131 replies to this topic

[Tyman4]

My 2 cents. I run faster mechs, nothing slower than 80 kph normally. I have no trouble simply avoiding missles and breaking lock by powering down. ECM is relatively useless because invariably a jenner will have BAP he will chase me And LRMS will start smacking me until I get rid of him. Multiple ECM is better, but really one in a group is enough.

SO why not make ECM just cover one mech? Just the mech carrying it. The fact is SHARING the ECM bubble is what is OP IMO. though the devs probably need to lower LRM damage in that case. or make the bubble smaller

[Navy Sixes]

Steel Claws, on 09 September 2013 - 08:48 AM, said:

The difference is that the energy/ballistic mech can't set behind cover and use other peoples target locks to fire his weapons. They won't also arch over the top of said cover to rain on the mech behind it - and yes terrain does help but LRMs still get over quite a bit of terrain. If you had to have line of sight to get a missile lock I'd say yes ECM is too strong, but that's not the case. As I have stated before, ECM is in it's current state to balance out LRMs to the point where they are balanced. LRMs are still very effective in game - both on the using and receiving side. If ECM was nerfed down they would also have to look at nerfing down LRMs... again.

Oh, the old indirect-fire boogyman...

Remember a few months ago, when 5-6 PPC Stalkers were 3-4 (at least) members of every 8-man drop? Everyone said PPCs need a nerf, but a lot of players felt like it was unfair to nerf all PPCs because some players were using one, maybe two, and not abusing the game mechanics. So instead PGI imposed "ghost heat." Like it or not, ghost heat worked to get rid of the silly sniper Stalkers, and didn't punish the one-or-two PPC users.

All of you people playing in four+ member premades, with voip and experience working as a unit... when you use an LRM boat/ Light TAG Spotter, you're the silly sniper Stalkers. The rest of us who PUG on the weekends and just want to run our C-4 for a few hours and have fun... we're the players fitting one or two PPCs. I don't care what goes on in premade teams. I'm not in a premade team, and since I'm only playing on the weekends, I doubt I want to commit to a premade team. I shouldn't be punished for the abuse of game mechanics that goes on in the premade teams. (I know, I know... "What abuse? We're not breaking any rules. If PGI didn't want us to do this, they wouldn't make it possible, right?" said every pre-ghost heat silly sniper Stalker). Let's keep this conversation centered on the PUG solos, where most members of the MWO community (including a lot of sync-dropping premade dnozzles) play.

No voip. You're playing with strangers. They always seem to be either rookies who don't know what the 'R' button does at all, let alone its role in indirect fire, or 'Pros' who are "Too jock to lock." (Like that? I just came up with it! If anyone turns this into a t-shirt, gimme one.) Even still, you on occasion get that rare insane light mech driver that would rather fit a TAG and spot than load another medium laser and get 500+ damage and 4+ kills. Assuming they're any good (I've been getting a rash of fast spotters who run really quick out behind the enemy's front and start tagging slow assaults and LRM support mechs... when they're still 1.7k away. Once dead, they type "Dude, I broke cover to TAG that Atlas and no one LRMed. Suck-*** team.") So, on the rare occasion when all of those stars align, an LRM-driver in the PUG may get to rack-up some serious damage using only indirect fire. What're we talking... 200... maybe 300 points of damage? (remember, only damage from no LOS indirect LRM fire counts). That's enough to sway a battle in 8v8, but 2-300 points spread-out over 4-6 entire mechs (no Artemis CT accuracy without LOS) isn't so much of a game-changer in 12v12.

If it's been a while since you've played an LRM-platform, I suggest you dust off that founder's Cat collecting cobwebs in the back of your mechlab and really take-in some 12 v. 12 solo PUG action before commenting further. See how quick you run out of ammo trying to indirect fire at every lock. Type "Hey, LRM40 here, please try and hold your locks." at the beginning of the match and see how many teammates respond, "How do I do that?" or even better: "Hey, 2xUAC5, here. Get your own locks and please try and hold deeez nuuutz." But le'ts say they agree and you get some indirect locks. And say you hit all of them. By the time you're out of ammo (and assuming you've survived the long, long time between your going empty and the end of the game) you'll be saying, "BOY, I'll bet I did cah-razy damage... here it is... 192 points!?!? WTF!?!?"

In 12 on 12 PUG, it is really not worth it to provide indirect fire for other player's locks. If you're firing at someone elses locks, chances are they're far away (outside say, 500m). Assuming they are even trying to keep a lock on that target -which they are often not- that's a lot of hang-time for your missiles to hit... a lot of time for that other guy to have to hold that lock under fire... chances are you won't be connecting. And even if you do, there's all that ams and cover and whatever ...god forbid you're trying to hit a light with the ongoing HSR debacle... then whatever actually connected and registered is spread out over the target's paper doll. That LRM40 salvo looked and sounded and felt awesome coming out of your tubes, didn't it? Sadly, if it connects at all, you'll be lucky to get half of that, spread over that entire target' body. LRM15's gotta 4.25 second cool-down. LRM20's is 4.75. Committing that much time and ammo to a target you can't see for yourself in 12 v 12 is stupid. You've got to get in close to cut down the hang-time, and once you're inside 400m, you might as well take 10 seconds more to manuever into LOS and make all the C-Bills, tons, and energy slots you wasted on Artemis/TAG worth while.

Indirect fire-support in the PUG is a good way for new-players to get aquainted with MWO combat, mostly because it allows them to contribute (sort of) easily without getting in anybody's way, and without any pressure because no one really expects them to accomplish anything major. I mean, I hear these light pilots bragging about how they killed some "noob LRM boat" way behind the line and I'm like, "Dude, that's hardcore. What'd you do next? Go to the mall and shove some old ladies down the escalator?" It's useless. Let me say this again: Indirect-fire is garbage. It's a red-herring. Sooner or later, those rookies get bored/frustrated with having no impact on the game at all and either move on to a different mech/loadout or start learning how to drive that Cat like a nightmare. Until then, it is impossible to carry a team from the third tier with indirect-fire. Be honest, when was the last time you saw a LRM-mech turn-the-tide of a PUG match soley through indirect fire?

You want to make some nerf trades? OK. I'll get rid of my oh-so scary indirect fire capability (no firing on other player's locks, but I can still indirect fire at UAV locks... with my full Artemis bonus) if you'll get rid of ECM entirely (that goes for null-skin and any other anti-lock gear you'll be crying for soon.) In addition, I want a way faster LRM as well as a telemetry option that lets me choose between a high arc for targets that will probably find cover, and a far more shallow, almost direct-fire arc for targets close and in the open (we can put them in different weapon groups.) And from now on you don't get a Betty warning for incoming missiles unless you pay for extra "stuff:" No BAP, no Betty LRM hand-holder for you. You can still have AMS, but only if you've already fitted BAP.

What do you say?

[Hisashi No Oni]

Yes LRM indirect fire is effective (before ECM) Now it is a joke 25% or so of the missiles do anything. If this is how they have made the decision to combat LRM OP. Well what is next big PPC's....Oh sorry they did that too. The point is if you nerf a weapons system for being effective you make another one effective. Soon all the Mechs will have one big pillow and we will be hitting each other with them. Then someone will post that the big Mechs have an advantage in size with there pillows. Make all weapons, armor, and other systems Battletech/Mechwarrior systems to the 30 year old standard. Stop thinking of this as an MMO and start thinking of it as what it is Mechwarrior.

[Wolfways]

I was killed by LRM's today. I was actually shocked at first (killed by LRM's?! ) but then it made me happy that someone got a kill with his LRM's

(Note: No i'm not being sarcastic.)

I'm kind of unhappy with MWO atm because my favourite clan mechs use pulse lasers and LRM's, two of the worst weapons in the game

[Steel Claws]

Tycho von Gagern, on 09 September 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

If it's been a while since you've played an LRM-platform, I suggest you dust off that founder's Cat collecting cobwebs in the back of your mechlab and really take-in some 12 v. 12 solo PUG action before commenting further.

Be honest, when was the last time you saw a LRM-mech turn-the-tide of a PUG match soley through indirect fire?

I run a LRM equipped mech (30 - 40 tubes) usually at least once a day - 10 - 15 times a week (if I'm not working on leveling something up or etc) and I pug about 75 percent of the time I play. I also never have used a dedicated spotter. I'd run them more but I don't like trying to use them on River City - too many buildings to hide behind - and I get that map more than any other. Is that enough cob webs off for you? The damage is normally good (350 +) and I usually get a few kills but not always. I tend to work a little closer to the front so the missiles don't have as much travel time but travel speed of LRMs is a whole different topic (honestly - rockets that can be out ran by a light mech - physics in the 30 century are apparently a bit wierd). I find that if my LRMs have to travel more than 600 meters I might as well not shoot them unless the terrain is open - again this is a travel time issue and not an ECM issue.

LRMs are very effective no matter who is using them as long as the map is a decent one for it. I've been killed by LRMs at least 4 or five times and severely damaged more than that in the last two days and did some killing with them myself. LRMs are great at tearing off armor and components. I usually hole out torsos and take off arms/legs.

Every day I play I see LRMs swing the balance of a game. Some of the worst defeats we've had as a premade recently were because we ran into a steel rain that tore us up while the mechs shooting them remained safely over the hill. I can't tell you if they were pugs using them most of the time but there are usually no dedicated spotters. I play off prime hours and you see a lot more LRMs used by players in asia - they work better with their high pings. Even if you arent hitting a mech they have to duck for cover and are therefore temporarily out of the action. So I would have to say that I honestly see LRMs effecting the game every time they are used.

Edited by Steel Claws, 09 September 2013 - 06:48 PM.

[Navy Sixes]

Steel Claws, on 09 September 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

I run a LRM equipped mech (30 - 40 tubes) usually at least once a day - 10 - 15 times a week (if I'm not working on leveling something up or etc) and I pug about 75 percent of the time I play. I also never have used a dedicated spotter. I'd run them more but I don't like trying to use them on River City - too many buildings to hide behind - and I get that map more than any other. Is that enough cob webs off for you? The damage is normally good (350 +) and I usually get a few kills but not always. I tend to work a little closer to the front so the missiles don't have as much travel time but travel speed of LRMs is a whole different topic (honestly - rockets that can be out ran by a light mech - physics in the 30 century are apparently a bit wierd). I find that if my LRMs have to travel more than 600 meters I might as well not shoot them unless the terrain is open - again this is a travel time issue and not an ECM issue.

LRMs are very effective no matter who is using them as long as the map is a decent one for it. I've been killed by LRMs at least 4 or five times and severely damaged more than that in the last two days and did some killing with them myself. LRMs are great at tearing off armor and components. I usually hole out torsos and take off arms/legs.

Every day I play I see LRMs swing the balance of a game. Some of the worst defeats we've had as a premade recently were because we ran into a steel rain that tore us up while the mechs shooting them remained safely over the hill. I can't tell you if they were pugs using them most of the time but there are usually no dedicated spotters. I play off prime hours and you see a lot more LRMs used by players in asia - they work better with their high pings. Even if you arent hitting a mech they have to duck for cover and are therefore temporarily out of the action. So I would have to say that I honestly see LRMs effecting the game every time they are used.

I didn't say LRMs don't effect the solo Pug. Man, I wouldn't be bothering with this (Non-Founder) Cat if I thought that were true. I'm saying specifically indirect-fire is garbage. Meaning mechs that solely rely on other pilots for their locks. You posted your stats and your anecdotes, and I don't doubt any of it Steel Claw, but how much of that was specifically indirect-fire? I know whenever I'm in RIver City, I always end up in a brawl. Great town.

So yeah, back to the point: If LRMs couldn't fire off of other player's locks, would you agree that getting rid of ECM was reasonable? How about making players buy BAP to get that Betty warning and guide their AMS?

[Kazly]

Glad to see people are still griping about something. Was a little worried for a day or so.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Kazly, on 10 September 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

Glad to see people are still griping about something. Was a little worried for a day or so.

ECM has been broken since the day it was implemented. It just gets old tilting at the same windmills.
PGI's only concession to the problem is 1) not allowing Hero mechs to carry ECM and 2) not creating any new ECM mechs with the hope that under the sheer volume of new mechs the number ECM in matches would diminish.

I have not played a single match since ECM was introduced that didn't not contain at least one ECM mech. I came close last night were my team didn't have ECM, but the opposing team picked up the slack with 4 ECM mechs.

I would love to see an official statistc on ECM in games. Then compare it to other equipment. 99.999% of game have ECM, what percent of games have LRM10s, PPC?, Small Pulse Laser, BAP?

[Navy Sixes]

Kazly, on 10 September 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

Glad to see people are still griping about something. Was a little worried for a day or so.

Me too. That's what Beta is for, right? Are you suggesting that MWO is perfect the way it is? Funny, everyone gripes about how utterly fracked PGI and MWO is, but they turn around and gripe that there's too much griping whenever someone suggests something specific needs fixing. We're having a fun, positive, and respectful debate, Kazly. If MWO is so very perfect for you, why are you here, griping about griping? Go play your perfect game! Or maybe there's a little more of an agenda at play? Is it more like...

"I exclusively use (ECM mechs/ 2PPC-Gauss/ Hit-Derf Spiders/ PPC sniper stalkers) and I can assure you that the people complaining about these things are just whiners. Trust me, they're the only mechs I run so I know what I'm talking about: there's nothing OP about them. Trust me, these gripers won't stop until they've gotten rid of every abuse-able game-mechanic out there! Then what are we supposed to do? Build balanced mechs!? Learn to play without long-range instant 40+ pp alpha loadouts or LRM-invulnerable ECM Atlases? Don't you see they're taking all the fun out of the game!?"

Edited by Tycho von Gagern, 10 September 2013 - 11:36 AM.

[Kazly]

Actually, I do love the game. Not always happy about some things, but ECM is one of those things I thought they addressed pretty well. See, ECM as I recall, was one of the #1 things complained about on the forums for a considerable amount of time. Couple that with the hit box problems on ravens, and the incredible streak damage they did, plus the inability to counter ECM and sure, there was significant reason to complain.

Now, amidst all the other problems at the time - fps bug, HUD bugs, memory leaks, hit detection (use to be very very bad), and only 4 or 5 maps (not including night versions) I think that says a lot that ECM was top of the list.

But! They have implemented many changes to target ECM mechs, counter ECM mechs, disable ECM mechs, and destroy the ECM equipment.

So, I made a flippant comment that was an attempt to be chuckled at instead of taken to heart to the point that you try (unsuccessfully) to rile me up by placing me in a box you deem shameful.

No, I don't think this thread makes relevant points.

[Navy Sixes]

Kazly, on 10 September 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

So, I made a flippant comment that was an attempt to be chuckled at instead of taken to heart to the point that you try (unsuccessfully) to rile me up by placing me in a box you deem shameful.

No, I don't think this thread makes relevant points.

Oh, don't worry, Kazly. We're all chuckling at you, make no mistake.

You don't think you've made any relevant points? Well, at least we all can agree on something.

[Kazly]

Tycho von Gagern, on 10 September 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

Oh, don't worry, Kazly. We're all chuckling at you, make no mistake.

You don't think you've made any relevant points? Well, at least we all can agree on something.

*shrugs*