131 replies to this topic

[Wolfways]

Steel Claws, on 06 September 2013 - 03:26 PM, said:

So far I see just a few people complaining without any basis in fact. ECM does little to no good other than making LRM and streak locks harder - which is what it is supposed to do.

No it isn't.

From Sarna:
"The Guardian ECM Suite was introduced in 2597 by the Terran Hegemony^[1]. Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors.^[2] Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming. The Capellan Confederation expanded the utility of the Guardian even more with the introduction of Stealth Armor.^[3] Contemporary guided missiles such as standard LRM or Streak SRMs are not affected by the Guardian suite and will be able to achieve hard lock as normal."

Just want to point out that last line again...
"Contemporary guided missiles such as standard LRM or Streak SRMs are not affected by the Guardian suite and will be able to achieve hard lock as normal."

[semalferuzA]

The game was worse before ECM was put in. Most games sat at a stalemate for 5 minutes while both sides exchanged LRM volleys often from 800M away. LRMs can still be a threat but no, it's not like it was.

ECM can be reworked in the future(possibly once more tech is implemented) but it will take more than some simple tweaks to ensure the game doesn't resort to boring LRM matches again.

[Wolfways]

semalferuzA, on 06 September 2013 - 04:06 PM, said:

The game was worse before ECM was put in. Most games sat at a stalemate for 5 minutes while both sides exchanged LRM volleys often from 800M away. LRMs can still be a threat but no, it's not like it was.

ECM can be reworked in the future(possibly once more tech is implemented) but it will take more than some simple tweaks to ensure the game doesn't resort to boring LRM matches again.

That doesn't even make sense. How can both sides exchange LRM volleys when players are using cover?
What you mean is the players who didn't have any long-ranged weapons didn't know how to use cover to get close to the enemy.

[Steel Claws]

Wolfways, on 06 September 2013 - 03:47 PM, said:

No it isn't.

From Sarna:
"The Guardian ECM Suite was introduced in 2597 by the Terran Hegemony^[1]. Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors.^[2] Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming. The Capellan Confederation expanded the utility of the Guardian even more with the introduction of Stealth Armor.^[3] Contemporary guided missiles such as standard LRM or Streak SRMs are not affected by the Guardian suite and will be able to achieve hard lock as normal."

Just want to point out that last line again...
"Contemporary guided missiles such as standard LRM or Streak SRMs are not affected by the Guardian suite and will be able to achieve hard lock as normal."

In the context of MWO yes it is. This isn't table top nor is it Batteltech - per say. You may quote all of the sources you desire but that doesnt mean {Scrap} in a video game. Specially this one apparently. Find me a passage in Sarna that says Gauss should have a firing delay or that firing X number of weapons at the same time will cause added bonus heat.

[Wolfways]

Steel Claws, on 06 September 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

In the context of MWO yes it is. This isn't table top nor is it Batteltech - per say. You may quote all of the sources you desire but that doesnt mean {Scrap} in a video game. Specially this one apparently. Find me a passage in Sarna that says Gauss should have a firing delay or that firing X number of weapons at the same time will cause added bonus heat.

That's my point really. MWO isn't Battletech.
PGI are using the IP to attract fans (or at least the founders) but are creating a game very loosely based on BT. The way they seem to be going it will get so loose it will fall off...

[semalferuzA]

Wolfways, on 06 September 2013 - 04:13 PM, said:

That doesn't even make sense. How can both sides exchange LRM volleys when players are using cover?
What you mean is the players who didn't have any long-ranged weapons didn't know how to use cover to get close to the enemy.

Because both sides would step out to get target locks and fire. Sometimes players on either side would get bored or impatient and would wander out and die. Who can blame them? Sitting around for 5 minutes is boring.

Also, I didn't say everyone always got destroyed by LRMs. The reason you had to wait so long was for most mechs to expend their LRM arsenals.

You can only get so close by using cover. and those gaps in the cover where you could get hit by a volley or two of LRMs would be one or two volleys of an LRM 200.

Edited by semalferuzA, 06 September 2013 - 04:31 PM.

[Wolfways]

semalferuzA, on 06 September 2013 - 04:30 PM, said:

Because both sides would step out to get target locks and fire. Sometimes players on either side would get bored or impatient and would wander out and die. Who can blame them? Sitting around for 5 minutes is boring.

Also, I didn't say everyone always got destroyed by LRMs. The reason you had to wait so long was for most mechs to expend their LRM arsenals.

You can only get so close by using cover. and those gaps in the cover where you could get hit by a volley or two of LRMs would be one or two volleys of an LRM 200.

But LRM mechs need to get a lock and keep it until the missiles hit. Before ECM there were no maps that were even close to not having enough cover to move around the whole map without someone having the time to lock on and lead missiles to a target.
I remember the crying about LRM's...it's still going on.

[GalaxyBluestar]

everyone loves ecm it's the piece of equipment nobody has ever had any trouble with and it shall continue as it is forever attracting more players for another year yet.

GalaxyBluestar, on 25 August 2013 - 12:00 AM, said:

i seriously thought this was a necroed thread...

14 March 2013 - 06:04 AM
Played 5 Games Tonight, Team With More Ecm Always Won.

28 February 2013 - 04:31 AM
MWO: Forums - Pugs = Team With The Most Ecm Wins

Dec 22 2012 05:57 PM
Ecm - Game Ruining Experience, Must Rebalance - MechWarrior ...

Dec 05 2012 06:49 AM
MWO: Forums - Ecm Overkill - MechWarrior Online

Dec 04 2012 08:47 PM from honeymoon to spamtastic rofl ecm ambushes
MWO: Forums - Ecm Feedback

I repeat there has never been any trouble with ecm turning many people off this game.

[The Boz]

Steel Claws, on 06 September 2013 - 03:44 PM, said:

And did ECM tip the balance of the game and if so how?

Yes, the ECM will tip the balance in EVERY encounter, and here's how:
1. Ambush potential. With an ECM, a mech can move around freely without showing up on anyone's radar. The counters are hilariously short-ranged to be effective against this kind of battlefield mobility.
2. It prevents targeting. This is HUGE, as you have no idea what area of the mech is already damaged, what weapons they're packing, and what you should be shooting at.
3. As mentioned before, it counters all lock-on missiles. And not just by decreasing accuracy or anything like that; it HARD-COUNTERS them. They just flat out stop being effective.
4. The importance of the ECM increases the importance of ECM, as one ECM can counter another. This is not only hilarious, but it shifts the balance of mech choice towards the ECM-compatible mechs.
Now please, once again, tell me how this one device is easily countered, has an irrelevant effect, takes up valuable slots and tons, costs a lot of money, and isn't all that good in the sack either.

P.S.
I've been recently ranting and raving about the ECM and UAC5, saying how badly they need to be looked at. Before you start saying how I'm a kid that is just crying about the things that kill me, guess what my Atlas D-DC is packing.

[Jesus Box]

December called. It wants its post back. It's willing to trade you a BAP and spare LRM missiles for it.

[semalferuzA]

The Boz, on 06 September 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

Yes, the ECM will tip the balance in EVERY encounter, and here's how:
1. Ambush potential. With an ECM, a mech can move around freely without showing up on anyone's radar. The counters are hilariously short-ranged to be effective against this kind of battlefield mobility.
2. It prevents targeting. This is HUGE, as you have no idea what area of the mech is already damaged, what weapons they're packing, and what you should be shooting at.
3. As mentioned before, it counters all lock-on missiles. And not just by decreasing accuracy or anything like that; it HARD-COUNTERS them. They just flat out stop being effective.
4. The importance of the ECM increases the importance of ECM, as one ECM can counter another. This is not only hilarious, but it shifts the balance of mech choice towards the ECM-compatible mechs.
Now please, once again, tell me how this one device is easily countered, has an irrelevant effect, takes up valuable slots and tons, costs a lot of money, and isn't all that good in the sack either.

P.S.
I've been recently ranting and raving about the ECM and UAC5, saying how badly they need to be looked at. Before you start saying how I'm a kid that is just crying about the things that kill me, guess what my Atlas D-DC is packing.

1. Actually the counters are eyes, communication, seismic sensor, and non-lock-on based weaponry.
2. Mostly true. When in doubt most players just aim for the CT or torsos with high weapon density which generally works out fine. Most shots land on one of the three torso sections. Sections with heavy damage are probably smoking.
3. Tag works perfectly fine against Heavy/Assault mechs which make up the most of the group compositions. Even without ECM LRMs are not effective against lights. They move too fast, allowing AMS to do work and can get to cover. If you watch LRMs tracking on fast moving lights a very small amount of missiles actually hit the light, even out in the open. Many simply impact the ground.
4. You don't need 12 ECM mechs. Having a few around is pretty useful though. If a lot of enemy mechs are in-range to jam your ECMs then teams are probably brawling and it's impact is usually minimal anyway.

It's not always easily countered but sometimes it is; though in general it is not supposed to be instantly countered. It's effects are relevant, as intended. It's not supposed to be difficult to fit into a build. It's cost is in-line with other pieces of equipment. Even if it cost 15million C-Bills everyone would eventually buy one and move it around their ECM capable mechs like they do with modules. I can't speak to whether or not it's good in the sack.

ECM will eventually be tweaked but for now the game is better off with it as-is. I read a post somewhere today that sourced a quote stating UAC5 was being looked at for a possible change. I don't care enough to find it again though.

Edited by semalferuzA, 06 September 2013 - 05:50 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Ambush potential. With an ECM, a mech can move around freely without showing up on anyone's radar. The counters are hilariously short-ranged to be effective against this kind of battlefield mobility.

Nope. Can still see mechs even if you cant detect them. The fact you can see farther than sensors can detect is one of the biggest flaws of the game IMO. Plus Seismic.

Quote

It prevents targeting. This is HUGE, as you have no idea what area of the mech is already damaged, what weapons they're packing, and what you should be shooting at.

Big deal that only affects a very small subset of weapons and EVERYONE aims for center torso most of the time anyway. And certain mechs you know have XLs just because.

Quote

3. As mentioned before, it counters all lock-on missiles. And not just by decreasing accuracy or anything like that; it HARD-COUNTERS them. They just flat out stop being effective.

No it really just counters LRMs. BAP still makes Streaks effective. And LRMs arnt as effective as direct fire weapons even without ECM so its not a big deal.

Quote

The importance of the ECM increases the importance of ECM, as one ECM can counter another. This is not only hilarious, but it shifts the balance of mech choice towards the ECM-compatible mechs.

Not really since mechs without ECM can still kill mechs with ECM using direct fire weapons.

[semalferuzA]

Wolfways, on 06 September 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

But LRM mechs need to get a lock and keep it until the missiles hit. Before ECM there were no maps that were even close to not having enough cover to move around the whole map without someone having the time to lock on and lead missiles to a target.
I remember the crying about LRM's...it's still going on.

Organized team play is entirely different than PUGs. But for the sake of argument Caustic Valley is pretty open. The angle of the terrain is also favorable to missiles so even if you lose your lock at the end of the missile tracking there's a decent chance some missiles might hit someone. It's also an incredibly easy map to utilize a spotter.

Forest colony the only path available with enough cover is going through the tunnel but that also has it's drawbacks. You can potentially get close assuming the other team is mostly positioned by the hill. All other pathways you get to a point where you have to cross an open area.

River city has pretty good cover. You do get into a situation though where it's hard for larger mechs to advance. Getting a lock with Artemis does not take long at all. Eventually you just have to weather the storm to get into their base. If you remember, the team with the base in upper city very frequently just sat inside it while the team from lower eventually advanced on it.

Frozen city has just enough terrain that both sides can't advance past a certain point. Organized groups could deal with it. For pugs it becomes a problem but you could motivate them into a base race by going tunnel.

Other maps weren't implemented at the time. The game has changed quite a bit since the days of 50-100% of mechs in a game running mass LRMs. For awhile they were replaced by brawling with SRMs/ACs. Then they were replaced by PPCs/Gauss. Now we are rediscovering the meta under the new changes to PPC/Gauss. The meta can be different in competitive play.

[Wolfways]

semalferuzA, on 06 September 2013 - 06:08 PM, said:

Organized team play is entirely different than PUGs. But for the sake of argument Caustic Valley is pretty open. The angle of the terrain is also favorable to missiles so even if you lose your lock at the end of the missile tracking there's a decent chance some missiles might hit someone. It's also an incredibly easy map to utilize a spotter.

Forest colony the only path available with enough cover is going through the tunnel but that also has it's drawbacks. You can potentially get close assuming the other team is mostly positioned by the hill. All other pathways you get to a point where you have to cross an open area.

River city has pretty good cover. You do get into a situation though where it's hard for larger mechs to advance. Getting a lock with Artemis does not take long at all. Eventually you just have to weather the storm to get into their base. If you remember, the team with the base in upper city very frequently just sat inside it while the team from lower eventually advanced on it.

Frozen city has just enough terrain that both sides can't advance past a certain point. Organized groups could deal with it. For pugs it becomes a problem but you could motivate them into a base race by going tunnel.

Other maps weren't implemented at the time. The game has changed quite a bit since the days of 50-100% of mechs in a game running mass LRMs. For awhile they were replaced by brawling with SRMs/ACs. Then they were replaced by PPCs/Gauss. Now we are rediscovering the meta under the new changes to PPC/Gauss. The meta can be different in competitive play.

Yeah i guess that's true. I've never had a problem with LRM's (other than the two days they dropped vertically) but i've only ever played in pugs...something i hope to change in the future if PGI can get their act together.

[Sheraf]

ECM should only makes lock time significantly longer, but not immune to lock at a distance.

[Sasha Volkova]

You must be new around here.

But trust me, ECM is not too strong.
You clearly never experienced the hell that ECM used to be :b
But saying that you think its too strong, is a good indication that perhabs the rest of us simply accepted it in its current state since it is still alot weaker than when we first saw it implemented :b

[Doc Andrews]

In most competitive drop decks, we struggle to get ONE ECM unit fielded. Why? Because that tonnage is often better used elsewhere. And frankly, we don't fear guided missiles all that much. Or enemy ECM.


In Pugs, BAP and TAG both counter the edge cases of ECM, and if you're running a missile boat, you have both. Sometimes you'll get screwed, most times you won't.

In short, ECM is fine. Make it any worse and it will virtually disappear from competitive play. And in Pugs, we already see plenty of mechs like DDC's who could carry it, but opt for an extra ton of ammo instead. It's nowhere near as powerful or as popular as it was some moths ago.

Edited by Doc Andrews, 06 September 2013 - 06:46 PM.

[Navy Sixes]

Vodrin Thales, on 06 September 2013 - 01:22 PM, said:

Why would you ever run ECM on a LRM catapult? It provides no protection from any decent enemy LRM player (as you will be tagged if he considers you a decent target), and you should never be close enough to an enemy LRM mech to potentially help shut him down. Just run BAP and be done with it.

BAP only thwarts ECM within something like 200m. Your minimum range for LRMs is 180m. Your target will be almost immune to your LRMs by the time BAP has any effect. Maybe I am misunderstanding the effect of ECM. Can't it be set to disrupt any ECM within it's range? Isn't that more than 200m? "I don't always LRM, but when I do, I LRM with aggression," said the most interesting Cat-driver alive! So getting in close isn't a problem. The problem is that I want the same options that ECM-mechs have. I'm fast and maneuverable enough to break up a TAG, assuming the enemy is fitting them. Many in the PUG don't bother with them; that's an energy slot and a ton that has to be wasted on a glow-in-the-dark kick me sign (shoot here!) just to counter an enemies ECM.

[Koniving]

nehebkau, on 06 September 2013 - 12:06 PM, said:

ECM.

ECM should have / could have been changed very early on in its implementation as a part of information warfare, and given the theme of lies and deception through the use of ghost targets and target multiplication as well as information jamming rather than the theme of invisibility. Remember that information warfare is one of the founding principles of the game which has essentially been lost.

Spoiler

The first: Ghost targets is the creation of a non-real target, preferably some distance away from yourself, that otherwise mimics what you do. You could be in, say, a Commando and create a ghost target of an Atlas, Stalker, and Centurion about 300 meters off to your right and have it feed to enemies even though no one's actually spotted these fake targets. This gives false information to your enemy, and makes them think that you have a force in B8, when in reality they are all in G3, with the exception of the lone Commando pumping out false information.

Ghost targets use mech data, weapon information, and even names from actual players on the team to create their signals. Of course one might realize the ghost data when they're looking at JohnMcFeely in front of them, yet someone else has a JohnMcFeely targeted in the middle of nowhere.

The second: Target multiplication. This is an aspect to use while jamming instead of the "invisibility cloak" that ECM currently uses. Yes, an enemy that spots you can see you and target you. But there's 3 to 6 targets to choose from in close proximity, and anyone else that can't directly see you sees a cluster of unidentified targets. They can try to fire on these targets, but if there's 6 of them then there's only a one in six chance that they can hit you. Further more there's no target labels, so there's no "He's target B". They're all blank. Only one is real. But everyone can see them pop up, so no one is truly in the dark. That, and everyone can shoot them.

Now, it's important to note that to counter this, the more mechs who have eye contact on the ECM mech, the more precise the target data is. If he starts with 6, when one player sees him, he'll have maybe 4 when a second player sees him too, and if a third player sees him, 2, and finally if 4 players see him the target multiplication jam is essentially non-helpful to the ECM user. This also encourages some stealth gameplay, preying on individuals.

Note that BAP is supposed to help penetrate ECM jamming, but it is not supposed to be an actual counter at close range. One player with BAP would still reduce the target multiplier by only 2, but within 500 meters even with the jamming, target identification data can be collected and sent to others, telling them exactly which one is the real one and once the data is collected, assigning a letter, name, and damage data to all allies.

Of course, if he gets close to you, your ability to communicate your target data over to anyone else becomes compromised. He disappears from everyone else's sensors. Your own scan range gets reduced, making it impossible to target things beyond 400 meters (but this total jam only works within the ECM's range).

Tag is a bit more definite in actually fighting the target multiplication (by reducing it to 2 or less, with them only slightly off center from the real target) and without delay. But this only works outside of the ECM bubble as TAG relies on your mech communicating the data to other allies; if they can't communicate with you (due to close range jamming) then the tag is useless. This means that actual spotters can spot ECM mechs with ease and with devastating results, but if the ECM mech gets close to the spotter the spotter is screwed.

Tag can spot and mark ECM that is producing ghost targets as well, with 100% accuracy (unlike the 2 targets or less with slightly off center during jamming).

Tag reduces the ECM lock-on delay to normal, but doesn't allow for accelerated lock ons against ECM.

NARC can mark an ECM mech if fired during a non-jamming mode. Once tethered, it'll eagerly screw up the ECM briefly, but at a reduced time compared to NARC against something else.

ECM can fry NARCs on allied mechs (as they do now).

On to the third aspect of ECM, which runs during jam target multiplication for all allies within the bubble although during ghost target it exclusively runs for the ECM user: Information jamming. This masks any information about the mech or mechs and keeps any identifying marks from getting out. You can still target them, but no data is given. Simply "unknown, unknown, unknown, no data." No name, no mech chassis, no identifying letter, and no status indicators. This occurs up to MWO's ECM ranges, and within that space where you could target them on MWO, real information will churn out and just as quickly disappear.

Of course, there is counter which will work as intended. It will counter rival ECM. Not certain if it'd counter the benefits of BAP, or if that should be left under jam.

But take those as unhashed out ideas I came up with based on a mixture of real ECM (which can't mask you, only have you misread as being somewhere else. The target multiplier thing is a real ECM feature, though here it's combined with radar displacement to produce something reasonably fair and to allow semi-skill based counters that don't require special equipment. Ghost targets feed off of both actual Guardian ECM functions from lore as well as the information warfare concept.

Alas, ECM isn't going to change much beyond where it is now. It's also not difficult to deal with. Bring backup methods for dealing with ECM mechs. Before the bap counter, we'd escort our Streak Cat with twin Commandos. But these days all you really need is a couple of MPL to back up your streaks or LRMs as a defense against ECM mechs.

Edit: Missing words.

Edited by Koniving, 06 September 2013 - 07:11 PM.

[Koniving]

Tycho von Gagern, on 06 September 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

BAP only thwarts ECM within something like 200m. Your minimum range for LRMs is 180m.

Advanced Sensor Range module level 2. Gives you 200 to 250 meters of anti-ECM capability, combine that with BAP, and ECM only works at 270 to 251 to stop your LRM lock-ons. (Numbers not exact, it's been a while.)

Edited by Koniving, 06 September 2013 - 07:11 PM.