131 replies to this topic

[nehebkau]

Let me start off by saying I love my Raven with its little ECM module. I really love it when I have annother ECM unit running with me, or 3 or 4 extra ECM units. Why? Because I know that I won't have to fear any SSRM or LRM when I am zipping around the enemy. I know that I have my little invisi-shield and most of the other players don't. I know that I am fast enough to make sure that silly TAG dosn't stick on me for more than a mili-second. I know that those enemy BAP units are now useless weight -- yes life is good.


What I have been seeing, now, from organized teams (pre-made groups), are swarms of players running several ECM units in a swarm with greater frequency. (several 3Ms, 3Ls and 5Ds ect. running together) I recognize this an ongoing and growing problem to the game. Why? As you know, 2 or more ECMs working together basically eliminate an entire weapon class from the game -- targeted rockets. SSRMs and LRMs become useless when you have this multi-swarm of ECM units. It would be similar to a ballistics shield that would stop all AC frire from hitting your companions, or, stopping all laser fire. (I know this is being overly dramatic -- forgive me i am trying to make a point) Imagine if equiping a BCM would prevent any ballistics fire from hitting you or or companions unless they were lit-up by a tag or you had a BAP. Imagine if 2 of those BCMs would render your BAP useless -- guess what ballistics immunity ( yaay!) You can see where i am going with this silly exaggeration.


The problem I see with ECM is that it is all benefit with absolutely no drawbacks. If you have an ECM capible mech, then you always equip the ECM -- what does that tell you?

I think that it is time to change ECM so it becomes a TEAM weapon rather than an INDIVIDUAL weapon. (yes it is a weapon -- and electronic warfare weapon). I ask that the Developers change the ECM so that the unit that has the ECM equiped and is using the ECM suffer all the negative effects of the ECM it is using. By this i mean:

My ECM in disrupt mode, provides the missle and lock cover to my team-mates as it normally does. My ECM stops me from communicating with my team-mates and stops me from being able to lock onto enemies. The effect of putting out such a strong interference pattern is that my ECM unit can still be targeted (at close range) regardless of other ECMs around me. An ECM in counter mode works normally.

I expect that you will see more of these ECM swarms popping up once people realize how effective 2 or 3 or 4 ECMs working together are. FSM help the PUGs when this picks up and FSM help the forum monitors when the rage posts start to fly. And before you go on on this "we've said this before" rant -- remember things usually only change when you sound like a broken record and people get tired enough of hearing it that they get off their {JW Bush} and fix it.

Edited by nehebkau, 06 September 2013 - 12:10 PM.

[Khobai]

ECM is fine for now. Although at some point in the future, the devs need to do an electronic warfare balance pass on the game, but they should hold off on that until other key elements like passive sensors and null signature system are added. But until then theres more important things that need to be worked on.

[Navy Sixes]

The biggest flaw with the way ECM has been implemented is that the units that get skrewd (LRM-platforms like the Treb/Stalker/Cat/Awesome/Kint... etc.) by ECM are unable to field ECM themselves. When I run my Cat wLRM30, bet your bottom dollar I'd field ECM if I could, but I can't. So if you're in the PUG, as I am, you have to hope someone else NOT AN ATLAS brought some and will ride with you... fat chance.

I say either make it a module available to all mechs for cbills and gxp, make it a piece of expensive equipment that takes up slots/tonnage (also available to anyone who wants it) or just get rid of it all together.

Or buff BAP so it will burn through enemy ECM out to at least 500m.

Edited by Tycho von Gagern, 06 September 2013 - 12:33 PM.

[Navy Sixes]

Khobai, on 06 September 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:

ECM is fine for now. Although at some point in the future, the devs need to do an electronic warfare balance pass on the game, but they should hold off on that until other key elements like passive sensors and null signature system are added. But until then theres more important things that need to be worked on.

So what you're saying is, "PGI shouldn't balance the op system that render an entire class of weapons useless until its introduced other op systems that render those weapons useless." Is that right?

[nehebkau]

Khobai, on 06 September 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:

ECM is fine for now. Although at some point in the future, the devs need to do an electronic warfare balance pass on the game, but they should hold off on that until other key elements like passive sensors and null signature system are added. But until then theres more important things that need to be worked on.

So, your logic is : Hold off on a small fix, because a bigger fixes need to be done? With that logic, nothing will get done -- ever. Have you ever been exposed to the development philosophy of 'harvest the low-hanging fruit first"?

[blood4blood]

PUG's are already bringing lots of ECM. I agree ECM can be OP when stacked, but there are plenty of counters - seismic, BAP, TAG, playing bait to move a non-ECM mech out of ECM cover, and the canon lore version: Eyeballs MkI with direct fire weapons.

EDIT: I forgot using PPC's as EMP to temporarily nullify ECM. I love showing PUG teammates where the D-DC's are hiding.

Edited by blood4blood, 06 September 2013 - 12:45 PM.

[Zypher]

The ECM problem never really went away, people were just distracted by other features / issues, granted it was worse at one time.

My experience was I never played with ECM, I didn't feel it was necessary with my game play experience. After the changes to ECM I decided to grind out my Atlas, of course using the DDC last. I was even ridiculed by other teammates for not bringing ECM in my DDC. Eventually I tried it, all I can say is wow, easy mode in relation to missiles, it's damn stupid in it's current form, occasionally I get someone trying to use TAG on me, but it's pretty easy to see that coming and move out of the way.

I played 1000+ games without ECM, using it now I don't even remember LRMs are in the game half the time. A 2 ton piece of equipment shouldn't enable me to forget about something so imposing. I don't use LRM boats either, but the mechanic of ECM and missile lock is OP.

Edited by Zypher, 06 September 2013 - 12:40 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

So what you're saying is, "PGI shouldn't balance the op system that render an entire class of weapons useless until its introduced other op systems that render those weapons useless." Is that right?

ECM doesnt render an entire class of weapons useless. I still see LRMs used effectively every game. And Im able to consistently use TAG to counter ECM. Additionally BAP completely counters ECM up close.

Quote

So, your logic is : Hold off on a small fix, because a bigger fixes need to be done? With that logic, nothing will get done -- ever. Have you ever been exposed to the development philosophy of 'harvest the low-hanging fruit first"?

Nope thats not my logic. Because I never said balancing electronic warfare was a small fix. You said that. Electronic warfare actually gets quite complicated when you have ecm, bap, active/passive sensors, sensor modules, null signature system, stealth armor, all interacting with eachother. It's a lot of work, but is low priority compared to UI2.0, CW, Clans, etc...

Edited by Khobai, 06 September 2013 - 12:46 PM.

[nehebkau]

Khobai, on 06 September 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

ECM doesnt render an entire class of weapons useless. I still see LRMs used effectively every game. And Im able to consistently use TAG to counter ECM. Additionally BAP completely counters ECM up close.

2 ECMs render your BAP useless. Thats part of the point I'm making.

Edited by nehebkau, 06 September 2013 - 12:52 PM.

[Andross Deverow]

UAV counters ecm also... ECM is fine where it is.

Regards

[Asakara]

nehebkau, on 06 September 2013 - 12:06 PM, said:

...

The problem I see with ECM is that it is all benefit with absolutely no drawbacks. If you have an ECM capible mech, then you always equip the ECM -- what does that tell you?

...

If you have a non-ECM capable mech and want to use streaks or be able to use LRMs when ECM mechs are around you then you should always equip the BAP.

ECM = 2 crits + 1.5 tons.
BAP = 2 crits + 1.5 tons.

[Khobai]

Quote

2 ECMs render your BAP useless. Thats part of the point I'm making.

2 mechs always counter 1 mech regardless of ECM or BAP.

Half of winning MWO is not playing fair, dont fight where the enemy has a 2v1 advantage, fight where your team has a 3v2 advantage.

[Zypher]

Khobai, on 06 September 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

ECM doesnt render an entire class of weapons useless. I still see LRMs used effectively every game. And Im able to consistently use TAG to counter ECM. Additionally BAP completely counters ECM up close.

I never said they were useless, in my experience and with the level of players I play with, when playing as an assault, I rarely have to worry about my lack of mobility in regards to incoming LRM fire.

Useless implies no use or lack of any use. There are rare occasions where someone will lock and maybe hit me we a few missiles, but the passive effect of of equipping a 2 ton piece of equipment is more of a no brainer advantage than the work one has to perform to him me with missiles. Go ahead with your bap and tag, I still have more of an advantage overall with ECM than your two pieces of equipment, god forbid you actually had to pile on some LRMs that I don't even need ECM to get past.

My opinion still stands, ECM is probably still the single most OP piece of equipment in the game.

[Sir Ratburger]

Still don't know why the BAP doesn't eliminate the ECM's crazily long lock on times.

Personally I just run around with the thing on jamming mode if I see the 'low signal' sign pop up, helps my teammates... otherwise in my Cicida I would of had my butt handed to me a long time ago if I did not have an ECM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Go ahead with your bap and tag, I still have more of an advantage overall with ECM than your two pieces of equipment, god forbid you actually had to pile on some LRMs that I don't even need ECM to get past.

Part of running LRMs is picking good targets. Do you target the agile, ECM-equipped mech that can easily dodge missiles? Or do you target the slow Stalker, that's easy to TAG, and cant dodge missiles at all?

[Homeless Bill]

nehebkau, on 06 September 2013 - 12:06 PM, said:

Quickly

Haha. You must be new here.

[nehebkau]

Khobai, on 06 September 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

2 mechs always counter 1 mech regardless of ECM or BAP.

Half of winning MWO is not playing fair, dont fight where the enemy has a 2v1 advantage, fight where your team has a 3v2 advantage.

Which is part of the point I am making again. You send out an ECM, then I send and ECM then you have 2 so I have to have 2 so you get 3 and I get 3....so eventually you have 12 ECM units and I have 12 ECM units and everything is great....except we have PUGs (Paying User Groups hehe) that fall into the mix. So, should we end up with only ECM-able mechs on the battlefield?

And with BAP it isn't that your 1 ECM counters my 1 BAP or your 2 ECMs counter my 1 BAP. Its that your 2 ECMs counter my teams 12 BAPs. I take it you like running your ECM group?

[Navy Sixes]

Message found in a bottle that drifted all the way from ECM-DNozzle Island:

Caervyn, on 06 September 2013 - 01:00 PM, said:

A) Don't PUG. This game is meant to be played with a lance. If you're having an issue with this, please see the recruitment thread.
Be aware that ECM is your HARD COUNTER (as a lrm-tard or streakapult/streaktaro) as BAP is ECM's hard counter.
C) Don't get stranded alone where you can be shrouded by enemy ECM.
D) Play Smart. Have a backup. Don't field ONE type of weapon that can be countered. Awesome 8R w/ LRM60 + LL, for example.
E) Quit crying, get in game, get practice, and kill the little light ******** (me) before they core out your ******** and laugh while you cry in chat.

o7

[Andross Deverow]

nehebkau, on 06 September 2013 - 01:06 PM, said:

Which is part of the point I am making again. You send out an ECM, then I send and ECM then you have 2 so I have to have 2 so you get 3 and I get 3....so eventually you have 12 ECM units and I have 12 ECM units and everything is great....except we have PUGs (Paying User Groups hehe) that fall into the mix. So, should we end up with only ECM-able mechs on the battlefield?

And with BAP it isn't that your 1 ECM counters my 1 BAP or your 2 ECMs counter my 1 BAP. Its that your 2 ECMs counter my teams 12 BAPs. I take it you like running your ECM group?

Im tellin ya. Have someone else or you use a UAV module... Works great to see the enemy blob under the ecm bubble. Then its free for all lrm rains..

Regards

[nehebkau]

Caervyn, on 06 September 2013 - 01:00 PM, said:

A) Don't PUG. This game is meant to be played with a lance. If you're having an issue with this, please see the recruitment thread.
Be aware that ECM is your HARD COUNTER (as a lrm-tard or streakapult/streaktaro) as BAP is ECM's hard counter.
C) Don't get stranded alone where you can be shrouded by enemy ECM.
D) Play Smart. Have a backup. Don't field ONE type of weapon that can be countered. Awesome 8R w/ LRM60 + LL, for example.
E) Quit crying, get in game, get practice, and kill the little light ******** (me) before they core out your ******** and laugh while you cry in chat.

o7

POINT E: I play a light-- usually a jenner (sometimes a raven). With many 500, 600 and 700 games so your point E is kinda stupid. I'd place me in my jenner against you in any mech you choose any day. And I must confess your juvinile response only serves to make you look like an {JW Bush}. Get Skilz -- nice answer Einstein.

POINT D: Yes, I could have figured you for someone who only plays assaults. Driving a lite, my choices of weapon loadouts is limited as are the choices of many others who drive mediums and some heavies -- not to mention new players. When (if) drop limits come in what are you going to do?

POINT C: When I drive my raven, I choose who my ECM shrouds, not the othe way-round.

POINT B: 2 ECMs counters all BAPs, not just 1 BAP.

POINT A: What the hell?? Are you thick? That statment is just, well, so stupid I don't know what to say. If you seriously believe that, PGI should ignore everything you say because you haven't a clue about the social aspects of online gaming nor how F2P/Micro-transaction games grow and flourish. That attitude is typical of the major troubles with some of the fans of this game.