131 replies to this topic

[The Boz]

Bhael Fire, on 08 September 2013 - 01:11 AM, said:

WTF does that have to do with the current ECM implementation?

You are hilarious in your inability to follow a conversation you yourself started.

[Sheraf]

ABFalcon, on 07 September 2013 - 08:39 PM, said:

ECM should not disrupt missile lock, only target lock.

If I have a direct line of sight to you, I should be able to shoot you with any weapon in my arsenal. You don't deserve to stop me from doing that. Missiles should be no exception.

If I sit back in a corner and vomit LRM's at people from behind cover, do I deserve to apply damage to other players who cannot retaliate against me? Absolutely not! In fact, it's questionable if we deserve to apply damage at all on the flimsy basis that 'other people are spotting'.

LRM's aren't OP, spotting is OP, and ECM is our chance to stop it, in an interesting, gameplay-related way.

ECM isn't balanced until it can be 1: equipped on every mech and 2: is not disproportionately used.

Case and point of ECM imbalance: Let's see some anonymized server data, of how many mechs with an ECM slot mount ECM. I dare the devs to release that data.

That what it should be. ECM is still doing too much for a 1.5 ton equipment. If they want it to have alot of functions, add seperate modules, each cost 1.5 ton to add on your mech.

For example ECM should just do oppsite of what BAP does, increase lock time, reduce detection range by a bit. If I needs to prevent it's paperdoll from being read quickly, that is another 1.5 ton module. If I want to jam enemy radar at 180m, that is another module to put in.

Edited by Sheraf, 08 September 2013 - 07:02 AM.

[OpCentar]

ECM has been constantly nerfed since introduction but it's still not "quite there yet".

Since it completely blocks all missile locks it should deny the user from obtaining lock for their own guided missiles as well. Then there would be equilibrium in the light mech class.

Also less of those LRM spamming D-DCs which camp behind the front while the rest of the team dies on it.

[Navy Sixes]

Foxfire, on 07 September 2013 - 06:33 AM, said:

Don't forget that ECM also counters ECM.. The problem isn't ECM...

No, the problem is that only a handful of mechs have the option to field it, and if you don't want to run one of those mechs (and no one else on your side in the PUG wanted to, either) you're SOL. BAP is not a strong enough counter.

[DocBach]

Something I've noticed with the PPC / gauss changes is that the ECM blob has come back in popularity pretty hard.

[Deathlike]

DocBach, on 08 September 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

Something I've noticed with the PPC / gauss changes is that the ECM blob has come back in popularity pretty hard.

You might be mistaking that for the Trial RVN-3Ls that have it solely has it stock.

Edited by Deathlike, 08 September 2013 - 10:07 AM.

[DocBach]

Nah, big surge in Atlas ECM blobs in the games I've gotten to play

[PostalPatriot]

How many Spiders in running in Counter mode does it take to negate all 6 of their ecms?

[Navy Sixes]

Khobai, on 06 September 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

ECM doesnt render an entire class of weapons useless. I still see LRMs used effectively every game.

Khobai, on 06 September 2013 - 06:06 PM, said:

And LRMs arnt as effective as direct fire weapons even without ECM so its not a big deal.

?

Beyond its apparent contradiction with your earlier statement, your argument really doesn't seem to hold up. If LRMs "arnt [sic] as effective as direct fire weapons," they are even worse as indirect-fire weapons. That's why LRM-drivers devote ton-and-Cbill to Artemis IV guidance systems that focus the missile spread with direct LOS. That's why every "advice for new LRM-pilots" thread councils aggressive tactics and seeking close-range direct LOS locks. That's why experienced LRM-drivers work their way in 3-400m from their targets and "eyeball" their salvos home.

So, if LRMs aren't as effective as direct-fire weapons, and are still worse as indirect-fire weapons, why should it be OK to allow ECM to render them even more useless without a balancing counter? All I'm saying is that if PGI is going to allow ECM into the game, it should be available to a wider range of mechs. Effective countermeasures should be available to everyone. Yes, Khobai, even LRM-drivers.

[Khobai]

Quote

Beyond its apparent contradiction with your earlier statement, your argument really doesn't seem to hold up. If LRMs "arnt [sic] as effective as direct fire weapons," they are even worse as indirect-fire weapons.

Theres no contradiction. First statement was that lrms could be used effectively. Second statement was that lrms arnt as effective as direct fire weapons. And its true, LRMs can still be used effectively, despite not being as effective as other weapons. You are really grasping at straws.

Quote

So, if LRMs aren't as effective as direct-fire weapons, and are still worse as indirect-fire weapons, why should it be OK to allow ECM to render them even more useless without a balancing counter?

Its not okay. If you read my first post I said it needed to be fixed. Electronic warfare and LRMs need a complete balance pass at some point in the future. But its neither important, nor urgent. It needs to wait until more pressing balance issues are fixed/resolved, namely broke-as-**** UAC/5s.

Edited by Khobai, 08 September 2013 - 11:01 AM.

[Taemien]

At what point does a feature become a problem instead of an obstacle to overcome? Obviously we can't rely on outcry from the community. They complain about something as stupid as machine guns. They'll literally complain about anything. Right now we've got people who think Teamspeak and 3rd party VOIP should be disallowed.

With that being said, I think ECM is just a feature and an obstacle to overcome as if someone were firing lasers at me. Am I wrong? Am I playing this game in such a wrong way that ECM isn't the make or break reason for a win or a loss? The fact is, when I encounter ECM, I take measures to counter it or mitigate its effectiveness against me. The fact that I am continously able to do this leads me to believe that it is a simple obstacle.

Should we remove the buildings in Frozen City just because someone doesn't like them? Or thinks it would be move fun to run a straight line in the map? When does ECM become different then those buildings? They've been hard countering missile strikes since close beta. At least with TAG I can nullify the effects of it on my Catapult. TAG doesn't phase out a building. And again because of those buildings, your forced to zig zag your way through them to reach an opponent, I'm sure for some players out there that isn't fun (it is for me though lol).

The point is. I think the majority of players simply wish to on a subconscious level, stand on opposite sides of a map and shoot at each other like its the Civil War. Anything that contradicts that or makes them go outside their comfort zone has a psychological effect of making them uneasy and uncomfortable.

Or their boating weapons that are getting countered. Imagine that. If you boat, you have a gimped build. Thats what happens. You get countered, easily. Mix up your weapons and this won't happen. Boat builds suck, period.

[Deathlike]

DocBach, on 08 September 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

Nah, big surge in Atlas ECM blobs in the games I've gotten to play

That has more to do with AssaultWarrior, where you see less than 4 med+lights combined being fielded.

Edited by Deathlike, 08 September 2013 - 11:20 AM.

[Steel Claws]

Taemien, on 08 September 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

At what point does a feature become a problem instead of an obstacle to overcome? Obviously we can't rely on outcry from the community. They complain about something as stupid as machine guns. They'll literally complain about anything. Right now we've got people who think Teamspeak and 3rd party VOIP should be disallowed.

With that being said, I think ECM is just a feature and an obstacle to overcome as if someone were firing lasers at me. Am I wrong? Am I playing this game in such a wrong way that ECM isn't the make or break reason for a win or a loss? The fact is, when I encounter ECM, I take measures to counter it or mitigate its effectiveness against me. The fact that I am continously able to do this leads me to believe that it is a simple obstacle.

Should we remove the buildings in Frozen City just because someone doesn't like them? Or thinks it would be move fun to run a straight line in the map? When does ECM become different then those buildings? They've been hard countering missile strikes since close beta. At least with TAG I can nullify the effects of it on my Catapult. TAG doesn't phase out a building. And again because of those buildings, your forced to zig zag your way through them to reach an opponent, I'm sure for some players out there that isn't fun (it is for me though lol).

The point is. I think the majority of players simply wish to on a subconscious level, stand on opposite sides of a map and shoot at each other like its the Civil War. Anything that contradicts that or makes them go outside their comfort zone has a psychological effect of making them uneasy and uncomfortable.

Or their boating weapons that are getting countered. Imagine that. If you boat, you have a gimped build. Thats what happens. You get countered, easily. Mix up your weapons and this won't happen. Boat builds suck, period.

Your not wrong. The problem is that the vocal ones want easy mode and anything that interferes with that is OP. Further they aren't willing to spend the time or effort to learn how to defeat what ever it is or even use the tools that will help them out. It's easier to run to the forum and complain loudly. You can't reason with them because they refuse to see the truth even if you dangle it in front of their eyes.

BTW the reason for the "Blobs" isnt so much "hey he has ECM lets huddle" as that there is strength in numbers. Strays get punished. Combined with 12 people trying to force through lanes 2 mechs wide and you get "blob".

Edited by Steel Claws, 08 September 2013 - 11:29 AM.

[The Boz]

Steel Claws, on 08 September 2013 - 11:25 AM, said:

Further they aren't willing to spend the time or effort to learn how to defeat what ever it is or even use the tools that will help them out. It's easier to run to the forum and complain loudly. You can't reason with them because they refuse to see the truth even if you dangle it in front of their eyes.

Stay classy.

[KharnZor]

The Boz, on 07 September 2013 - 10:30 AM, said:

Ugh, why do we even bother responding to these arguments if these are the replies we get?
"Something is only OP if it gives you 100% win chance. No, I do not understand statistics, why do you ask?"

I'm sorry if you don't like it but my AC20 does indeed render many an ECM useless. Best counter to ecm is to kill whats carrying it as fast as possible.

[Navy Sixes]

Taemien, on 08 September 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

At what point does a feature become a problem instead of an obstacle to overcome?

I think ECM is just a feature and an obstacle to overcome as if someone were firing lasers at me. Am I wrong?

I think the majority of players simply wish to on a subconscious level, stand on opposite sides of a map and shoot at each other like its the Civil War. Anything that contradicts that or makes them go outside their comfort zone has a psychological effect of making them uneasy and uncomfortable.

You are wrong. Say I'm driving a C-4 with LRM40, BAP, and 2xMP lasers. I see a blob trudging through wide open terrain under an Atlas' ECM umbrella 400m away. I'm looking at them, but I can't shoot them. I could TAG, but I don't fit TAG because I have 2 energy slots in my CT, and I don't want to be a boat and need weapons to counter the lights that will come swarming once I start firing. If I fitted a large laser, a PPC, or any medium/long range ballistic I could fire... oh, wait; I can't fit any of those weapons. What's my solution? Should I run out into the middle of them, drop a UV, run back, and open fire? Should I tell my teammates where they are, power down, and watch the light show? I suppose I could just run out there and kill them all with my 2mp lasers...

As my above posts clearly state, I (and no other experienced LRM-driver) has any problem getting in reasonably (sometimes not-so-reasonably ) close with the enemy. That said, I didn't build a Splat-Cat; I am not a brawler. I shouldn't have to play like one because the other team is skillfully (LOL) stomping around in the biggest mech available that also happens to be invulnerable to LRMs. No other weapon system in the game has more disadvantages that LRMs, chief among them a hard-counter like ECM that makes them useless, even when you're LOS on a slow-moving target in the wide-open, well within your effective range.

Steel Claws, on 08 September 2013 - 11:25 AM, said:

You can't reason with them because they refuse to see the truth even if you dangle it in front of their eyes.

Man, I couldn't agree more. We're talking about the "crutch" players who don't bother to learn the sensor/lock-defeating tactics everyone else has to use just because they have ECM, right?

L2P goes both ways.

[Zolaz]

The problem with ECM is that you and other bad pilots never put a BAP into their mech. Lose a ton and a half from your engine. If you are already waddling around the battlefield then remove some weapons till you are down to at least 1.4 heat efficiency. If that still doesnt help you remove some of that ammo you are carrying.

Every mech should be carrying a BAP and AMS. This is especially true if you are PUGging it.

[Steel Claws]

Tycho von Gagern, on 08 September 2013 - 12:24 PM, said:

You are wrong. Say I'm driving a C-4 with LRM40, BAP, and 2xMP lasers. I see a blob trudging through wide open terrain under an Atlas' ECM umbrella 400m away. I'm looking at them, but I can't shoot them. I could TAG, but I don't fit TAG because I have 2 energy slots in my CT, and I don't want to be a boat and need weapons to counter the lights that will come swarming once I start firing. If I fitted a large laser, a PPC, or any medium/long range ballistic I could fire... oh, wait;

You actually could mount the large laser but there is no point. A C4 is a sitting duck once the enemy close and 2 MPL might make you feel better but thats about all. AS for those lights, again the MPL isn't going to help much. C4s are bread and butter for light pilots, especially if they are alone. The problem with your thinking is that you value the lasers over the tag. Your main weapons are the LRMs - once you start having to use the lasers it's game over anyway. Try this instead:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e049806350d4bc5

You then have bap and 2 SSRM 2s and a medium laser for the light mechs - and yes you can shoot the SSRMs as long as you dont have 2 ECM mechs on you. If you prefer you can take off the SSRM2s and 1 ton of LRM ammo and install 2 SRM 4s instead. If you want a JJ you can drop a ton of ammo but there isnt much need since you are going to be wanting to keep a low profile anyway. The importance of tag cannot be over stated for a LRM using mech. Then for modules you load Advanced Target decay, Advanced sensor range, and a Advanced UAV.

That said I dont use tag on my LRM using Highlander because I back the LRMs (1 LRM 20 and 2 LRM 10) with 2 PPCs - which cancels ECM for a few seconds. I can still usually do 450+ damage and get a few kills with it each drop - despite how "ECM shuts everytrhing down". If ECM bothers you, take the stuff that cancels it out.

Edited by Steel Claws, 08 September 2013 - 02:00 PM.

[Wolfways]

Zolaz, on 08 September 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:

The problem with ECM is that you and other bad pilots never put a BAP into their mech. Lose a ton and a half from your engine. If you are already waddling around the battlefield then remove some weapons till you are down to at least 1.4 heat efficiency. If that still doesnt help you remove some of that ammo you are carrying.

Every mech should be carrying a BAP and AMS. This is especially true if you are PUGging it.

How exactly does a BAP help a Catapult when he has to get within 150m to affect ECM?

[Sheraf]

Steel Claws, on 08 September 2013 - 11:25 AM, said:

Your not wrong. The problem is that the vocal ones want easy mode and anything that interferes with that is OP. Further they aren't willing to spend the time or effort to learn how to defeat what ever it is or even use the tools that will help them out. It's easier to run to the forum and complain loudly. You can't reason with them because they refuse to see the truth even if you dangle it in front of their eyes.

BTW the reason for the "Blobs" isnt so much "hey he has ECM lets huddle" as that there is strength in numbers. Strays get punished. Combined with 12 people trying to force through lanes 2 mechs wide and you get "blob".

If you remove ECM, doesn't it makes the game harder for everyone? But that is more fun.