comparison, I actually lean towards the Commando to win in a brawl, but the Spider to win in a sniping contest. Streaks in their current state are still powerful vs light mechs, so brawling does give Commandos a nicer edge overall.... plus Spiders have less hardpoints to work with (but that's a discussion for my actual analysis of the Spider).

The 2D has been the power commando, and with ECM makes it the best Commando of the bunch. So it stands to reason that Streaks are optimal, and it shows. However, here's a less traveled thought.. is it worth sacrificing DHS to put on a laser... for the possible scenario that you run out of missiles? It's an intriguing question and when you try to build the optimal one... that tradeoff isn't going away (unless PGI decides to change how sub-250 engines work with DHS).

The 1B is a special commando in that all of the energy weapons are in the arms (both arms in this case) and the missile CT... all of the Commandos share this common trait. I have not bought the TDK - The Death's Knell (although, it seems kinda appealing) as the mech design is obviously going to be energy heavy. Considering that Jenners are still dominant light meta, you can at least try to torture them with some sort of LL/ERL + 2 med design to "draw attention". Too bad the lasers are in the arms, so you will want to pick and choose who you want to engage in any sort of hit and run. It's hard to go wrong with lasers after all.

The 1D and 3A are interesting Commandos as they have the same # of hardpoints. However, their location dictates how you will want to use them as it is very relevant.

I had played around with the 3A first and did the 1D as the 4th mech, so this analysis will make more sense as I explain it. The 3A was frustrating to me. My initial thinking was the 1D is better, due to convergence and better hardpoint positioning. The thing was that the 3A is built with SRM usage in mind... and in the current state of SRMs, they're suboptimal. If SRMs were usuable, then the 3A would shine... since any combo of SRM4s and SRM6s (with or w/o Artemis) would have made them pretty powerful in a pinch. Too bad for that.

The 1D on the other hand was built for defensive purposes. The Left Arm which was primarily a 1 energy laser hardpoint in most variants was not the case here. Both missile hardpoints were placed into the CT, which made Streaks optimal... especially in the event of one of them getting shot off. It was always unlikely that one would be shot off in the first place, but 2 for redundancy was great.... except when you were riddled with ammo and tonnage limitations, so you'd burn through them as fast as most Jenner-Ds or Raven-3Ls with Streaks would. This was incredible... especially when you consider the arms being pretty large... it was a very useful shield arm. It wasn't a difference maker, but since I like using shield arms, it was fun to annoy and protect myself as much as I could while strolling and trolling. I guess you could put in SRM4s in it, but you were really limited missile-wise. Streaks are more effective anyhow, given the hardpoint criteria.

The best thing about the Commando on the whole was that you could really get by with mediums and streaks. This "could" be ideal for those starting this game, but those arms are just not the easiest things to protect and get over. I guess if you're not using them defensively, you could be OK... but meh. Sub-250 XL engines are relatively affordable (but, there's a few mechs like the BJ that would benefit from that) but still cost twice the price of the mech itself!

Just one other thing. Sub-250 engines aren't "that bad", but it affects builds in a way that it shouldn't normally. The 2D is most affected, but the 1B and DK aren't far behind. It's not that as bad, but it's something to remember when you are labbing a good build for them. Perhaps someday they will have access to 255XL engines...

All in all, they are fun and not hard to commit to mastering... the mech really pays for itself. With the addition of the speed changes, they are a difference maker in a way. Most of the speed increases are for the non-ECM version... but more importantly, they allow those already fast mechs to traverse backwards at a greater rate than normal. The only exception is the DK, as it is a hero mech. I figure it's for "balance" related considerations (well, it only carries lasers and is a hero mech, which are factors). Still, the regular mechs benefit so it's hard to not see the value in trying it out. You'll be surprised how annoying they can be when you want them to.

Before I end this post, I would like to say that both the Commando and Spider are now built for trolling the mech that some people have paid for... and if you see enough Lolcusts, investing in the Commando for this purpose is worth the ticket... until they increase the speed cap for the Locust.

Here's a truly sad story... I did get to troll 2 Lolcusts that tried to double team me (and I wasn't in the 2D to boot). Nom nom nom. Who'd thought Commandos weren't fun? Craaaaazy!!!

Edited by Deathlike, 14 November 2013 - 11:30 PM.


#19 TercieI

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 05:23 AM

I have recently returned to my 2D and I agree it's one of the very rare mechs where SHS are an option. I actually do run it with SHS and a laser and I've shot through all of my ammo (3 tons) on Caustic without having to use cool shot. For the extra ammo, armor (SHS allow FF) and a tiny whit of speed (XL200), I like the trade. I run a SL rather than a ML to help with heat and only use it to poke the reddest bits. But I totally see arguments for the more " standard" Streakmando.

It's the kind of debate SHS/DHS should be much more often if they were balanced.

Also, great thread. It's been a lot of fun (and helpful) to read

Edited by Terciel1976, 15 November 2013 - 05:31 AM.


#20 Deathlike

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 07:42 PM

Been trying hard to want to post, but there's been a lot less interest to do here, so I'll try to keep it kinda brief.

The Shadow Hawk is arguably the best mech that was released as part of the Phoenix Pack, and also the perhaps the best 55 tonner and undisputed medium mech on the field (the Cicada is more of an overweight light, thus part of a different conversation). Although the Saber pack is being released soon, it is unlikely at the moment that this will change (it's not unfathomable, since the SH was the next tallest mech since the Trebuchet, and thought to be a terrible idea at the time). We'll see.

With that said, here's the good stuff.


Shadow Hawk (SHD):
Best variant: 2D2, 2M
Worst variant: 2H
Interesting variant: All variants
Best feature: Tough as the "former Centurion" (Centurions were unfortunately nerfed, and not as durable), high ballistic firing point
Worst feature: Ammo dependency is high, energy hardpoints limited on low arms
Major Changes: Was released recently, so none yet...

It seems that the obvious point or intent of the Phoenix Pack's designated mech is that it's the worst. Well, they've succeeded (too well). The 2H is a perfect example. I'm not the kind of person that needs to use every slot unless it is optimal. Trying to do that with the 2H is a bad idea, unless you want something worthless. Let's not get too worked up with that fact... it makes the most sense to take advantage of EITHER the missile slots OR the ballistic slots. The lack of multiple energy hardpoints essentially forces you to have ammo on it, so don't be surprised if you're being legged (feels rather easy to be legged) or the occasional ammo explosion that is impending. Crit buffering could help, but it is a risk any way you put it.

The most efficient way of making the 2H useful... try to consume as much ammo as you can to reduce the likelihood of an ammo explosion.

Having gotten rid of the bad variant, let me explain the best parts of the Shadow Hawk, which I had failed to mention earlier. The mech itself is rather durable... as durable as the aging Centurion which got a hitbox nerf recently. To boot, it's definitely XL engine friendly, since the arms are good enough to be used as shields. It's hard to want to drive a medium that's not built to the Shadow Hawk's standards... (if only Paul would make hitboxes like the SH as a reference point, but that's asking for the world apparently, so meh).

The 2D2 had quickly become my favorite and most feared mech on the PP's debut as it's very Streak bound by nature, especially with the head missile hardpoint. With that said, Streaks are probably most optimal over SRMs... ASRMs would probably be better dealt with by a Kintaro (the KTO is a better missile boat anyways). It's almost hard to want to avoid the Artemis upgrade... Anyways, this hardpoint configuration is actually insane if not PERFECT when you compare it to the other mediums. You want some energy (at least 2) to go with Streaks (well, I'm sure that's nothing special, since SRMs are still garbage at the moment) AND a nice ballistic slot that is most useful. Although personally I want more speed in an anti-light (Streak-heavy) mech, but people have wanted to put a nice boost of firepower in compensation... from anywhere to AC5s to AC20s. It's hard to not get tempted by the single ballistic hardpoint... it can be arguably be better than the Hunchback (which gets no break on its hunch, despite the SH's hard to miss ballistic gun visual). However, this mech won't compare as well to the Kintaro in Streak boating, but the Kintaro is kinda specialized in missile boating to a degree better than the Trebuchet (KTO to be reviewed at some point).

It's hard to miss the 2H's dakka mech builds...

The 5M is a tricky design... the stock 275XL is sub-optimal since I usually have more 280XLs handy.... but they do have a niche usage in mechs (the Raven-2X/4X) that could benefit... but the 270XL or 280XL seems more useful. Anyways, the 5M's design is like a better replication of the best Trebuchet variant... the 7K. It isn't a great idea to put the most energy firepower on it, since it's all on the right arm whereas the 2D2 splits them up, but you can benefit in terms of convergence (2 PPCs anyone?) or better yet use the left arm as a shield for the mech and whatever dakka you decide to put on that side. I think there's some merit to a discussion on hardpoints because of that, but that's not for this thread. The fact that the hardpoints on this mech is "more preferable" to the best variant of a bad mech... it's sad.

Anyways, I hope you've enjoyed this glowing Shadow Hawk review, because there's not that many mechs left worth reviewing (at least for me) that deserves more attention. Perhaps, I'll put up a poll to see what people want me to look into soon... the Spider grinding is...less enjoyable as I'd thought.





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