40 replies to this topic

[MeiSooHaityu]

If a light is carrying just 1 ERPPC, I don't see the heat scale change being THAT bad. It seems to make the bigger issue is carrying 2 or more.

Besides, a light can step down to a PPC from an ER with no real ill effects. Yes the range is reduced, but the min range penalty of a standard PPC shouldn't be a big issue on a mech that should be fast enough to create a 90m gap between him/herself and the enemy to fire.

[Trauglodyte]

I'm sad for the OP that s/he can't overcome a slight change. It is awful that s/he has to *gasp* manage heat and aim better.

[Kazairl]

Trauglodyte, on 05 September 2013 - 07:25 AM, said:

I'm sad for the OP that s/he can't overcome a slight change. It is awful that s/he has to *gasp* manage heat and aim better.

There has been a definite change in my and my friends success rate since the patch. It feels like I have been firing blanks all night. After spending another evening playing I am starting to wonder if the PPC changes are the cause of my frustration. Could it be that the Host State Rewind changes have actually harmed high latency players rather than helped them?

Edit: /sigh Looks like this thread has been moved out of the Balance forum. Fail. Pretty sure I am talking about balance changes since the patch.

Edited by Kazairl, 05 September 2013 - 07:42 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Honest opinion, a Light Mech SHOULD have some heat issues with a PPC and especially an ER PPC. 2 Should be all but impossible to run without near instant shutdown or Clan Tech.

An upper end Medium should be able to run 2 PPC but be very hot, or a single ER PPC, pretty well. (primary weapons indicate that the weapon is the PRIMARY, after all, and thus, fired a lot.) Once you get to the Jagers and up, then 2 PPC should be pretty reasonable to run with minor heat, and maybe the 70/75 ton range for dual ER PPC. That said, nothing short of an Awesome should be able to just spam PPC/ER PPC fire without blinking, IMO. (And I love my PPCs). In the fluff, even the 3050 versions of the Warhammer and Marauder were considered "hot" mechs.

One SHOULD be forced to volley fire. Either long range PPC fire OR short range weapons. An alpha strike from these mechs should put them on the verge of overheat. And the WHM for instance, was designed as in infighter, so it should be set so that mechs like it can fight at range, but the heat/effectiveness would encourage the mech to close and then use it's close range weapons, instead of this stupid, boring, static snipe meta.

That said, the triple whammy of nerfs seems extreme. Raise heat, fine. Remove the minimal damage at PBR? OK. Reduce projectile speed? Well, I don't like it, but if that was ALL, I would be OK, though I would prefer the other nerfs to it. All 3? Overkill. Try one or maybe 2 of the changes, then re-assess. Just my 2 ct.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 05 September 2013 - 08:38 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

I'm ok with the heat and speed changes. Doing 0 damage within 90m is a little harsh when I woul dhave been just as ok had they pushed the minimum range up to 180m. My thing is this: I was using PPCs back at the release of Open Beta when they were 10 heat (like now) and something like 800m/s speed (1500m/s now). And that was with no HSR and with everyone lagging around like mad. I tried them out Tuesday night and, while I've got to lead my target a bit more, the change isn't horrible.

To that end, we've seen the winter of multi-PPC boating. You simply can't do it and the lack of damage within 90m means that you can't take the chance of mounting too many of them at the expense of medium/short ranged weapons. And, ladies and gentlemen, THAT is a wonderous thing. We've also seen the end of, or at least the shift away from, PPC+Gauss.

Quote

Honest opinion, a Light Mech SHOULD have some heat issues with a PPC and especially an ER PPC. 2 Should be all but impossible to run without near instant shutdown or Clan Tech.

An upper end Medium should be able to run 2 PPC but be very hot, or a single ER PPC, pretty well. (primary weapons indicate that the weapon is the PRIMARY, after all, and thus, fired a lot.) Once you get to the Jagers and up, then 2 PPC should be pretty reasonable to run with minor heat, and maybe the 70/75 ton range for dual ER PPC. That said, nothing short of an Awesome should be able to just spam PPC/ER PPC fire without blinking, IMO. (And I love my PPCs). In the fluff, even the 3050 versions of the Warhammer and Marauder were considered "hot" mechs.

One SHOULD be forced to volley fire. Either long range PPC fire OR short range weapons. An alpha strike from these mechs should put them on the verge of overheat. And the WHM for instance, was designed as in infighter, so it should be set so that mechs like it can fight at range, but the heat/effectiveness would encourage the mech to close and then use it's close range weapons, instead of this stupid, boring, static snipe meta.

I support ALL of the above.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Bishop Steiner, on 05 September 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

Honest opinion, a Light Mech SHOULD have some heat issues with a PPC and especially an ER PPC. 2 Should be all but impossible to run without near instant shutdown or Clan Tech.

An upper end Medium should be able to run 2 PPC but be very hot, or a single ER PPC, pretty well. (primary weapons indicate that the weapon is the PRIMARY, after all, and thus, fired a lot.) Once you get to the Jagers and up, then 2 PPC should be pretty reasonable to run with minor heat, and maybe the 70/75 ton range for dual ER PPC. That said, nothing short of an Awesome should be able to just spam PPC/ER PPC fire without blinking, IMO. (And I love my PPCs). In the fluff, even the 3050 versions of the Warhammer and Marauder were considered "hot" mechs.

One SHOULD be forced to volley fire. Either long range PPC fire OR short range weapons. An alpha strike from these mechs should put them on the verge of overheat. And the WHM for instance, was designed as in infighter, so it should be set so that mechs like it can fight at range, but the heat/effectiveness would encourage the mech to close and then use it's close range weapons, instead of this stupid, boring, static snipe meta.

That said, the triple whammy of nerfs seems extreme. Raise heat, fine. Remove the minimal damage at PBR? OK. Reduce projectile speed? Well, I don't like it, but if that was ALL, I would be OK, though I would prefer the other nerfs to it. All 3? Overkill. Try one or maybe 2 of the changes, then re-assess. Just my 2 ct.

I kinda of agree with your evaluation here but what we have now isn't what your describing.

My Stalker 3F mounted Dual ER PPCs with 18 DHS and 18 DHS wasn't even enough to keep me from overheating after firing them paired 3 times in succession. 18 DHS is approaching the maximum you can mount on a mech. I also have 4 MLs on this Stalker but the problem is that with only being able to fire my ER PPCs 2-3 times before overheating, it isn't even an either ER PPCs or MLs scenerio. I mean I would be fine being able to sustain fire my ER PPCs or my MLs but not both, but I can't sustain fire my ER PPCs because they are too hot.

This comes back to the old low heat threshold, high heat dissapation arguement. With a low threshold, my example Stalker could alway fire part of it's armament, but never all, at least not without going straight to overheat. However I could fire my ER PPCs all day long as long as I didn't also try to fire my MLs.

[Bishop Steiner]

Viktor Drake, on 05 September 2013 - 01:35 PM, said:

I kinda of agree with your evaluation here but what we have now isn't what your describing.

My Stalker 3F mounted Dual ER PPCs with 18 DHS and 18 DHS wasn't even enough to keep me from overheating after firing them paired 3 times in succession. 18 DHS is approaching the maximum you can mount on a mech. I also have 4 MLs on this Stalker but the problem is that with only being able to fire my ER PPCs 2-3 times before overheating, it isn't even an either ER PPCs or MLs scenerio. I mean I would be fine being able to sustain fire my ER PPCs or my MLs but not both, but I can't sustain fire my ER PPCs because they are too hot.

This comes back to the old low heat threshold, high heat dissapation arguement. With a low threshold, my example Stalker could alway fire part of it's armament, but never all, at least not without going straight to overheat. However I could fire my ER PPCs all day long as long as I didn't also try to fire my MLs.

but yous see. that's kinda my point. 2 ER PPC 3 times in succession, or just over 10 second. Remember, I love my PPCs. But recently I have been thinking about the snipe meta, and realistically, the amount of PPC spam was absurd. I am running 2 PPC on my Orion. With missiles and a UAC5 in support. If I spam PPC fire nonstop, after 6 volleys or so, I am in heat distress. If I try to alpha, in short order I am in heat distress. If I deliberately pick my shots, and maybe fire 2 times per 10 seconds with them, my heat is pretty manageable. If I use ER PPCs,it gets bad, but with their insane range, I can snipe, or spam for a bit, then relocate to a better hide. Again, the way one SHOULD snipe. (Heck I believe doctrine still calls for snipers to move their hide every 2-3 shots). And if I used them mixed with my close range weaponry as an occasional supplement to exploit a damaged location, I do OK.

What one cannot do is sit back and spam anymore, or try to constantly alpha whilst brawling. And TBH, I think that is not a bad thing. Large Lasers and such have trade offs, like keeping weapons on target while you fight. So IDK, the heat is bothering me less than I thought it might. Where I am still irritated is the removal of incremental damage under 90 meters ON TOP of the other nerfs (heat and projectile speed are plenty), and that the Awesome is still hit with Ghost Heat, when it SHOULD be able to fire 3 PPC. Also with the heat back, Gauss Charge and such, Ghost Heat, which they spent so much time designing, is feeling less needed, which just makes the complexity and convoluted nature of that "fix" even more absurd.

The K2 should be able to REASONABLY fire 2 PPC, as it was designed to do so. And it can. Reasonably. It can't spam them nonstop, especially in conjunction with other weapons. And it can't run ER PPC without issues, but then, it was never meant to run ER PPC. My Cataphract and Orion can both Comfortably run PPCs, and while I have to be careful, so can my VTR. All need volley fire and cooldowns to even THINK about running ERs.

So, IDK bro, still got a lot of testing to do, but despite my misgivings, I am not finding the heat as big a deal as many do.

[Utilyan]

SteelPaladin, on 04 September 2013 - 08:47 PM, said:

Just be glad you've got speed and ECM on your side. If you were this guy, you'd be humped in MWO: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Panther

Today I was inspired by this post to make a wana-be panther out of a raven-4x. Got ppc, srm4, jump jets, i put a 140 to give me the exact speed.....

I do so horrible in this mech


I'm going to actually try to follow through what the fluff says "The Panther operates as a direct fire support 'Mech for other light units."

So im just gonna follow our lights........

[DrxAbstract]

Kazairl, on 04 September 2013 - 08:24 PM, said:

I understand the changes to PPC's are to stop Alpha-stirke snipers. But what about us?

As a dedicated Spotter (Raven 3L) I always felt that a single ERPPC was the only viable weapon of choice.

I always appreciated the fact that in short range duels with other fast movers I was at a serious disadvantage. With this patch however I get a reduction in throughput by 25% not to mention the difficulties in hitting a transing target with the new slower projectile. It has killed my spotter build. Now I may as well log off when I see a Jenner coming.

So what can I use now instead of an ERPPC?

Other options for my build are:
2x ERLLaser: too heavy, and makes the firers position VERY obvious.
1x PPC: leaves me defenseless at short range.
1x LRM10: still defenseless at short range, but also ammo dependent and inaccurate.
2x MLaser: Not enough firepower and makes the firers position obvious.
2x MPLaser: Good dps, but WAY too short range and makes the firers position obvious.
1x SRM6: Impossible to hit a transing target, ammo dependent, too inaccurate and too short range.

Seriously; was a single ERPPC Raven over powered?

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0f562ff597d7b8d

Your argument concerning visibility is invalid; You're talking about a level of gameplay where the people that dont matter wont notice and the ones that do are going to know your position the moment you pull the trigger regardless of which weapon you fire... The inherent risk of engaging any target in combat - giving away your position.

Given the way you built that Raven, against any competent player, you are toast the moment they catch you:

1. You have no backup or defensive weapons.
2. You dont have the speed to re-position, escape or evade weapons fire.

For being so concerned with optimization, your armor loadout is the opposite - fully armored arm just for NARC? Decreased leg armor? If you dont like the build i posted you can ditch the ER Large and Med Pulse for an ER PPC and still be faster than your build, with all the little 'intel' quirks you wanted. Or ditch the engine speed for an extra heat sink and same speed.

Edited by DrxAbstract, 05 September 2013 - 04:37 PM.

[Blue Hymn]

With all this talk about PPCs, I wonder if the Awesome would ever get a say in this.
I mean, not that the Awesome is designed to BOAT PPCs and be a stable platform for USING PPCS...you know.

Edited by Blue Hymn, 05 September 2013 - 04:42 PM.

[DrxAbstract]

Blue Hymn, on 05 September 2013 - 04:42 PM, said:

With all this talk about PPCs, I wonder if the Awesome would ever get a say in this.
I mean, not that the Awesome is designed to BOAT PPCs and be a stable platform for USING PPCS...you know.

You mean the mech designed and built for use in an entirely different medium?

It has 3 because PPCs fire once per 10sec... Although, even in BT, you were supposed to chainfire those PPCs. You suffered from heat problems doing it in BT and you suffer for chainfiring PPCs in MWO. There's nothing stopping you from using PPCs, or ER PPCs... just Alpha'ing them, which you werent supposed to be doing in the first place.

2 ER PPCs and 1 PPC instead of 3 PPCs - problem solved.

[Kazairl]

DrxAbstract, on 05 September 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0f562ff597d7b8d

This is decent build no deigning that. I should probably look at changing my engine. Only thing stopping me is price.

DrxAbstract, on 05 September 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:

Your argument concerning visibility is invalid; You're talking about a level of gameplay where the people that dont matter wont notice and the ones that do are going to know your position the moment you pull the trigger regardless of which weapon you fire... The inherent risk of engaging any target in combat - giving away your position.

This is not true in my experience. Shoot when the LRM'***** and they don't realize you're there. As long as you are far enough away and not silhouetted you can stand still when they look at you and they don't see you. It helps to not shine a laser pointer in their eyes at that time. Camo helps.

DrxAbstract, on 05 September 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:

Given the way you built that Raven, against any competent player, you are toast the moment they catch you:

1. You have no backup or defensive weapons.
2. You dont have the speed to re-position, escape or evade weapons fire.

And this is why I don't think the ER PPC needed nerfing.

DrxAbstract, on 05 September 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:

For being so concerned with optimization, your armor loadout is the opposite - fully armored arm just for NARC? Decreased leg armor? If you dont like the build i posted you can ditch the ER Large and Med Pulse for an ER PPC and still be faster than your build, with all the little 'intel' quirks you wanted. Or ditch the engine speed for an extra heat sink and same speed.

In defense of my build; my engine was dictated by cost when I made it and since then I haven't wanted to break a winning formula. In retrospect I should rearrange some armor, and having NARC ammo in my leg is stupid. At the time I didn't think it would be explosive.

[Trauglodyte]

Technically, the Awesome was designed to fire 3, then 2, then 2, then repeat the cycle of 3-2-2. That was the only way it could maintain heat control. I don't have any issues in my AWS-9M but I also don't fire my PPCs with wreckless abandon then wonder why I'm getting destroyed. Plus, there is no law or rule that dictates that you've got to run all ER PPCs on your Awesomes. I do just fine with 1 ER, 2 Reg, and 3 Md Pulse Lasers. You could get SUPER crazy and go 1 ER PPC, 2 Lrg Pulse Lasers, and 3 Md Lasers.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 06 September 2013 - 07:03 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Trauglodyte, on 06 September 2013 - 06:53 AM, said:

Technically, the Awesome was designed to fire 3, then 2, then 2, then repeat the cycle of 3-2-2. That was the only way it could maintain heat control. I don't have any issues in my AWS-9M but I also don't fire my PPCs with wreckless abandon then wonder why I'm getting destroyed. Plus, there is no law or rule that dictates that you've got to run all ER PPCs on your Awesomes. I do just fine with 1 ER, 2 Reg, and 3 Md Pulse Lasers. You could get SUPER crazy and go 1 ER PPC, 2 Lrg Pulse Lasers, and 3 Md Lasers.

Actually, it was meant to fire 3-3-2-3-3-2.

30 heat, 28 heat sinks. Add another 2 for running if you want, means 4 waste heat per turn. or 8 after 2, easily dissipated by firing 2 ppc while stationary on the 3rd turn.

What can I say, pre-MW:O hitbox fiasco, I loved my Awesomes.

(Also, if one is going "turret mode", then you can go 3-3-3-3-2, wash, rinse and repeat. It's why one of my Merc Units has an entire lance of the things)

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 06 September 2013 - 10:23 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Bishop Steiner, on 05 September 2013 - 01:55 PM, said:

but yous see. that's kinda my point. 2 ER PPC 3 times in succession, or just over 10 second. Remember, I love my PPCs. But recently I have been thinking about the snipe meta, and realistically, the amount of PPC spam was absurd. I am running 2 PPC on my Orion. With missiles and a UAC5 in support. If I spam PPC fire nonstop, after 6 volleys or so, I am in heat distress. If I try to alpha, in short order I am in heat distress. If I deliberately pick my shots, and maybe fire 2 times per 10 seconds with them, my heat is pretty manageable. If I use ER PPCs,it gets bad, but with their insane range, I can snipe, or spam for a bit, then relocate to a better hide. Again, the way one SHOULD snipe. (Heck I believe doctrine still calls for snipers to move their hide every 2-3 shots). And if I used them mixed with my close range weaponry as an occasional supplement to exploit a damaged location, I do OK.

What one cannot do is sit back and spam anymore, or try to constantly alpha whilst brawling. And TBH, I think that is not a bad thing. Large Lasers and such have trade offs, like keeping weapons on target while you fight. So IDK, the heat is bothering me less than I thought it might. Where I am still irritated is the removal of incremental damage under 90 meters ON TOP of the other nerfs (heat and projectile speed are plenty), and that the Awesome is still hit with Ghost Heat, when it SHOULD be able to fire 3 PPC. Also with the heat back, Gauss Charge and such, Ghost Heat, which they spent so much time designing, is feeling less needed, which just makes the complexity and convoluted nature of that "fix" even more absurd.

The K2 should be able to REASONABLY fire 2 PPC, as it was designed to do so. And it can. Reasonably. It can't spam them nonstop, especially in conjunction with other weapons. And it can't run ER PPC without issues, but then, it was never meant to run ER PPC. My Cataphract and Orion can both Comfortably run PPCs, and while I have to be careful, so can my VTR. All need volley fire and cooldowns to even THINK about running ERs.

So, IDK bro, still got a lot of testing to do, but despite my misgivings, I am not finding the heat as big a deal as many do.

I disagree. Alot of it depends on playstyle and the builds your using. For example I used to run two Quickdraws, 1 with LLs as the primary heavy energy weapon and one with ER PPCs as the primary energy weapon. This was back when the ER PPC was 11 heat. Now obviously this changed up the mechs secondary weapons loadout and heat management ability pretty substancially.

On the LL version, for example I could keep up a fairly high sustained fire from all my primary and secondary weapons due the LLs cooler and lighter design coupled with being able to add a few more heat sinks.

The ER PPC version however had to be very selective and pretty much either fire its ER PPC or fire its secondary weapons. This is pretty much how you describe how they should work in one of your above post. Keep in mind this was with 11 heat.

Now at 15 heat, I can't even realistically use ER PPCs on the build at all as I almost instantly overheat on hot maps just trying to use them and nothing else. This is with 15 DHS buy the way so it isn't like I am mounting only a few DHS and having issues.

Now how I see it, when I was running the ER PPC at 11 heat, that was almost perfectly balanced against the LL build. I got insane range at the expense of limiting myself to only being able to use my ER PPCs, but I was still able to use them for a fair amount of time without overheating on the super hot maps. This was opposed to the LL build which allowed me to sustain fire all my weapons (LLs, MLs, SRMs) in a scrum but I lost the insane range and the instantanious hitting power of the ER PPCs. It was a good trade off and both models performed pretty much identically in K/D, Damage done, etc. Mounting PPC instead of ER PPCs split the different in heat managment but again identical K/D, Damage, etc. This was a balanced situation and it was obviously balanced.

Now going back to your example. Yes if I want to mount PPCs or ER PPC and just do nothing but snipe, then I can see how heat doesn't matter much. I mean it doesn't matter if your single tripple PPC alpha brings you to 99% heat because your just going to hide behind a rock until you cool. However, them being that hot, completely destroys the PPC and ER PPC's ability to be useful on any sort of mixed or general purpose build and that is the issue. The heat doesn't change the Sniper Meta because whether the ER PPC does 11, 13, 15 or even 20 heat, snipers will still be able to snipe with them with little or no change in their effectiveness with heat. The heat does break the PPC and ER PPC for any other uses or builds however, builds that were never considered a problem. Therefore how does "fixing" something that wasn't broken to the point it is now broken itself, without affecting the issue it was designed to "fix" actually make this game better?

Edited by Viktor Drake, 06 September 2013 - 11:23 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Viktor Drake, on 06 September 2013 - 11:22 PM, said:

I disagree. Alot of it depends on playstyle and the builds your using. For example I used to run two Quickdraws, 1 with LLs as the primary heavy energy weapon and one with ER PPCs as the primary energy weapon. This was back when the ER PPC was 11 heat. Now obviously this changed up the mechs secondary weapons loadout and heat management ability pretty substancially.

On the LL version, for example I could keep up a fairly high sustained fire from all my primary and secondary weapons due the LLs cooler and lighter design coupled with being able to add a few more heat sinks.

The ER PPC version however had to be very selective and pretty much either fire its ER PPC or fire its secondary weapons. This is pretty much how you describe how they should work in one of your above post. Keep in mind this was with 11 heat.

Now at 15 heat, I can't even realistically use ER PPCs on the build at all as I almost instantly overheat on hot maps just trying to use them and nothing else. This is with 15 DHS buy the way so it isn't like I am mounting only a few DHS and having issues.

Now how I see it, when I was running the ER PPC at 11 heat, that was almost perfectly balanced against the LL build. I got insane range at the expense of limiting myself to only being able to use my ER PPCs, but I was still able to use them for a fair amount of time without overheating on the super hot maps. This was opposed to the LL build which allowed me to sustain fire all my weapons (LLs, MLs, SRMs) in a scrum but I lost the insane range and the instantanious hitting power of the ER PPCs. It was a good trade off and both models performed pretty much identically in K/D, Damage done, etc. Mounting PPC instead of ER PPCs split the different in heat managment but again identical K/D, Damage, etc. This was a balanced situation and it was obviously balanced.

Now going back to your example. Yes if I want to mount PPCs or ER PPC and just do nothing but snipe, then I can see how heat doesn't matter much. I mean it doesn't matter if your single tripple PPC alpha brings you to 99% heat because your just going to hide behind a rock until you cool. However, them being that hot, completely destroys the PPC and ER PPC's ability to be useful on any sort of mixed or general purpose build and that is the issue. The heat doesn't change the Sniper Meta because whether the ER PPC does 11, 13, 15 or even 20 heat, snipers will still be able to snipe with them with little or no change in their effectiveness with heat. The heat does break the PPC and ER PPC for any other uses or builds however, builds that were never considered a problem. Therefore how does "fixing" something that wasn't broken to the point it is now broken itself, without affecting the issue it was designed to "fix" actually make this game better?

actually, their effectiveness as sniping weapons is greatly impacted. Before, you could generally spam with PPC and ERs. Do that now, and you will overheat. Overheat, your mech takes internal damage. Do it repeatedly, you destroy yourself. Hence, PPC sniping, while still quite viable, is much more selective, meaning you no longer have to worry about the sky being filled with ppc fire shots to the same degree.

And again, even in TT, the Marauder and Warhammer could NOT mix ER PPC and short range fire together without overheating. PPC fire was little more forgiving, but you had the minimum effective range to balance. There is a reason that other mechs, if similar weight to your Quickdraw, ran only a SINGLE ER PPC. (see Grand Dragon, Lancelot, etc). Even at 70 tons and up, those ER PPC pairs were used pretty selectively (and lighter mechs with them tend to have few if any backup weapons), and why even the THUG, at 80 tons ran standard PPCs, even with 18 DHS.

With ER PPCs, you know have a choice, hold back and snipe with them, OR close and use your short range armament. My Orion runs 2 PPCs fine, and when things get close, I do switch to my ASRM6 racks and other weapons, with only an occasional shot from the PPCs, if the situation merits it.

You are correct in playstyle.... the current Meta dictates playstyles withlower total alpha/burst damage, overall, and more varied, staggered fire. (Though it also has exposed the current broke state of UACs when boated) So people once again are having to be selective in their fire choices to be effective. The question is, are people going to cling to the pieces of broken meta that favored their play styles (while vilifying ones they didn't use/like), or embrace a chance for much more balanced meta. Weapons are becoming much more distinct in their roles. IMO, this is a good thing, and with just a few minor tweaks, I think PGI might finally be getting there.

But if one is going to insist that a weapon is only viable if one can use it at will, I can't answer that, because IMO, the premise of that argument is flawed to begin with.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 September 2013 - 04:42 PM, said:

actually, their effectiveness as sniping weapons is greatly impacted. Before, you could generally spam with PPC and ERs. Do that now, and you will overheat. Overheat, your mech takes internal damage. Do it repeatedly, you destroy yourself. Hence, PPC sniping, while still quite viable, is much more selective, meaning you no longer have to worry about the sky being filled with ppc fire shots to the same degree.

And again, even in TT, the Marauder and Warhammer could NOT mix ER PPC and short range fire together without overheating. PPC fire was little more forgiving, but you had the minimum effective range to balance. There is a reason that other mechs, if similar weight to your Quickdraw, ran only a SINGLE ER PPC. (see Grand Dragon, Lancelot, etc). Even at 70 tons and up, those ER PPC pairs were used pretty selectively (and lighter mechs with them tend to have few if any backup weapons), and why even the THUG, at 80 tons ran standard PPCs, even with 18 DHS.

With ER PPCs, you know have a choice, hold back and snipe with them, OR close and use your short range armament. My Orion runs 2 PPCs fine, and when things get close, I do switch to my ASRM6 racks and other weapons, with only an occasional shot from the PPCs, if the situation merits it.

You are correct in playstyle.... the current Meta dictates playstyles withlower total alpha/burst damage, overall, and more varied, staggered fire. (Though it also has exposed the current broke state of UACs when boated) So people once again are having to be selective in their fire choices to be effective. The question is, are people going to cling to the pieces of broken meta that favored their play styles (while vilifying ones they didn't use/like), or embrace a chance for much more balanced meta. Weapons are becoming much more distinct in their roles. IMO, this is a good thing, and with just a few minor tweaks, I think PGI might finally be getting there.

But if one is going to insist that a weapon is only viable if one can use it at will, I can't answer that, because IMO, the premise of that argument is flawed to begin with.

Well I guess we are just going to disagree on this one as I obviously have a different interpretation of how the PPC and ER PPC are suppose to be used and how this related to lore.

I am also going to have to disagree just from the perspective of a fun and enjoyable game. We have too few weapons to balance them to only be useable in very select circumstances. If we had a dozen or more heavy energy weapons giving us 3-4 options to fit a given role, then yes we can have one or two that are only good at sniping or one or two only good a brawling. However we only have 5 choices so there has to be some overlap of role or else your stuck with very generic builds and with little or no ability to create multirole or general purpose mech builds.

[Bishop Steiner]

Actually, I find the current meta makes multi-role mechs very viable. Before boating meant that to truly excel, one had to hyper specialize.

General Purpose/ Multi-role mechs are designed to be able to respond at all ranges.... not to be able to use all weapons at once, and definitely not to simply amp up damage curve as you close by being able to fire all at once.

A Mech now can reasonably expect to survive a little longer (again, unless encountering that pesky UAC Ilya!) and mix and match weapons. Almost all of my builds are multi-role. I think if you step back, you wiill see that while your ability to use ER PPCs with abandon has been curtailed, it is hardly removed.

And situational weapons should be situational whether one has 1 choice per situation, or role, or 10. IMO, we have more than enough weapons to cover that, and enough ability in most chassis to mix and match them to suit our tastes.... unless those tastes run toward rampant boating (hex stalkers) or just wanting to alpha with abandon. I have certainly had to adapt some of my mechs to new builds with the changes. And yet, while my damage has dipped with some builds, I have also found my battlefield endurance and longevity to be largely improved because I am facing less pinpoint alphas, also.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 September 2013 - 07:44 PM, said:

Actually, I find the current meta makes multi-role mechs very viable. Before boating meant that to truly excel, one had to hyper specialize.

General Purpose/ Multi-role mechs are designed to be able to respond at all ranges.... not to be able to use all weapons at once, and definitely not to simply amp up damage curve as you close by being able to fire all at once.

A Mech now can reasonably expect to survive a little longer (again, unless encountering that pesky UAC Ilya!) and mix and match weapons. Almost all of my builds are multi-role. I think if you step back, you wiill see that while your ability to use ER PPCs with abandon has been curtailed, it is hardly removed.

And situational weapons should be situational whether one has 1 choice per situation, or role, or 10. IMO, we have more than enough weapons to cover that, and enough ability in most chassis to mix and match them to suit our tastes.... unless those tastes run toward rampant boating (hex stalkers) or just wanting to alpha with abandon. I have certainly had to adapt some of my mechs to new builds with the changes. And yet, while my damage has dipped with some builds, I have also found my battlefield endurance and longevity to be largely improved because I am facing less pinpoint alphas, also.

Well I never could use ER PPCs with abandon even when they were at 11 heat which is probably why I find that 15 heat makes them unusable.

Also the reason I feel we have reduced options is that in every case where I used to mount PPCs or ER PPCs, the LL is now hands down a better choice so now every mech I own mounts LLs. Where before I had builds that mixed in PPCs or ER PPCs for variety and a change of pace, now all my mechs have a generic feel to them that makes owning different variants kind of feel very redundant especially if I am forced to use only a very few weapon types to accomidate my playstyle.

I guess that it the big issue for me. Once they "fixed" the heat and got it down to reasonable levels on the PPC and ER PPC, I never really felt constrained in my weapons choices. I could pretty much interchangably use a PPC in place of a Large Laser at any point and not feel I was giving up sustainability, dps or performance. Now with all the changes, I find myself using only LLs, UAC/5s, LB-10Xs, SRM4/SRM6 and MLs. Sure I have one or two mechs that use LRMs and even one using LPLs but other than that I have zero diversity going on in my builds and don't feel I really have options with the current PPC/ER PPC heat nerf, Steak Nerf, Gauss Nerf etc. The game is just not alot of fun when every mech is using the same weapons and I don't enjoy playing substandard builds just for the challenge.

[-Muta-]

The problem was not your raven. It was people boating ER/PPCs making matches way too boring