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How To Hit Fast/lagging Light 'mechs

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#1 Pht

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 11:36 AM

THIS THREAD IS NOT HERE for the discussion of the netcode/hit regstration issues in MWO. It's here to help the truly new players learn "best practices" of targeting in MWO.




There are plenty of more appropriate sub-forums for that topic... where the devs are more likely to notice it.
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This one is here for everyone having a hard time hitting small, fast and/or laggy light mechs (or really any target, but the lights are the hardest to hit).

This is what you do before you make a post on the forums complaining about "lag" and "hit detection."

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The first thing to do, is to break yourself of the habit of attempting to "chase" ANY target with the crosshairs. "Chasing" is not necessary nor is it the best way of using the cross-hairs(reticule).

When you are chasing with the reticule most of your mental "time" and physical skill is used up in the attempt to keep the reticule in the exact spot you want.

Instead of chasing, you should instead put your reticule "ahead of" your target and wait for your target to "move under" your reticule. This will allow you to have time to mentally calculate how long it will take for the weapons you are firing to "get to" your target. Sometimes this can even mean you'll be pulling the trigger *before* your target is actually "under" the reticule; especially with slow-traveling weapons.

If you can learn to do this versus moving targets, versus "chasing," you should find your hit-rate going up noticeably. This really goes for shooting at ANY moving target in this game. It just happens to "go double" against fast lights.

You simply HAVE to break any habits of chasing with the reticule, or you can forget hitting any elusive/laggy light 'mechs with anything other than pure luck shots.

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The second thing:

When you're doing this shot-timing, you will find that you need to very carefully predict where your target is going to be.

The best way I have found of doing this versus light mechs that are moving very quickly and unpredictably is to look at the direction that their legs are facing. The torso will be twisting around and thus can throw you off just that "little bit" as to what direction the 'mech is going.

So look at their legs. This even worked in mechwarrior 4 versus 'mechs that could do '360 torso twisting.

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The third thing:

When a light 'Mech is engaging you specifically as it's main target and attempting to avoid your cross-hairs/field of fire, you NEED to keep them in your "field of fire" the maximum amount of time possible.

In order to do this anywhere where the terrain is even remotely open and your target is attempting to get behind you or circle you or otherwise play the "avoid game," the best tactic is to flip your 'Mech in FULL reverse - this will keep your target in your front firing field longer than if you try to turn and chase with the reticule.

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The fourth thing:

You want your target to be as "still" as possible under your reticule when you pull the trigger.

This means you want to attempt to put the reticule on the target when they are least able to produce unpredictable movement.

With a light 'mech, this is when they are running directly at you or directly away from you. If at ALL possible, this is "when and where" you should be attempting to target them.

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The fifth thing:

Just aim for center of mass if you're having a hard time with a target. Light mechs are "soft enough" that if you're in a well loaded heavy or assault, a good shot anywhere on their torsos should do the job.

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The last thing:

If your target is just obscenely hard to hit, and you're NOT on open ground (say, in an urban setting, for example)... your best bet is to "put your back to the wall" and thus force them to have to chisel through your far-heavier front armor; giving you multiple attempts at being able to shoot them.

Even better is if you can get a friend to "back up to the wall" across from you, and double your chances of hitting a target.

Never underestimate a light 'mech.

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And for the light mech pilots out there: These are things you DO NOT want done to you, so do your best to make these things hard to do. Be unpredictable... NEVER run directly at or away from any target if you can help it. Spend as little time as is possible in their field of fire (this usually means going for the back). In urban settings, NEVER go the same route in a predictable manner.

Edited by Pht, 30 June 2014 - 11:50 AM.


#2 Wascot

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 02:13 PM

...so your wall of text can basically be summed up to "lead your targets." I don't know about you, but this is something any fps player picks up after their first game if they have any modicum of skill or sense. Well maybe not the newer generation of fps gamers with their fancy lag compensation. Back in the day we had to lead hitscan weapons an inch or two from our targets to get a hit...

There's no amount of leading/compensating/etc you can do when hits simply don't register. You know when you hit your target and others do too. Even had my buddy comments on "how did that not hit" when he's spectating me on my mech. So yes when people on the forum complain about "hit detection," chances are their complaints are legitimate as this is a rather common issue.

Sadly this is a case of the simple answer "L2P" being insufficient. Isn't it sad?

#3 Sadistic Savior

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 03:20 PM

View PostWascot, on 22 September 2013 - 02:13 PM, said:

...so your wall of text can basically be summed up to "lead your targets."

LOL

#4 GMAK

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 03:51 PM

I played like 100 hours so far and I never saw anybody lagging. Call your isp.

#5 mailin

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 06:33 PM

Excellent suggestions for those trying to hit lights. I actually welcome this because it will keep me honest. One of my favorite tactics to use in my Spider is that if I see the enemy is in a tightly concentrated ball and there are no stragglers, I will charge into their midst and either run straight through and see who follows me, or stay in there and dance around just a little bit. It is amazing how many times I have gotten enemies to shoot their teammates while trying to hit me. So, if a light does this to you, make sure you know where your friendlies are, otherwise you are doing the light's job for him, and never, ever chase a light if you are considerably slower than him. He will lead you to his buddies and you'll wind up spectating.

You don't see the lag when you're driving, but watch your team mates after dying and you will see examples of what the OP is talking about. My friends and I have talked about this at considerable length, and there is definitely something to the lag shield issue, although it is much, much better than a year ago.

Edited by mailin, 03 October 2013 - 07:43 AM.


#6 Rascula

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 03:34 PM

Good post, with good sensible advice.

Good Job.

#7 Corusmaximus

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 03:52 PM

How about when a spider overheats, shuts down. Pow two gauss to the kisser (30 damage). The spider is still standing, torso now slightly damaged.
Maybe I should have lead the nonmoving target a bit more, hmmm?

#8 travelbug

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 04:49 PM

Regarding number five, because of broken hit boxes I'd rather be aiming for the legs unless the light is cored.

#9 mailin

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 04:51 PM

PGI claims that they have addressed the hitbox issue on several mechs, but they didn't specifically say which ones. All I can say is that I have gotten one-shotted by gauss rifles and other weapons both before and after the latest patch, so I honestly don't know how messed up the hit boxes were or if they still are.

#10 ShinVector

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 05:04 PM

View PostCorusmaximus, on 23 September 2013 - 03:52 PM, said:

How about when a spider overheats, shuts down. Pow two gauss to the kisser (30 damage). The spider is still standing, torso now slightly damaged.
Maybe I should have lead the nonmoving target a bit more, hmmm?


Hmmmm.... Never seen that happen dude.. Referring to ' torso now slightly damaged .'
Gauss should be a hit or miss unless you are saying only 1 Gauss hit.

#11 Corusmaximus

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 05:09 PM

View PostShinVector, on 23 September 2013 - 05:04 PM, said:

Hmmmm.... Never seen that happen dude..


I am not the only one to experience this. Happens a lot, and there are posts about it here on the forums. There are evern some videos.
http://www.twitch.tv...robot/c/2689848

#12 Jin Ma

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 05:17 PM



#13 ShinVector

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 06:18 PM

View PostCorusmaximus, on 23 September 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:


I am not the only one to experience this. Happens a lot, and there are posts about it here on the forums. There are evern some videos.
http://www.twitch.tv...robot/c/2689848


Saw the aimrobot fight with the Spider, did a slow-mo and what I saw:

13:41 - Alpha 35 damage - Hit CT
13:46 - Alpha 35 damage - Miss or not reg. Looks like a miss to me. Shot above the Spider's head.
13:50 - 1 Gauss 15 damage - Hit. Went from 87% to 82%. Suspect it hit the Spider head but paper doll did not update properly.
13:51 - 1 ERPPC 10 damage - Hit. CT went red.
13:52 - 1 ERPPC 10 damage - Hit. Head went orange.
13:54 - 1 Gauss 15 damage - Hit. Left leg as spider was jump jetting.

Spider escapes after this.
Conclusion Spider got really lucky and Aimrobot does miss. Not an issue where the Spider takes less damage.
It is the usually issue where if a Spider does get hit, the damage get spread everywhere.

Edited by ShinVector, 23 September 2013 - 06:18 PM.


#14 MoonDragn

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 07:11 AM

Thanks for some of the tips. I just started playing 2 days ago and I was getting killed often by light mechs. This changed however after reading your tips. Last night while piloting that training atlas a light mech was plinking me from behind. I ran down the ledge I was on and turned around while the light mech got stuck on some boulders for a second, and as he came down I anticipated where he would be and nailed him in the head for my first kill! One shot BOOM! Just a few seconds before our team captured their base too.

#15 Pht

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 12:06 PM

View Posttravelbug, on 23 September 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

Regarding number five, because of broken hit boxes I'd rather be aiming for the legs unless the light is cored.


The basic point is to aim at the easiest part to hit.

View PostCorusmaximus, on 23 September 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:


I am not the only one to experience this. Happens a lot, and there are posts about it here on the forums. There are evern some videos.
http://www.twitch.tv...robot/c/2689848



You might notice that I didn't post that what you're saying doesn't happen.

I'd much prefer to keep this a new-player friendly non-conflict thread. There are plenty of places to discuss the state of the netcode on the forums that the Developers are fare more likely to notice.

Let's let the new players get hooked before we ... introduce them to insanity of the forums, yes? :lol:

Edited by Pht, 29 September 2013 - 12:07 PM.


#16 Nick Makiaveli

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 03:09 PM

View PostWascot, on 22 September 2013 - 02:13 PM, said:

...so your wall of text can basically be summed up to "lead your targets." I don't know about you, but this is something any fps player picks up after their first game if they have any modicum of skill or sense. Well maybe not the newer generation of fps gamers with their fancy lag compensation. Back in the day we had to lead hitscan weapons an inch or two from our targets to get a hit...

There's no amount of leading/compensating/etc you can do when hits simply don't register. You know when you hit your target and others do too. Even had my buddy comments on "how did that not hit" when he's spectating me on my mech. So yes when people on the forum complain about "hit detection," chances are their complaints are legitimate as this is a rather common issue.

Sadly this is a case of the simple answer "L2P" being insufficient. Isn't it sad?


View PostSadistic Savior, on 22 September 2013 - 03:20 PM, said:

LOL


So basically your posts can be summed as you guys like to think you are "leet" players who only lose when the rest of your team ***** up, and you only win when the rest of your team doesn't screw up your awesomeness.

Here's a though, either read the post, or don't comment. If you don't want to actually try and help newbies, why are you even in this section of the forums? There is a reason there isn't a e-peen section......

#17 Arete

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 03:03 AM

View PostCorusmaximus, on 23 September 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:


I am not the only one to experience this. Happens a lot, and there are posts about it here on the forums. There are evern some videos.
http://www.twitch.tv...robot/c/2689848


Ehm... Am I completely mistaken or doesn't all the shots register in that video? It's hard to say with the first salvo on the spider (where AimRobot shuts down), but all the shots after the first one registers and appears to do the right amount of damage. CT is open, one PPC/gauss salvo misses (over the right shoulder), next gauss shot hits CT and makes it go from yellow to dark red (which is correct), then two PPC shots in the head (bringing the head to dark red).

#18 McKillynu

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 02:12 PM

There's probably about half a dozen combat maneuevers you absolutely need to know and will use every match, unless you are running a highly specialised loadout. There's also about a dozen more which are useful in particular but common combat scenarios. The following is a description of one I call the Jackknife which will remove any and all light mechs trying to engage you at close range, something light mechs should never do unless you are isolated and roll with a dedicated support loadout.

The maneuver is three steps and can be used if you are being engaged in a circle of death maneuver by a faster, more agile opponent. I'll reference with the assumption that the mech is moving in a clockwise direction so that when in front he is tracking left to right across your viewport. You as the target are either stationary or moving forward.

Step 1. As the target is moving outside your viewport(to you right) do the following:
  • Hit full reverse
  • Turn left(reverse makes you turn right)
  • Torso twist left
Note: as a light you need to watch for this as you turn to his blind side and move into a figure of eight or, better still, egress as your opponent knows what he is doing and will probably kill you very soon.

If you opponent commits to the CoD then you acquire a nice opportunity at their rear/side armour with them moving almost directly away from you, usually at about a 30 degree vector. This gives you a near perfect shot to finish the engagement. If they survive and continue their CoD move into step two which assumes you are continuing to reverse and turn left but have tracked your target by twisting your torso to the right.

Step 2. As the target moves out of your viewport(to the right) do the following:
  • Turn right
  • Center torso
This will set you up for a very close range shot, if they don't manage to bump into you with them vectoring away from you at a 45 degree angle. You will again have the rear/side of their mech under you reticle. If you don't manage to complete the engagement at this point you move onto step three which is will allow you to set up the maneuver again or egress, depending upon you tactical options.

Step 3. As the target is being tracked from left to right under your reticle after the second shot.
  • Hit full forward
  • Turn right
  • Continue torso twisting right
This step will give you a last shot in the maneuver before starting these steps again. Note, that at this point your opponent is adjusting their CoD vector and is busy dealing with your maneuver and possible terrain which has been brought into play. This will give you about a second or two of initiative to tdecide how to reposition yourself to a more favourable location, preferably around terrain to disrupt your opponent's attack vector.

In terms of targeting light mechs in MWO, I'm finding thermal vision the best option particularly when there is alot terrain and doodads like trees. It also changes your focus from body parts to one big blob to hit the center of. If you time this maneuver correctly then you will have rear torso armour exposed and with two favourable shot opportunities at you opponent's rear and inside(of turning circle) side armour. Your target will either go down or bug rtf out to the other side of the battlefield.

The Jackknife also deals quite well with an opponent that transitions to figure of eights(Fo8) which is always a preferable maneuver for light mechs engaging at short range. The main thing to practice is timing and developing an awareness of your opponents adjustments to maneuvering to get maximum effect. If you want a simple explanation without the precise details then I can simply put it this way. I developed this back in MW4 as a highly refined result of the basic principle of alternating between forward and reverse with left and right turning for a larger mech to defeat the CoD by maximising time under reticle of your opponent. If you just play with that idea, you'll pick up timing opportunities pretty quickly and I want have to suffer observing n0obs in Atlasses getting eviscerated by Jenners and Spiders.

Edit: I should also note that most, if not all, decent combat maneuvers are not really possible to execute with the default keyboard setup. If you keyboard and mouse it, then reconfigure everything over to the numpad. Or, at least give yourself tha ability to toggle direction and turn and fire weapons and do targetting and use other instruments simultaneously.

Edited by McKillynu, 01 October 2013 - 02:21 PM.


#19 Greyboots

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 02:52 PM

View PostWascot, on 22 September 2013 - 02:13 PM, said:

...so your wall of text can basically be summed up to "lead your targets." I don't know about you, but this is something any fps player picks up after their first game if they have any modicum of skill or sense. Well maybe not the newer generation of fps gamers with their fancy lag compensation. Back in the day we had to lead hitscan weapons an inch or two from our targets to get a hit...

There's no amount of leading/compensating/etc you can do when hits simply don't register. You know when you hit your target and others do too. Even had my buddy comments on "how did that not hit" when he's spectating me on my mech. So yes when people on the forum complain about "hit detection," chances are their complaints are legitimate as this is a rather common issue.

Sadly this is a case of the simple answer "L2P" being insufficient. Isn't it sad?


While spectating one day, there was a guy waving his crosshairs all over the screen and hit almost nothing unless it was huge. Then he complained about hit boxes and targeting and so forth when clearly neither of these were the issue. He wasn't a raving ***** either. He was clear, concise, polite and genuinely concerned that a game he was liking was broken beyond belief.

He was relieved to receive this sort of information. To get hints to build up his skill level in the game.

These sorts of threads serve a genuine purpose and should be left unchallenged in this manner. If you have a different tactic? Add it to the pile for them to try out to be sure.

As a light pilot the only thing I'll say is do NOT walk straight backwards. It's easy enough to stay behind you by walking backwards too. And I'm faster than you so I can zigzag with your torso twists and just bide my time for the right moment to pull the trigger and torso you out. The backwards figure-8 pattern is usually what keeps you alive long enough for help to arrive and drive me off or kill me (tho I AM reasonably new and the good players will still smash me if I get too cocky).

The BEST defence against lights is simply to never be alone. I'm small and squishy. I'm hard to hit but when I get hit it hurts. With 3 guys all looking in my direction and throwing damage I usually won't hang around too awful long. That's just tempting fate because everyone gets lucky occasionally.

#20 Pht

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 04:17 PM

View PostMcKillynu, on 01 October 2013 - 02:12 PM, said:

There's probably about half a dozen combat maneuevers you absolutely need to know and will use every match, unless you are running a highly specialised loadout. There's also about a dozen more which are useful in particular but common combat scenarios. The following is a description of one I call the Jackknife which will remove any and all light mechs trying to engage you at close range, something light mechs should never do unless you are isolated and roll with a dedicated support loadout.

The maneuver is three steps and can be used if you are being engaged in a circle of death maneuver by a faster, more agile opponent. I'll reference with the assumption that the mech is moving in a clockwise direction so that when in front he is tracking left to right across your viewport. You as the target are either stationary or moving forward.

Step 1. As the target is moving outside your viewport(to you right) do the following:
  • Hit full reverse
  • Turn left(reverse makes you turn right)
  • Torso twist left
Note: as a light you need to watch for this as you turn to his blind side and move into a figure of eight or, better still, egress as your opponent knows what he is doing and will probably kill you very soon.




This is what I did for a few years... and it does not work versus veteran light pilots and encourages the bad habit of chasing your target with the reticule.

Quote

If you opponent commits to the CoD then you acquire a nice opportunity at their rear/side armour with them moving almost directly away from you,...


Uh ... no. A fast manuverable light with a halfway decent pilot can pull the circle so tight that they're literally almost "stepping on the heels" of your 'Mech.

The best you can hope for is a chance to chase after a decent 'light pilot with the reticule when trying to turn faster "inside the circle," (even turning the opposite direction as you're saying should be done) than they can run around you.

A 'mech that's not manuverable and fast enough to outright chase a light 'mech will NOT be able to out-turn a light that's circling it tightly. Light 'mechs are BUILT to be the best at this sort of manuever.

In fact, even a light 'mech will have a hard time doing what you reccomend here, simply because your target will be moving laterally across your field of fire.

When doing this your target will simply never be "stable" enough under your reticule for you most of the time to be able to time a shot instead of chasing the target with the reticule.

When you get good at doing the OP, most light 'mechs won't survive long enough to get behind you. It sets them up to run right under your reticule as they're going for your back.


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Really the only time you should need to turn around is versus a light that *isn't* trying to make circles around you, and is thus staying behind you; and this becomes very obvious very quickly.

Edited by Pht, 01 October 2013 - 04:22 PM.






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