71 replies to this topic

[BrianLocke]

Kattspya, on 31 August 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

Can you specify, what are the lies and from whom? I have read half of those articles and found no lies.

Or perhaps you are talking about the dev statement "Players will never be forced to use or play against other players using 3rd person?"

EDIT: misplaced comma. Probably should be a semi colon - grammar is hard

And have you been forced to use 3pv against other players? Just because you misread the statement, doesn't make it a lie...

[Barrett]

To recap:
-We beat cancer using money
-The game is exiting, stage right pursued by a bear, the beta phase
-Players are still using the forum to vent about forgeting to reset the hurt-me-plenty difficulty
-Evolution is a lie

Did I leave out anything?

[Koniving]

Cybermech, on 31 August 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

Ye I wouldn't bother with most links tolken pointed out.
Some amount of lies in those.
Redshift is right as usual

Actually, there are some exaggerations in there (especially on the coolshot controversy; the damn thing was basically a joke as are the coolshots). But I haven't seen any blatant lies other than "assertions" gathered from what the company is trying to do and what one of the writers "believes" the company is trying to do.

Personally while displeased with some things that PGI has done (such as removing the double helix LRM flight path really irked me, however as Jazz put out that was pretty much necessary from a network standpoint -- and all PGI had to do was say "Sorry, but we found that LRMs doing the fancy double helix thing was causing some serious network latency issues." Bam, done.), I really don't care about the third person aspect. From day one of it being on public test I asked for one small rendition to the feature:

"Let me be able to shoot that floating drone for when the spiders use it to spot without exposing themselves." That way I can distort their vision and they can't spot, while my teammate jumps up there to blast him to pieces. It's all I asked for. Sooner or later they'll learn to just use themselves to spot in first person. That and it'd really make more sense if you could actually see your legs in third.

Truth be told third person introduced a mechanic that should be in first person. Next time you play, let it run in third person. Watch your reticle as you simply run in a straight line. Notice it bobbing up and down as your mech bounces? It's worse on some mechs than others.

Now do the same thing in first person. Notice you have a magically gliding, Never Bobbing pinpoint crosshair?

Yeah... That bobbing crosshair should be in first person too. It's do wonders for the pinpoint issue and mobile snipers.

Void Angel, on 31 August 2013 - 11:05 AM, said:

That coolshot advantage lasted for all of what? One patch cycle? And it was changed because of player responses to that advantage, which demonstrates that PGI does listen to the player base. They announced a change in that mechanic within days of its original debut.

Actually that coolshot thing in its original form never made it to our game. Once released as far as I know it remained completely unchanged.

--------

Now if you want what's really wrong with this game... Someone (David I'm assuming as he adamantly defends this even when Paul himself says "This is causing problems,") took a look at tabletop and said.. "Okay, a turn is 10 seconds.. But if I am in a tournament and I fire at the 10th second, my cooling is all done instantly. Therefore heating up and cooling is instant!" Facepalm. It's a system of averages, and because of the limitations whether you fire at 0 seconds or at 10, it has to work out as it's just one turn.

Read on if you dare.

Spoiler

But to take that, then try to force it into a static you cool down 1 point per 10 seconds per standard heatsink... it doesn't work without accepting that cooling takes time. So instead they tried to simulate that and the "Summary heat" of tabletop by putting a Base of 30 + your heatsinks to capacity. The problem here is that summary heat (sometimes called excess heat) is just the left over heat at the conclusion of the turn with a full 10 seconds worth of cooling over time, regardless of when you fire due to it being a system of averages.

The result isn't too bad at first. 10 Standard heatsinks = 10 + 30 base = 40 with 10 cooling per 10 seconds or 1 cooling per second.
10 Double heatsinks = 20 + 30 base = 50 with 20 cooling per 10 seconds or 2 cooling per second.

Wait a minute... We already have a problem here. Double heatsinks are more than twice as good as standard heatsinks from the very start! And so the bandaging began. "We'll reduce all heatsinks to 1.4... Or at least we were going to but then decided engine heatsinks can stay 2.0 cooling and 2.0 threshold increase due to a bug we found and decided not to fix. We're happy with it." Okay, great...

"Oh, we thought of how to add pilot skills to the mix." They all start out 2.2%. At the time the basics got tripled when you Mastered your mech. So 2.2 became 6.6%. So your 50 capacity turned into 53.3%. No big deal, no one cares.

Then heat containment got bumped to 10% It doesn't triple but it doubles. At a 20% increase your capacity for 10 double heatsinks is now 60. Not only are you twice as good as standard heatsinks in cooling, but you also have 50% more capacity too! Doesn't that make 10 DHS approximately 150% superior to SHS from the get-go? People wonder why trial mechs have such a hard time?

This is the very root of many problems in MWO. It isn't all of the problems as that root has friends, but it is the very reason Paul had to make that ridiculous penalty system. Personally I think we'd all like him better if he just stood up to the others and said the capacity system needs to be changed instead of biting his tongue saying "We haven't found a need to do that yet," while staring at the metaphorical barrel to his head since someone higher on the food chain adamantly believes that rising capacity system is necessary.

If we hard-set it, we'd have a much better balancing tool at our disposal.

Spoiler

For this example I'm using tabletop heat values of 15 for ER PPCs.
For instance we could improve the quality of the Awesome by giving it a higher capacity than a Victor to compensate for its high energy reliance. A capacity of 45 for example, allowing it 3 ER PPCs and shutdown. Then with the 20% increase in heat containment, it'd go up to 54, allowing it to shoot and move even on high heat maps, though it'd have to wait 10 seconds to fire all 3 again.

Meanwhile a Stalker might get a capacity of 38. It can't fire 3 ER PPCs without receiving damage. With heat containment at the elite level it'd get 20%, 45.6, where it could safely fire 3 ER PPCs while standing perfectly still on Alpine. Clearly while the Stalker could fire 3 after the upgrade in pilot skill, it's too risky to alpha strike it. This would discourage its use and clearly you want an Awesome for that.

Suddenly the Awesome became cool.

Does that mean the Stalker couldn't use 6 ER PPCs? Not at all. Let's assume it has 17 DHS at true 2.0 dissipation. 17*2 = 34 / 10 = 3.4 cooling per second.
Stalker fires 1 ER PPC at 0 seconds, starting our timer. 15 heat spike.

Spoiler

At 1 second the Stalker cools 3.4 to make 11.6. He fires the second ER PPC. + 15 for 26.6.
At 2 seconds it cools off 3.4 to make 23.2. It uses this time to line up another shot.
At 3 seconds the stalker fires a third shot. + 15 heat for 38.2 - 3.4 cooling = 34.8.
It's risky to shoot at 4 seconds. -3.4 heat for 31.4.
At 5 seconds - 3.4 for 28 heat and fires a forth shot + 15. 43. Since we are in Alpine in a fully elited Stalker, we're good but now we have to stop moving to help reduce our heat.
At 6 seconds - 3.4 to make 39.6
At 7 seconds - 3.4 to make 36.2.
At 8 seconds - 3.4 to make 32.8.
At 9 seconds - 3.4 to make 29.4. Fire a fifth ER PPC for 15 heat. 44.4.
At 10 seconds - 3.4 to make 41 heat. Fire a 6th for fun. 15 heat. 56.

At the end of 10 seconds, 56 heat and shutdown. Now I confess I forgot to include the 15% faster cooling you get with Elite-level Cool Run. So in reality he'd be even cooler. But that beats the alpha strike nonsense we have now.

I'd like to quote this.

Quote

Answer from Paul: Previous versions of MechWarrior suffered from the arms race or high alpha usage. Alpha strikes were a RARE occurrence in BattleTech. They were last ditch efforts against enemies. All previous MW games allowed this mechanic to become almost the norm of gameplay.

And then quote this from someone who listened to the hour long balance discussion me and some members of Zhizhu had.

Quote

[color="#333333"]"[/color]The best part about this video is that I saw this coming - 6 months ago. MWO's implementation of heat cap increasing with heat sinks. I see that in 6 months it has yet to be changed - and in fact there is now a "ghost heat" system to prop up a failed system. Most unfortunate.

I think that with the current system as it stands, the math will always favour high alpha, low dissipation - A "sniper" meta with oneshot-wonders, poptart sniping, high boating. Unless hardpoint size restrictions are implemented - or a massive nerf to heat cap and heat dissipation propped up - the game will continue to deviate further and further from canon heat values."

And wonder... why hasn't PGI made this fundamental change? Right now I can make a realistic build that has a capacity of 88.56. MW4 according to a wiki I read, had a standard capacity of 60 (and was deemed as the most poorly balanced MW game to ever exist).

So why, oh why... do we still have the rising capacity system which only encourages alpha strikes by simple math when even a fair amount of PGI agrees that according to lore, alpha strikes were rare in BattleTech?

[Modo44]

Koniving, on 31 August 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

Yeah... That bobbing crosshair should be in first person too. It's do wonders for the pinpoint issue and mobile snipers.

It would also get rid of any and all mechs that rely on shooting while running, i.e. all lights and many heavier ones.

[Edustaja]

I actually feel that the game is in a pretty good shape. At least in the solo queue

SRM's work decently.
Some mediums are pretty doable, but could use a bit of love.
C1 catapult works decently.
Machineguns feel pretty useful for their weight.
The LB-10X is pretty good at last.
Streaks are balanced.
LRM's are a bit tricky to use, but very close to balanced
3PV isn't the end of the world that some have made it out to be. Making it a module would imo balance it out completely.
UAC/5 is good for it's weight AC/5 works too

Spider hitboxes and HSR need more work
Large pulses need some love
Gauss + 2 ppc is a slightly too good.

[Koniving]

Modo44, on 31 August 2013 - 12:30 PM, said:

It would also get rid of any and all mechs that rely on shooting while running, i.e. all lights and many heavier ones.

Not really, bobbing can be compensated. Most people using third person actually find that hitting things is easier (because they can see the convergence happen). I have a harder time being accurate, but that's ultimately the goal. I can still bullseye side torsos, center torsos, etc. just as easy as the crosshairs only bounce up and down. Arms are harder to hit but who intentionally aims for arms?

You'll also notice it bounces less for some mechs and more for others, diversifying them further.

[Koniving]

The main thing to remember is that it's like a cone of accuracy that is pinpoint in it fires where you point it, when you point it.

A cone of accuracy it's purely random you could aim for someone's head and shoot yourself in the foot. Here, it's a bob and you just time your autocannon or PPC shot with the crosshair being on the right spot at the right time. We just enhanced the skill based element of MWO.

As a pilot of all mechs, I have to tell you this wouldn't affect me as a light. In fact it'd increase my survivability as a light when others go to shoot me.

(The intro makes fun of the stock goldenboy but then goes on to the Death's Knell kicking butt).


The bob doesn't really affect my lasers, and for pinpoint weapons it's just when I click the button.

[Tolkien]

Tarzilman, on 31 August 2013 - 11:05 AM, said:

I see. Also I saw all your points before you explained them to me in a surprisingly factual way. If everybody of your "hate-buddies" would have shown so much a calm and patient kind of writing, I wouldn't be so biased against the critics.
Yes, I'm just playing for about two months and therefore I am not so handicapped and have a different point of view. But I've played many games where balancing matters and MWO is the first game where I'm not getting so frustrated after ten matches like I got in other games. The balancing is right, though many of you "veterans" got disappointed about decisions like heat penalty.

Thank you for recognizing that I am not a monster, lol.

The balance right now is much better than it has been in the past, though as with all pvp games it will need constant tweaking as every new chassis, map etc. comes out and changes how the systems can and can't be used.

The ghost heat system / heat scale system is a bugbear for many as it broke their favourite builds (boo hoo, not a lot of sympathy here) but also because
1) Good luck explaining it to a beginner.
2) It seems to still have some bugs such as attacking AC2's randomly
3) It penalizes some very odd combinations that no one ever used such as large pulse lasers combined with ER Large Lasers
4) 'Best of luck' making it work with clan tech (e.g. Ultra AC20.....)

Anyway up until 3pv I was still shelling out for the overlord package and still content to wait and see how development would go despite all of the missed deadlines so far. Put another way I still had faith PGI was working to deliver the product they had advertised when I signed up as a founder. The fundamental change was when they went back on their word on 3pv for two reasons.

1) I never would have bought in to a 3rd pv game, and this felt like a total bait and switch.
2) I now can't believe anything they promise on what they will deliver eventually. This is the big problem as it means I can't give them more money and trust it will be used to make the game they said they would make. Basically as a community we are on notice that if they think they can make more money by changing *anything* they will do it, no matter what they may have promised in the past. For me this is too much, and I want to make sure that everyone knows they have done this so they can spend their money with eyes open, knowing that the game might 'change direction' suddenly and like us founders they won't be able to get their money back, even if they never would have bought in knowing that change was coming.

Sorry for the long ramble, I just wanted to be clear about why I feel the way I do. I do still care about the game and want it to succeed, but I feel very betrayed by the developer.

Void Angel, on 31 August 2013 - 11:05 AM, said:

That coolshot advantage lasted for all of what? One patch cycle? And it was changed because of player responses to that advantage, which demonstrates that PGI does listen to the player base. They announced a change in that mechanic within days of its original debut.

That's quite true that it never actually made it in game, but I am pretty sure it was only changed in response to a big outcry in the forums when the system was announced. I still recall Paul defending the original design (where you could use two Cbill shots, or 1 MC shot for the same amount of cooling) as 'Think of it this way, you get to use it at two times which is an advantage!'..... I guess he didn't understand that losing a module slot was a disadvantage... derp?

[Modo44]

Dude, that bobbing/bouncing is what makes people nauseous, and turn 3pv off. It is the same actual medical issue that made strong jj shake impractical. Put in into mechs -- all mechs -- and you will permanently lose players.

[johnyboy420]

you know this game has no form of matchmaker right this ELO system that PGI says they implemented is non exsistent i have tested this there is no elo or form of matchmaker on top of that sniper weps they could be boated hard but that has been nurfed some what and the PPC wep speed is stupid you can hit someone from 1000m in 0.45 of a sec its impossible too miss with that gun and the one thing that ****** me off and never saw coming because in closed beta they didnt have mechs that can use sniper gear and jj IE the poptart you know the one thing that killed mech4 the hardest for me and most other people

and too top it all off PGI thinks this is fine and im not there core player in their mind even though mechwarrior2 was the game that got me in too PC games and mechwarrior is one of my favs but that doesn't mean i'll enjoy it if the weps are unbalanced and the game plays like **** like this game has the worst netcode i've ever seen in my life theres a reason this game only made 80 bucks off of me and im going too keep putting my money where my mouth is you know after this game being in any form of beta for 1.7 years i'd expect too see more then new mechs and a few maps i want too see big netcode fixs way better reg like i mean lot better and not weps like streaks working like mech2 LRMS like WTF

i played closed beta before i even got a founders and i have lost all hope for PGI i dont see them coming out of this now
and PGI just for you i've givin RSI/CIG 365US/400can and i even haven't played CR's game. all that with out even playing his beta thats because his resume is 600x better then your team GL better make some changes or when SC comes out i dont think i will come back

PS: Chris isnt doing it for the money he's doing for the game, the game he and everyone else who loves spacesims will have too play hands down this is a must LOL

Edited by johnyboy420, 31 August 2013 - 01:30 PM.

[Tolkien]

johnyboy420, on 31 August 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

...

I feel your pain.... well some of it, but when you say it like that it makes people lose focus on what you are saying rather than how you are saying it. You have reasons to be upset, but it's easier for people to sympathise when you put it calmly.

[johnyboy420]

iv had it man this has when on for too long ( )

Edited by johnyboy420, 31 August 2013 - 01:41 PM.

[Void Angel]

johnyboy420, on 31 August 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

you know this game has no form of matchmaker right this ELO system that PGI says they implemented is non exsistent i have tested this there is no elo or form of matchmaker on top of that sniper weps they could be boated hard but that has been nurfed some what and the PPC wep speed is stupid you can hit someone from 1000m in 0.45 of a sec its impossible too miss with that gun and the one thing that ****** me off and never saw coming because in closed beta they didnt have mechs that can use sniper gear and jj IE the poptart you know the one thing that killed mech4 the hardest for me and most other people

and too top it all off PGI thinks this is fine and im not there core player in their mind even though mechwarrior2 was the game that got me in too PC games and mechwarrior is one of my favs but that doesn't mean i'll enjoy it if the weps are unbalanced and the game plays like **** like this game has the worst netcode i've ever seen in my life theres a reason this game only made 80 bucks off of me and im going too keep putting my money where my mouth is you know after this game being in any form of beta for 1.7 years i'd expect too see more then new mechs and a few maps i want too see big netcode fixs way better reg like i mean lot better and not weps like streaks working like mech2 LRMS like WTF

i played closed beta before i even got a founders and i have lost all hope for PGI i dont see them coming out of this now
and PGI just for you i've givin RSI/CIG 365US/400can and i even haven't played CR's game. all that with out even playing his beta thats because his resume is 600x better then your team GL better make some changes or when SC comes out i dont think i will come back

PS: Chris isnt doing it for the money he's doing for the game, the game he and everyone else who loves spacesims will have too play hands down this is a must LOL

I'm sorry, bud, but your claim to have conducted testing based on numbers you can't see...
which are used as part of a weighted matchmaking system (the precise weights of which you do not know, and change with time taken to match...)
and which requires a demographic level of information for accuracy which you cannot collect...

... Is just made less credible by your utter lack of punctuation.

PS: You have seen big netcode fixes - and I'm just gonna stop reading now.

[Void Angel]

Koniving, on 31 August 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

Actually that coolshot thing in its original form never made it to our game. Once released as far as I know it remained completely unchanged.

Yeah, you're right; I didn't remember if they actually put it in and just pulled it really fast - I was in a hurry and didn't want to overstate my case.

As far as a smaller heat scale with different regen... You've actually sold me on that, in other posts - but you've done so in spite of appealing occasionally to the "lore." The flavor text which accompanied the tabletop BattleTech/Mechwarrior games is useful to us only for thematic purposes. It's not helpful to game balance discussions, because what matters in game balance is... game balance. If a sidebar from Page Whatever in a rulebook somewhere says something about how things work, but that thing needs to be different for Weapon B to be balanced, then game balance should win - because after all, we're actually playing the game, not living in the flavor-text game universe. So long as a certain thematic flavor is preserved, strict adherence to either tabletop rules or "lore" is not required in the least.

And why has my faction icon changed back once again to the fracking Marik Chicken?

[Tolkien]

Void Angel, on 31 August 2013 - 03:29 PM, said:

Yeah, you're right; I didn't remember if they actually put it in and just pulled it really fast - I was in a hurry and didn't want to overstate my case.

As far as a smaller heat scale with different regen... You've actually sold me on that, in other posts - but you've done so in spite of appealing occasionally to the "lore." The flavor text which accompanied the tabletop BattleTech/Mechwarrior games is useful to us only for thematic purposes. It's not helpful to game balance discussions, because what matters in game balance is... game balance. If a sidebar from Page Whatever in a rulebook somewhere says something about how things work, but that thing needs to be different for Weapon B to be balanced, then game balance should win - because after all, we're actually playing the game, not living in the flavor-text game universe. So long as a certain thematic flavor is preserved, strict adherence to either tabletop rules or "lore" is not required in the least.

And why has my faction icon changed back once again to the fracking Marik Chicken?

I've been having the random marik problem too so I started a bug report thread.... it's probably just them breaking the database, no biggie.

http://mwomercs.com/...domly-changing/


As far as lore vs. gameplay I'm right there with you. Amusingly I point to ECM as a case where the first version was too focused on lore/Sarna fluff than anything and gameplay suffered as a result. I say lore and not 'rules' since ECM does several things differently to the tabletop version.

[Void Angel]

Kinda. It's actually VERY close to the double-blind TT rules. A few slight variances, but the double blind rules had sensor spotting rules in them - which ECM affected. In fact, ECM is less powerful in some ways than the TT version. In tabletop, ECM magically affected anyone whose line of sight passed through the ECM sphere.

[Koniving]

Void Angel, on 31 August 2013 - 03:29 PM, said:

And why has my faction icon changed back once again to the fracking Marik Chicken?

That keeps happening to me too. It's been getting annoying. Not that there's anything wrong with that group, but the lore of where Zhizhu comes from has us allied with Liao. >.>; Though many of our group wanted to abandon that soon as we discovered Lowtax joined it too. Personally I don't care; I like killing them and squawking at them but I haven't seen them around much. It's the fact that they squawk and are trolls in the battlefield that makes me hate them -- despite how I also run troll builds. I just find my troll builds to be more challenging to use and less instant win.

[Rushyo]

MEANWHILE... back on topic....
Our handsome protagonist is getting ready to type a reply:

Quote

I get shot at without even detecting the enemy from ranges where it seems impossible to be spotted.

You're not detecting them, presumably, because they have ECM. You're being spotted by them because there's no good reason for them not to spot you. They're sniping, you're (it seems) not. Don't stick your neck out in the big wide open without a strategy. If you don't have a reason to be visible from across the map, make a point of not being visible from across the map. The single biggest factor that impacts your survivability (excluding teamwork) is learning how to maneuver so you're hidden by default.

Quote

Even if I am in a heavy mech, I usually last 10 seconds before I get killed when I am fighting 1v1.

Don't fight 1v1? No, seriously: Don't fight 1v1. The only excuse for fighting alone is all your teammates died whilst you were backing them up. The fact is unless they've somehow min-maxed their mech to be 2x as effective as yours (unlikely unless your builds are truly abysmal), bringing a mate along to an otherwise fair fight is a sure fire way to maximise the outcome of that fight.

The game is specifically geared so that teamwork, even vague ****** teamwork, gives you the advantage. There are two entire companies of Mechs on the battlefield. If you're so far away from everyone else that you can have a duel with someone, something has gone horribly wrong (or you're hunting wabbi... lights, but that's a different thread).

...and now for something completely different:

Quote

ELO system that PGI says they implemented is non exsistent i have tested this there is no elo or form of matchmaker

With scientific rigour, one assumes? How did you manage to get sufficient numbers and control for all the factors? I'd love to repeat your experiment!

Quote

and the PPC wep speed is stupid you can hit someone from 1000m in 0.45 of a sec its impossible too miss with that gun

Relative to what? I can only assume you mean relative to MW4, where you could practically eat a sandwich before a PPC bolt turned up. I agree it's impossible to miss... an assault. But then that's sort of a defining feature of an assault, I'd think. If an assault is dodging anything then something has gone wrong. Or are you suggesting hitting a spider with a PPC is a piece of cake? I purport that particular piece of cake is a lie.

Quote

IE the poptart you know the one thing that killed mech4 the hardest for me and most other people

So now having a slow PPC bolt (as per MW4) is bad too? Make up your mind. Did MW4 do it right or did it do it wrong?

Quote

this game has the worst netcode i've ever seen in my life

Everyone who has played MW3 online, or indeed anyone who wasn't breastfed on xDSL, is surely laughing their ***** off at this statement.

Quote

i want too see big netcode fixs way better

I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure most of everyone else has seen a massive improvement in the netcode.

Quote

PS: Chris isnt doing it for the money he's doing for the game, the game he and everyone else who loves spacesims will have too play hands down this is a must LOL

Yes, because this game is clearly a sell out. There's patently no attempt to faithfully create a MechWarrior experience and it is, in fact, basically a cash-in. There's no attention to detail in anything and everything is basically phoned in. That's what your saying here, yes?

Always assume ignorance over malice.
Always assume ignorance over malice.
Always assume ignorance over malice.
Always assume ignorance over malice.
Always assume ignorance over malice.

Edited by Rushyo, 31 August 2013 - 04:07 PM.

[Koniving]

Void Angel, on 31 August 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

Kinda. It's actually VERY close to the double-blind TT rules. A few slight variances, but the double blind rules had sensor spotting rules in them - which ECM affected. In fact, ECM is less powerful in some ways than the TT version. In tabletop, ECM magically affected anyone whose line of sight passed through the ECM sphere.

Minus double blind rules, ECM granted the abilities of Stealth Armor, Angel ECM, and Guardian ECM all at the same time in its original form. It still grants Stealth Armor.

[Koniving]

Rushyo, on 31 August 2013 - 04:06 PM, said:

Relative to what? I can only assume you mean relative to MW4, where you could practically eat a sandwich before a PPC bolt turned up. I agree it's impossible to miss... an assault. But then that's sort of a defining feature of an assault, I'd think. If an assault is dodging anything then something has gone wrong. Or are you suggesting hitting a spider with a PPC is a piece of cake? I purport that particular piece of cake is a lie.

I can agree with all but this. Here we go, pre HSR, youtube's very first Raven killed by a Spider. It was a 3L. There was no HSR. PPCs travelled 1200 m/s. (I'll confess that Raven wasn't moving very fast.)


And actually hitting a spider isn't that hard either, if you go for the leg and not the torso. In fact it was the bane of existence and why I started roof top sniping back then. Of course, it was easy to headshot Spiders with an AC/20 back then as well in the later part of this after 4:55 (the first match I was too nervous with revisiting the old design without knockdowns to help me drop kick Atlases).

It's after HSR that they became hard to hit.

Edited by Koniving, 31 August 2013 - 04:17 PM.