131 replies to this topic

[Vodrin Thales]

Tycho von Gagern, on 06 September 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

The biggest flaw with the way ECM has been implemented is that the units that get skrewd (LRM-platforms like the Treb/Stalker/Cat/Awesome/Kint... etc.) by ECM are unable to field ECM themselves. When I run my Cat wLRM30, bet your bottom dollar I'd field ECM if I could, but I can't. So if you're in the PUG, as I am, you have to hope someone else NOT AN ATLAS brought some and will ride with you... fat chance.

I say either make it a module available to all mechs for cbills and gxp, make it a piece of expensive equipment that takes up slots/tonnage (also available to anyone who wants it) or just get rid of it all together.

Or buff BAP so it will burn through enemy ECM out to at least 500m.

Why would you ever run ECM on a LRM catapult? It provides no protection from any decent enemy LRM player (as you will be tagged if he considers you a decent target), and you should never be close enough to an enemy LRM mech to potentially help shut him down. Just run BAP and be done with it.

[Khobai]

Quote

POINT B: 2 ECMs counters all BAPs, not just 1 BAP.

Thats not true.

ECM can be in disrupt or counter mode. In disrupt mode, ECM is countered by BAP. In counter mode, ECM has no effect on BAP at all.

BAP is always in counter mode and will counter one ECM in disrupt mode. Two BAPs will counter two ECMs in disrupt mode.

[Doomstryke]

Also understand that not everyone needs to run streaks. Your 2 ecm counter to one guy using ecm and the other isn't if you went 2 on 2. Most likely the second mech isn't relying on streaks or he would also be running bap which means mech #2 isn't at a disadvantage only mech #1 is and mech number 1 deserves the penalty if he's using streaks only. Once a mech dies balance is restored or they both die. I see no issues here. IMO streaks should be removed or at the very least how much give you have on the lock should be cut down significantly.

Ether way ECM is perfectly fine right now. Its good for hiding when scouting and not an issue once brawl starts. seems good to me

Oh and this. ECM and BAP are both 1-1 counters

Khobai, on 06 September 2013 - 01:28 PM, said:

Thats not true.

ECM can be in disrupt or counter mode. In disrupt mode, ECM is countered by BAP. In counter mode, ECM has no effect on BAP at all.

BAP is always in counter mode and will counter one ECM in disrupt mode. Two BAPs will counter two ECMs in disrupt mode.

Edited by Doomstryke, 06 September 2013 - 01:31 PM.

[focuspark]

easiest fix PGI could do is make affected by ECM a boolean and not stackable.

[Drasari]

ECM is far to powerful. It needs a limit on the number of mechs it can hide plus a range reduction. Only 5 mechs can mount ECM out of the 85 and yet I see 3-4+ per team in most games.

As far as bap goes, and UAV; they should not be required for your loadout. As it stands right now, they are.

As well if you can mount ECM and don't you are gimping yourself.

[Steel Claws]

I have never understood why people think ECM is OP. It does NOTHING to stop mechs from being killed with direct fire weapons and SRMs. If you are reliant completely on LRMs and SSRMs - you are just being foolish. Missiles are hardly hurting for use and are quite effective especially when used with tag. It also doesnt render mechs invisible. Use the eyes. It's not even a must have on a mech or team.

Even massed ECM has very little effect on the game unless you are an LRM/SSRM boat and see note above if you are. The only people complaining are the ones that want to hide at the back of the map all day and shoot LRMs at their betters from behind cover rather than running more balanced builds that don't rely completely on missiles.

I really wish people would quit complaining about things that are fine and stop bothering the devs with stuff that is insignificant so they can get to the more important business of bringing out community warfare rather than farting around with stuff that the majority of people think is fine.

Edited by Steel Claws, 06 September 2013 - 02:37 PM.

[The Boz]

Steel Claws, on 06 September 2013 - 02:29 PM, said:

I have never understood why people think ECM is OP. It does NOTHING to stop mechs from being killed with direct dire weapons and SRMs. If you are reliant completely on LRMs and SSRMs - you are just being foolish.

This logic, man... Or rather, lack there of. So, tell me, if the game were to suddenly feature shields which rendered a mech immune to energy weaponry, would you find that fine as well? What about ballistics?
ECM needs a change. A hardcore change. The current implementation is way too binary.

[Corvus Antaka]

might help if TAG had a 1000-1250m range and if NARC completely broke ECM on the mech it was attached to regardless of that mechs ecm status.

[Steel Claws]

The Boz, on 06 September 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

This logic, man... Or rather, lack there of. So, tell me, if the game were to suddenly feature shields which rendered a mech immune to energy weaponry, would you find that fine as well? What about ballistics?
ECM needs a change. A hardcore change. The current implementation is way too binary.

The logic is that ECM is the counter to LRMs which can be shot with no line of sight - from cover - at ranges from 180 - 1000 meters. That is it's purpose in life - it does nothing else for you. You and several others want to give it no purpose and be able to play easy mode. Sorry you need to do a little work for those kills - and yes I do have and use LRM equipped mechs on occation.

That it also counters SSRMs is also good because they also need to have a downside. Yes ECM does have downsides - it takes space and has weight. It is easily countered - you all forget that a PPC hit turns it off for 5 sec as well as the effects of Bap and tag. Basically if you cant cut it go play tetris. I hear it's nice and safe and requires no balls.

Edited by Steel Claws, 06 September 2013 - 02:48 PM.

[Blackfoot]

Heh, you should have seen ECM when PGI first introduced it around this time last year.

The forums exploded with thread after thread begging PGI to do something about the holy reign of terror cause by this 1.5 ton piece of equipment. The most common suggestion was for PGI to make BAP a counter to ECM (which they finally did, 6-7 months after the fact and everybody was used to it.) Now you have several counters to ECM. I run a highlander missile boat sometimes and a PPC and tag is usually enough to counter one or two ECM mechs. But in 12v12 drops its common to see 6 or more ECM mechs on the enemy team, so something needs to be done to limit ECM on 12v12's.

Don't worry, I'm sure PGI will implement an overly complicated solution to "fix" it instead of a simple one.

Edited by Blackfoot, 06 September 2013 - 02:53 PM.

[Foxfire]

It would be a problem if they didn't make the BAP a hard counter to the ECM.

If the ECM swarm tactic becomes common place, then people will use the BAP more.

IMO, though, they need make ECM more of an 'anti-artimis' for missiles instead of the inability to target mechs. Info relying debuffs should only apply to mechs caught in the field. Those outside of the fiend should still be able to target ecm and ecm bubble mechs. They shouldn't be able to gather info but they should be able to target.

[sC4r]

the only problem with ecm is its placed on the best variants like comm 2D, raven 3L, spider 5D, atlas DDC... only cicada is ok in this aspect which results often in other variants being lackluster... yea with exception of atlas where D and RS are still very good also currently spiders 5K which provides different playstyle... try and compare raven 2x to 3L or spider 5V to 5D (5v spider is horrible)

other then that ecm is right now where i think it should be... its got a several soft counters (tag/ppc/adv sensor) and long needed hard counter (bap) so if you are about to make any mech that will have ssrm get that BAP on...

as for ecm vs lrm either get yourself TAG or go home

[The Boz]

Steel Claws, on 06 September 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

That it also counters SSRMs is also good because they also need to have a downside. Yes ECM does have downsides - it takes space and has weight. It is easily countered - you all forget that a PPC hit turns it off for 5 sec as well as the effects of Bap and tag. Basically if you cant cut it go play tetris. I hear it's nice and safe and requires no balls.

Ahahaha!
"Takes space and has weight" Yeah, some downside. It's totally unique to this large and heavy piece of equipment. I frequently encounter ECM-compatible mechs that don't run ECMs because they can't afford the weight and size of that bad boy. The choice between ECM and no ECM is even harder than the choice between DHS and SHS.
Note: these last few sentences were sarcastic.
SSRMs also have the same downside. They also have the downside of laughable DPS and laughable range. Why this added downside?
Note: I don't missileboat, I brawl. Never ran a boat in my life.
I still think it's ridiculous how hard ECM shuts down stuff, and how much of a tactical advantage it gives in map control and mobility. And it's also hilarious that it counters itself.

[Roland]

Honestly, I don't really see ECM as being overpowered at all any more.

[Lyoto Machida]

Khobai, on 06 September 2013 - 01:28 PM, said:

Thats not true.

ECM can be in disrupt or counter mode. In disrupt mode, ECM is countered by BAP. In counter mode, ECM has no effect on BAP at all.

BAP is always in counter mode and will counter one ECM in disrupt mode. Two BAPs will counter two ECMs in disrupt mode.

What's dumb about ECM (from what I was recently informed of) is that you can't carry an ECM in disrupt mode and concurrently have a BAP as well to counter enemy ECMs. If you could, you could still provide the umbrella for your team while neutralizing any ECMs that got close enough with your BAP.

From what I've been told, any BAP stacked with ECM loses the countering feature due to the ECM already being there.

[Asakara]

Lyoto Machida, on 06 September 2013 - 03:00 PM, said:

What's dumb about ECM (from what I was recently informed of) is that you can't carry an ECM in disrupt mode and concurrently have a BAP as well to counter enemy ECMs. If you could, you could still provide the umbrella for your team while neutralizing any ECMs that got close enough with your BAP.

From what I've been told, any BAP stacked with ECM loses the countering feature due to the ECM already being there.

http://mwomercs.com/...-may-21st-live/

A Mech that equips both ECM and BAP will only receive the sensor range bonus and the ability to detect powered down Mechs from BAP. Other BAP features gets overridden by the active ECM.

[SweetJackal]

Andross Deverow, on 06 September 2013 - 01:10 PM, said:

Im tellin ya. Have someone else or you use a UAV module... Works great to see the enemy blob under the ecm bubble. Then its free for all lrm rains..

Regards

Well, one problem with that. UAV modules are consumable, one time use that last for a limited time.

I think I've seen it used once.

Best thing I've heard about ECM is it being Jesus In A Can. TAG is a huge "Shoot Me" sign and ECM is the hard counter to the NARC beacon (and when you consider NARC is 3 tons, takes a missile slot, offers little ammo per ton and only absorbs 35 damage as well as being short range...)

[Steel Claws]

The Boz, on 06 September 2013 - 02:57 PM, said:

Ahahaha!
"Takes space and has weight" Yeah, some downside. It's totally unique to this large and heavy piece of equipment. I frequently encounter ECM-compatible mechs that don't run ECMs because they can't afford the weight and size of that bad boy. The choice between ECM and no ECM is even harder than the choice between DHS and SHS.
Note: these last few sentences were sarcastic.
SSRMs also have the same downside. They also have the downside of laughable DPS and laughable range. Why this added downside?
Note: I don't missileboat, I brawl. Never ran a boat in my life.
I still think it's ridiculous how hard ECM shuts down stuff, and how much of a tactical advantage it gives in map control and mobility. And it's also hilarious that it counters itself.

If you brawl then I fail to see why you have issues with ECM at all and it doesn't really shut anything down other than streak boats and those can still get by it if they load a Bap. I have never talked to someone before who said to me "darn I can't brawl because my SRMs, lasers, and cannons were shut down by ECM." Tell me how they are shutting you down.

So far I see just a few people complaining without any basis in fact. ECM does little to no good other than making LRM and streak locks harder - which is what it is supposed to do. So we complain about something now because it is doing what it is supposed to do as long as no one is countering it..... yeah I guess some people are. Perhaps MWO isn't for everyone.

[The Boz]

When have I ever said that the ECM is shutting down my weapons?
Last match, 9 out of 24 mechs had an ECM installed. Just saying.

[Steel Claws]

The Boz, on 06 September 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

When have I ever said that the ECM is shutting down my weapons?
Last match, 9 out of 24 mechs had an ECM installed. Just saying.

And did ECM tip the balance of the game and if so how? - and spiders dont count because it isnt the ECM that makes them annoying. I'll bet more than 75 percent had a flush module too and were able to shoot several more times to make kills. And probably about that many had a seismic module installed so they could track targets in cover. Both of those modules ahve a far greater impact on the game and weigh nothing. They just take up a module slot and are counrtered by nothing. Another third probably had advanced zoom installed too - which makes head shots childs play. Damn better get the pitch forks and torches.

Edited by Steel Claws, 06 September 2013 - 03:49 PM.