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Weapon Calibration And Your Teammates


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#161 StarGeezer

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 08:30 AM

View PostTesunie, on 30 September 2013 - 08:00 AM, said:

Good thing Death From Above is not in the game yet...


Some day, my precioussss. Some day...

Mwaha! Mwahaha! Mwahahahaha! :P

#162 Sadistic Savior

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 08:42 AM

View PostRushin Roulette, on 30 September 2013 - 07:28 AM, said:

What exactly is your point of getting players to go AROUND you?

If I am test firing weapons in front of my, I cannot necessarily stop quickly enough to avoid damaging you if you insist on darting in front of me. because I cannot see behind me.

To avoid being damaged, you have the option of darting somewhere other than right in front of me. They are big maps.

You don't have to do this of course. If you want to take the risk of darting in front of me, you are free to do so. I will do my best to avoid hitting you if I see you.

#163 Tesunie

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 09:07 AM

View PostSadistic Savior, on 30 September 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

If I am test firing weapons in front of my, I cannot necessarily stop quickly enough to avoid damaging you if you insist on darting in front of me. because I cannot see behind me.

To avoid being damaged, you have the option of darting somewhere other than right in front of me. They are big maps.

You don't have to do this of course. If you want to take the risk of darting in front of me, you are free to do so. I will do my best to avoid hitting you if I see you.


What if one loads in front and to the side of you? Out side your visual and their visual. Then, they turn sharply to the right to go for a cap, still don't see you as you loaded behind them, but to the right. You don't see them, they don't see you, and you BLAM, shoot all your weapons just as they run inside your fire. Of course, it's their fault for not seeing you pulling the trigger (how do they know you intend to shoot invisible foes?) and it is their fault you didn't look to either side of yourself, or use the peripheral vision (your targeting reticule is in the middle of your screen) to see them coming before they cross in front of your targeting system?

"Your majesty" should probably just wait a few moments into the match and then test fire. If you say 10 seconds wont hurt the game for a cap (or light mechs), then throw your own statement at yourself. 10 seconds of delaying your weapons test (which have little to no benefit in the live fire game anyway) and let the light mechs move out and start those caps 10 seconds sooner (which does have impacting, game altering advantages and can make some games go from a win to a loss) doesn't hurt you in the least.

The problem here is, you can not control your teammates. If you suspect that they might/probably/will run in front of you, then you should look out for them as they're moving out isn't going to hurt you. You, however, have complete control over your own mech, which means any action you take is your responsibility. Fast mechs moving out doesn't hinder nor risk your mech. You shooting your weapons at start of match can hinder and risk your teammate's mechs. Which do you think is a greater reward/teamplay between the two options?

The whole point of the thread was nicely summarized here, and I feel it was well worded:

View PostHammerfinn, on 30 September 2013 - 12:41 AM, said:

This thread, short version:

FF happens. It's nobody's fault.

Testing weapons at match start is not penalized, but is extremely stupid since any advantage gained can be attained by running the testing grounds.

Match start FF is selfish and inexcusable, and you take that onus (as selfish and {Scrap} teammate) upon yourself if you choose to engage in such behavior, which, if repeated, is punishable.


I also noticed you conveniently had nothing to add to the list of ideas?

View PostTesunie, on 25 September 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

So, here is my question to help the topic:
What can be done to prevent this from happening?

So far, I've seen this list causes for why someone shoots at the start of the match:
- I like hearing my weapons fire.
- I don't want to waste time in the testing grounds.
- I can't help myself from shooting my weapons.
- I'm too lazy and impatient.
- I alt-tab out of the game while it is match finding or loading the screen so I can do other things, and then when I click into the game it accidentally fires all my weapons, sometimes resulting in friendly fire.
- Sometimes a bug happens which is outside my control that fires all my weapons.
- Sometimes, while I type, it didn't type but instead it fires my weapon groups.
- Sometimes, instead of hitting f4 (or whatever), I hit the number 4, shooting off all weapons in group 4.
(Did I miss any?)

So, what are possible solutions to these problems?
- Testing grounds. You can test heat endurance, weapon reload, damage output, etc.
- If you have to test in a match, you can turn around and shoot the (more than likely) wall behind your mech, inconveniencing only yourself and not your team. Also helps minimize risk of friendly fire.
- Wait about 10-20 seconds into the match for the faster mechs to remove themselves from the group and go where they are going, and then commence weapons test.
- Change weapon group 1 to be blank, and upon start of match use the arrow keys to select weapon group 3, having that set up as what weapon group 1 would be.
- Report a fire bug when you see if happen. If you can repeat it, include what you did to make it happen.
- Try to make sure you are typing into chat, but sometimes it will happen. No suggestions from me here.
- Try to make sure you are hitting the correct button, but accidents do happen. Apologize and move on.

Anyone else have anything to add? Did I miss anything? Any other user side solutions that others can think of to counter some of these problems? Any suggestions one can make to PGI to make it less penalizing to the team or to punish the responsible person more?

For PGI, I'd suggest some of the following ideas to consider:
- Make mechs immune to friendly fire for the first 10 seconds of the match. (I do not recommend this, but it could solve the problem.)
- Make FF penalties apply to damage only. The more damage you cause to a friendly mech, the worse the penalty. Keep or remove the current teamkill penalty. I'd suggest removing the teamkill and replace with team damage. Make it similar, but more expensive, to damage done rewards. (Make it like Damage Done/Component Destruction rewards, but as penalties and maybe at twice the rate. That way, you blow off a friendly mechs arm, you pay for the component destruction.)
- In combination of FF damage and/or teamkill penalties, maybe have these penalties be shifted as an income for the person on the receiving end of the damage. (You blow off my arm, you pay for new arm. Just like with a car and an accident. You damaged my car and it's your fault, you pay for the damages.)
- Disable weapons fire for the first 10 seconds of the game. (Would probably help prevent sniping from base to base in river city too.) (I do not recommend this.)
- Try to enforce testing grounds more. Possibly have mechlab as a spot on a map, and testing ground is your default area where you load in? Then you can walk to your mechbay for mechlab construction and mech changing, and when you exit the mechlab, you enter into a testing ground area. From the testing ground area, you can launch into missions. If we have lobbies, testing grounds could also be merged with a "while you wait" area. (Random idea, probably require a lot of work.)


Instead, you harp on me saying you don't take adequate precaution with a whine that said "You don't know that". I can know that. You hit someone at start of match willfully pulling the trigger? Well, you didn't take enough precaution then. You don't use the testing grounds, which would be all the precaution you would ever truly need, and you admit to actually damaging friendly mechs with a "willful" pulling of the trigger (intent aside, as no one but you can possibly know what you intent was).

So, instead of arguing the same points over and over again, you have anything productive to say? Have anything you wish to add to the list? You take so many "precautions" to prevent your test fire from hitting an ally, want to add them to the list for user side solutions to preventing friendly fire? You must be the expert, as I see it as too dangerous to attempt unless it can not be helped.

#164 Rushin Roulette

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 09:10 AM

View PostSadistic Savior, on 30 September 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

If I am test firing weapons in front of my, I cannot necessarily stop quickly enough to avoid damaging you if you insist on darting in front of me. because I cannot see behind me.

To avoid being damaged, you have the option of darting somewhere other than right in front of me. They are big maps.

You don't have to do this of course. If you want to take the risk of darting in front of me, you are free to do so. I will do my best to avoid hitting you if I see you.



Well, as promissed, Ill explain why your point about going around someone does not work to reduce incomming friendly fire.

Why in the world would anyone not go around you? If they wouldnt go around you, then they would be going through you which 1 doesnt work and 2 if you do try it, then you rubber band and both take a little damage

The other thing which has been written multiple times in this thread is that people take the shortest route to a specific point. If you are in the way of this optimal route, then just like on the motorway, they will pass to one side and veer back to the optimal line for the shortest route again. Taking this simple psychological point into concideration it is easy to predict that if something fast passes to oen side, there is a high chance that they will veer a little which would place them infront of you very soon. While passing a slower mech, the faster mech comming from behind is always the one responsible to pass the slower mech without causing a collision.

Once the faster mech is past, the responsibility passes to the slower mech in the back to make sure that the other mech is not damaged by him. The reason behind this is, the mech infront cant damage the mech behind and can also not see the rear mech or know what he/she is thinking.

Wait a few seconds until you are sure that you can predict the path of the guys infront of you and are sure that no faster mech is left behind you, then you are free to fire.

#165 Sadistic Savior

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 09:13 AM

View PostTesunie, on 30 September 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:


What if one loads in front and to the side of you? Out side your visual and their visual.

Then it is in their best interest not to dart in front to me. They can move to the side or the rear without risk.

View PostRushin Roulette, on 30 September 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

Why in the world would anyone not go around you?

Thats my question? If they don't want to take the risk of FF, why would they not go around me?

Quote

The other thing which has been written multiple times in this thread is that people take the shortest route to a specific point.

As with most shortest routes, they often come with risk. But it is not a requirement that they take the shortest route.

#166 Tesunie

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 09:45 AM

View PostSadistic Savior, on 30 September 2013 - 09:13 AM, said:

Then it is in their best interest not to dart in front to me. They can move to the side or the rear without risk.


Unless you turn around to shoot, then behind you becomes a risk zone.
Unless you twist your torso and shoot that nicely placed rock to the side of you.
Unless you stand forward and shoot directly in front of you.
Unless you aim into the air and fire, and then if they try to go over you, they are at risk.
Unless you aim at the ground, and then you could shoot someone's legs off.

We do not know were your guns are pointed at, and they can quickly change direction without notice or warning. I agree with Rushin Roulette. We fast mechs are responsible for moving around the slower mechs without running into them. You slower mechs are responsible for not shooting us faster mechs when we do go around you, as we will at some point in some fashion and way.

View PostRushin Roulette, on 30 September 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:



Well, as promissed, Ill explain why your point about going around someone does not work to reduce incomming friendly fire.

Why in the world would anyone not go around you? If they wouldnt go around you, then they would be going through you which 1 doesnt work and 2 if you do try it, then you rubber band and both take a little damage

The other thing which has been written multiple times in this thread is that people take the shortest route to a specific point. If you are in the way of this optimal route, then just like on the motorway, they will pass to one side and veer back to the optimal line for the shortest route again. Taking this simple psychological point into concideration it is easy to predict that if something fast passes to oen side, there is a high chance that they will veer a little which would place them infront of you very soon. While passing a slower mech, the faster mech comming from behind is always the one responsible to pass the slower mech without causing a collision.

Once the faster mech is past, the responsibility passes to the slower mech in the back to make sure that the other mech is not damaged by him. The reason behind this is, the mech infront cant damage the mech behind and can also not see the rear mech or know what he/she is thinking.

Wait a few seconds until you are sure that you can predict the path of the guys infront of you and are sure that no faster mech is left behind you, then you are free to fire.


I will say, if I can, I will try to go around behind someone, but I can't always do that, or it would slow me down unnecessarily. It is of no inconvenience to you to hold your fire till either you see an enemy target, or till the faster mechs have moved out and it is safer to test them. It is a huge inconvenience for faster mechs to always go around behind you (where ever that might be at a given moment) to avoid your selfish test fire. We should not have to pay for your laziness, especially when our actions (unlike yours) can have impact on the game and can result in the game being a win or lose.

Which has MORE benefit to THE TEAM:
1) Shooting at the start of the match to "test" weapons. Something that can be done in the testing grounds with no risk. (Causes possible risk of damaging teammates and hindering the teams performance at worse, or "making sounds and strobes"/informing you of how well your heat dissipates/arrange your own weapon groupings/waste ammo at best. All of which can be done on the testing grounds. Plus, if you are familiar with your mech, you shouldn't need to test your weapons, you should already know how they work.)

or

2) Having fast mechs get out sooner so they can scout/cap faster, which helps the whole team gain more points for capture sooner, and/or provides intelligence to the team sooner so the team can position themselves according to where and how the enemy is (or drive right into them, letting them get into the action sooner, instead of wondering around till they find something).

Personally, I take more stock in option 2. It helps the team better, and option 1 can still be done but at a later time when it is far safer to preform the action. So, option 2 (unless you can find some logical reason otherwise) is a better option, benefits everyone on the team more, and doesn't hinder option 1 at all, seen as option 1 can be done at a slightly later time.



So, to summarize, forcing people to work around you in this case is a hindrance to your team. You waiting a little bit longer on your test is of no hindrance to your team and only a small hindrance to you, as you can still preform the test but have to wait a short bit longer before you do.

#167 Jaded Mantis

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 10:45 AM

Solution? In the 1st 30 seconds of a match you take 10x any damage you do to a friendly...

#168 Sadistic Savior

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 12:35 PM

View PostJaded Mantis, on 30 September 2013 - 10:45 AM, said:

Solution? In the 1st 30 seconds of a match you take 10x any damage you do to a friendly...

That is an acceptable solution to me.

It will not stop me from testing weapons though.

#169 Nick Makiaveli

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 03:40 PM

Does anyone here think SS is listening to them? He thinks we should take a wide arc around ALL OTHER MECHS IN OUR SPAWN. Seriously, think about that a second. It's isn't like we see that SS is in our group, and have to worry about FF. ANY player could do this. So basically we spawn, and his solution is nobody moves at all. That way there is no risk of FF, then I suppose we should ask in chat, all done? What for responses and then proceed.

Much better than people just not being idiots.

He can't even seem to grasp the idea that "big map" doesn't equal room to go around fire. Seems he thinks I should circle a 1K meters around any other mech in case they decide to test their Lasers? Sure, no rush to cap that base.

He isn't willing to concede the point. Ample ideas have been presented for any reasonable person, so let's just let him go on about his business.

#170 Tesunie

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 04:04 PM

View PostNick Makiaveli, on 30 September 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

Does anyone here think SS is listening to them? He thinks we should take a wide arc around ALL OTHER MECHS IN OUR SPAWN. Seriously, think about that a second. It's isn't like we see that SS is in our group, and have to worry about FF. ANY player could do this. So basically we spawn, and his solution is nobody moves at all. That way there is no risk of FF, then I suppose we should ask in chat, all done? What for responses and then proceed.

Much better than people just not being idiots.

He can't even seem to grasp the idea that "big map" doesn't equal room to go around fire. Seems he thinks I should circle a 1K meters around any other mech in case they decide to test their Lasers? Sure, no rush to cap that base.

He isn't willing to concede the point. Ample ideas have been presented for any reasonable person, so let's just let him go on about his business.


I keep trying to not respond, but I can't help myself! I'm just a gluten for punishment (or I don't know how to let a subject drop is more like it).

We have given a lot of counter points, but he does keep saying the same points over and over again, doesn't he? I love how he is ready and willing to agree to any system that PGI would have to make (and break lore even more and make even less sense) to penalize him if he does FF. Reflecting damage, stopping damage, etc. But he can't be wrong because he isn't doing it intentionally and he hasn't been band for it... (yet)

I'm thinking that maybe I just wasn't being clear enough. However, when I go to make things clear, I notice he has nothing to say in return and jumps on someone else's side of the conversation...

#171 MortVent

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 05:12 PM

Perhaps the best solution -

Any friendly fire within the first ten seconds means you receive no xp or cbills for the entire match regardless of your contribution.

So even if you single handedly take out all the other team you get 0 xp, 0 cbills.


Maybe then he and others will realize they are the ones in the wrong by firing their guns in an unsafe manner that puts other team members at risk.

#172 Auzen

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 06:18 PM

I see two options:

1) "My weapon groups are simple and obvious to set up. I don't need to push the buttons to know what they're going to do."

2) "My weapon groups are complicated. I should spend an extra couple of minutes going to Testing Grounds to set them up and make sure they do what I think they do."

There should be no need for a third possibility, but we'll call it Option C: "I have a poor understanding of where my arm- and torso-mounted weapons typically appear in the list of weapons, and I like to combine this flaw with my strong ability to ignore people who get upset when I shoot them in the back, they should realize that I still play like I'm brand new, so I might as well just launch. Why did the devs waste valuable time making the Testing Grounds anyway, when they could've just used that time to make a 110-ton Mech so that I could put on moar lazars!!?!?"

Good gaming!

Edited by Auzen, 30 September 2013 - 06:22 PM.


#173 Mao of DC

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 10:13 PM

View PostTesunie, on 30 September 2013 - 08:00 AM, said:

Maybe I should mention when I started in the far corner of lower (dock side) river city. I couldn't even turn my mech (Raven) around without bumping into someone. I couldn't move without having to slam on the breaks. I actually ended up having to get a little speed behind me, and then jump over my whole team. Ended up not making it over my whole team, landed on top of an ally, and walking off their head to just get out of start to capture epsilon. Good thing Death From Above is not in the game yet...


But DFA is in the game sorta. It is a mortal lock you did damage to your ally. You just didn't do enough to kill them. Just last week I watched a teammate get a lucky kill with a DFA. Lucky because the enemy had a damaged head and they just happened to land on it and down they went.

Edited by Mao of DC, 30 September 2013 - 10:14 PM.


#174 Sadistic Savior

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 06:48 AM

View PostMortVent, on 30 September 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

Perhaps the best solution -Any friendly fire within the first ten seconds means you receive no xp or cbills for the entire match regardless of your contribution. So even if you single handedly take out all the other team you get 0 xp, 0 cbills.

I am perfectly ok with this solution. But it will not stop me from testing weapons.





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