97 replies to this topic

[Audlyn]

Hillslam, on 25 September 2013 - 06:54 AM, said:

lights "deserve" a fix to the current game state which grants them a huge endurance exploit before they deserve getting any new content imo.

But with peoples endless whining and lack of a brain that may think "HUH...maybe we should have a backup plan in case of cap" The speed and hit reg endurance is the only thing that makes them viable now that capping is suicide.

Also of note: I think more players are using the hitreg problem as an excuse other than being a bad shot.
Anybody have thoughts on this statement?

[FupDup]

I remember the days rights after the advent of HSR for ballistics, when lights (and mediums for that matter) were virtually absent from the game. My Catapults were quite often the fastest mechs on my team or even both teams at times. When grinding Trebuchets right before Cats, I was the honorary scout and capper slave for my team. I shudder to think of those days, and to know that they will return.

Edited by FupDup, 25 September 2013 - 07:45 PM.

[PEEFsmash]

Lights are underpowered, but bads think they are overpowered....because they can't aim and can only hit barn-door atlases not moving.

[Corbon Zackery]

FupDup, on 25 September 2013 - 07:24 PM, said:

I remember the days rights after the advent of HSR for ballistics, when lights (and mediums for that matter) were virtually absent from the game. My Catapults were quite often the fastest mechs on my team or even both teams at times. When grinding Trebuchets right before Cats, I was the honorary scout and capper slave for my team. I shudder to think of those days, and to know that they will return.

Yes but then a commando showed up with 3 m pulse and 132kph speed. I'm on vacation in long key florida so save the light bashing till sunday so I don't have to use this stupid touch pad.

thanks

[FupDup]

Corbon Zackery, on 25 September 2013 - 07:54 PM, said:

Yes but then a commando showed up with 3 m pulse and 132kph speed. I'm on vacation in long key florida so save the light bashing till sunday so I don't have to use this stupid touch pad.

thanks

Eh, I wasn't bashing lights. I was just saying that they were extremely rare when hit detection was fully operational--that's practically the opposite of bashing them.

[Profiteer]

There is definitely something wonky with spider hit detection.

Jenner's and Ravens are fine - anyone with a reasonable aim and mash them pretty quickly if they hang around.

Does anyone even use commandos anymore?

[Mycrus]

Jenners, ravens, commandos are okay hitbox wise

Spiders have improved but still have borked hitboxes

I've mastered and elited all variants for all the light chassis...

[dario03]

Profiteer, on 25 September 2013 - 08:01 PM, said:

There is definitely something wonky with spider hit detection.

Jenner's and Ravens are fine - anyone with a reasonable aim and mash them pretty quickly if they hang around.

Does anyone even use commandos anymore?

I've been running a couple to finish mastering them. And I can say they take damage no problem but then again when I had a spider it always registered damage fine too (I still think the spider problem only affected certain people in certain conditions.) However I will say that I think srm hit detection is still screwed. When running one of said commandos I put 3 volleys of 3srm4 into a jenner CT at point blank range (as in he ran straight at me and I fired when he was half a second from hitting me) plus another 6 or so half hits of 3srm4 and a couple glancing hits and it definitely didn't seem to work. When the Jenner first showed up he had yellow armor and even though the paper doll would flash when the battle was over he still had yellow armor and seeing how a Jenner is a walking CT I'm pretty sure I didn't spread the damage out that much. And at the end of the match it said I only did 64 damage and I bet most of that was from my medium laser. IIRC not registering is why the damage was bumped up to 2/missle but I didn't think it was that bad.

Edited by dario03, 25 September 2013 - 08:48 PM.

[Adridos]

PEEFsmash, on 25 September 2013 - 07:38 PM, said:

Lights are underpowered, but bads think they are overpowered....because they can't aim and can only hit barn-door atlases not moving.

Or, you know, play from Europe with 200+ ping and regularly see connected AC/20 shots not even change the color of the armor to orange or red and have to basically play a lottery of how far ahead to shoot in the blank to kill the poor guy with a shot that from their perspective hit only some rocks.

[Corvus Antaka]

Profiteer, on 25 September 2013 - 08:01 PM, said:

Does anyone even use commandos anymore?

I would if tonnage limits where in place. Even a ravens 10 tons on you make a huge difference in fights though.

Spider seems no better than a commando to me for hitboxes though - the commando is just built blockier so straight on it's easier to hit.

The Spider has tons of "Gaps" in between it's legs/torso/arms, etc. LBX will tear a spider up though.

Most non hits are really just slight misses that splash can sometimes make to look like a hit. most likely the guns pinpoint simply went between the legs.

Because ballistcs from the arm vector differently than from the torso the combo of the spiders tiny hitbox and the vectoring system makes the spider slightly harder to connect with. MLaser has a long beam time, a spider moves a lot of distance in 1 second, and again here you see that the laser then only does maybe .2s worth of damage and even that might be spread depending on various geometrical data of the circumstance.

I personally have no problems hitting spiders except that they move around a lot and quickly thus causing a lot of misses.

[Wolfways]

Adridos, on 25 September 2013 - 09:13 PM, said:

Or, you know, play from Europe with 200+ ping and regularly see connected AC/20 shots not even change the color of the armor to orange or red and have to basically play a lottery of how far ahead to shoot in the blank to kill the poor guy with a shot that from their perspective hit only some rocks.

It doesn't have to be 200+ ping. I'm in the UK with 120 ping and today a Jenner ran past me (he didn't know i was there between buildings) with no rear ct armour and red internals. I shot him three times with a group of four ML's at around 50 to 100m (he was running directly away from me) and his paperdoll flashed yet he seemed to not take any damage.
This happens way more than i like.

[Corvus Antaka]

Wolfways, on 25 September 2013 - 10:09 PM, said:

It doesn't have to be 200+ ping. I'm in the UK with 120 ping and today a Jenner ran past me (he didn't know i was there between buildings) with no rear ct armour and red internals. I shot him three times with a group of four ML's at around 50 to 100m (he was running directly away from me) and his paperdoll flashed yet he seemed to not take any damage.
This happens way more than i like.

and you kept your MLaser beam on those red internals for the full duration of 1 second without hitting anything else or missing at all? strafe fights with MLaser can lead to a meager 4-5 dmg in 1 shot if your lucky to 1 locations. a red CT can still take 10-20dmg iirc.

[Wolfways]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 25 September 2013 - 11:18 PM, said:

and you kept your MLaser beam on those red internals for the full duration of 1 second without hitting anything else or missing at all? strafe fights with MLaser can lead to a meager 4-5 dmg in 1 shot if your lucky to 1 locations. a red CT can still take 10-20dmg iirc.

Obviously i can't be absolutely sure that the hits were only on the ct for the whole duration, but definitely for most of it. He was running directly away from me, no zig-zagging or turning at all. Actually he didn't even seem to be running at full speed for a Jenner.
But i chased him in my Catapult and as he was too close to use LRM's i fired a group of four ML's into his rear torso three times. The paperdoll flashed but his ct internals stayed red.

I don't know why some people refuse to believe this happens. I don't know why it happens, i just know it does.
I wasn't playing MWO when consumables were introduced because my wife got so sick of lights soaking up so much damage that she quit and we played something else for a while. Maybe it happens with all weight classes, but i honestly haven't noticed it on anything but lights, so i just assume it has something to do with their speed.
I'm also not trying to get lights nerfed. I have a Raven-3L and intend getting Clan lights (depending on which ones are released).

[culverin]

Mycrus, on 25 September 2013 - 08:30 PM, said:

Jenners, ravens, commandos are okay hitbox wise

Spiders have improved but still have borked hitboxes

I've mastered and elited all variants for all the light chassis...

I'm a Jenner pilot, a decent one I think?

I think lights seem pretty balanced as is.
As long as hit detection gets fixed, I think people will complain less and we'll be ok.


I would like the speed cap removed, but until hit detection is fixed, that won't work.
I'd also like to see jump jets acceleration fixed. There is not enough vertical lift, it just doesn't seem very physics-y right now.
Aside from that, I'm actually quite happy with lights.

[Lupin]

I am a light pilot mainly Jenner or Raven, with a few medium mechs in my selection.

Hitting a moving target in this game is down to a number of factors pings, lag, how good a shot you are and more important knowing how your weapons work.
Lasers are designed to do damage over time and must remain pointed in the same location to do all damage that location, then range of laser.
e.g.
Medium Laster Range 270m to 540m
In realistic terms, expect 100% damage IF laser fired under 270m. Beyond that damage drops of a lot quicker in range than it should.
For this reason pulse laser should be better, but range an issue here too.

To test your designs, learn how it works and skill in using them. Then you have a better chance in battle.

Edited by Lupin, 26 September 2013 - 01:10 AM.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

I'm a light pilot myself and whenever HSR is working well I focus on actually doing my freaking job (scouting, capping, etc). It's not as much fun as killing an Atlas 1000 paper cuts to be honest but I like engaging my brain when I play.

[Errinovar]

Wolfways, on 25 September 2013 - 10:09 PM, said:

It doesn't have to be 200+ ping. I'm in the UK with 120 ping and today a Jenner ran past me (he didn't know i was there between buildings) with no rear ct armour and red internals. I shot him three times with a group of four ML's at around 50 to 100m (he was running directly away from me) and his paperdoll flashed yet he seemed to not take any damage.
This happens way more than i like.

Last night had me wishing I used Fraps to record, I legged a spider and he stopped about 50m away from me and turned to face me. I shot his remaining leg at ~50m stationary with my AC20, the ret turned red, the target info flashed and his remaining leg armor didn't change (it was dark orange internal). He kept blasting me with his large laser, but I had plenty of CT armor, so I lined up my second shot on his other leg in case I made a mistake the first time... dead on hit above the knee again, ret turned red, data flashed, no change.. so I shot that leg with my medium lasers, exactly the same thing. About this time my external armor was red, so I shot the first leg again with both my AC20 and my medium lasers and the exact same flipping results happened. Every shot was close range against a stationary target and I did not miss with lasers or the AC20 yet I did no damage hitting just above the knee. At this point my CT was deep yellow into the internals and one of my team came up and popped him with a large laser at the thigh and killed him..

So yes, something is still really messed up with spiders, but I have noticed it on other lights as well.. hit them right in the back at close range against a stationary target using an AC20, ret turns red, data flashes and no damage... Ive seen it on jenners, spiders, and ravens.. but mostly spiders.

The second thing that no light pilot wants to admit, is that the speed and size of lights function as an armor multiplier. My raven is half again as durable as my CN9-YLW because most laser hits only do a fraction of the damage and missiles are much more easily avoided due to speed and size. Not to mention all the simple missed attacks just due to the speed at which they move. No other mech can run through a group of 5-6 large mechs and survive, and no other mechs can survive the focus fire of the same group of large mechs like a light mech can, and there is something wrong with that. I'm fine with wolf-packs, unheeded lights in general should be dangerous, but seriously right now lights are way more durable than they have any right to be, IMO.

[stjobe]

I posted this in another thread about lights, and it seems to be relevant in this thread as well:

stjobe, on 25 September 2013 - 01:47 AM, said:

I die in my Spiders just as often as I die in my Commandos - no, scratch that, I die *more* in my Spiders than in my Commandos:

COM-3A: 0.42 deaths/match
COM-TDK: 0.44
COM-1D: 0.53

SDR-5D: 0.42 deaths/match
SDR-5K: 0.59

The SDR-5V, COM-2D and COM-1B have too few matches in my stats to make any worthwhile calculations (less than 50 matches each since the new stats started).

stjobe, on 26 September 2013 - 01:41 AM, said:

Same as any light, really. You very seldom get a second chance against good pilots.

As you can tell from the stats I posted a few posts up, I'm not dying less in my Spiders than in my Commandos, so if someone could explain how nobody has any issues with the Commando but the Spider is supposed to be "invincible", have "more armour than an assault", how it "just shrugs off damage", and can "run through the enemy team with impunity", I'd be much obliged. My stats doesn't seem to corroborate these findings - if they were true, the Spiders should really have a much lower deaths per match ratio than the Commando.

Instead the 5K has the highest deaths per match stat of all my lights, and the 5D is on par with the best of my Commandos.

For the record, I've mastered all five Commando variants and two of the Spiders (I just couldn't bear the thought of grinding out the 5V...) and I much prefer the Commando over any other light.

[Windsaw]

Profiteer, on 25 September 2013 - 08:01 PM, said:

There is definitely something wonky with spider hit detection.

Jenner's and Ravens are fine - anyone with a reasonable aim and mash them pretty quickly if they hang around.

Does anyone even use commandos anymore?

I am a regular Commando pilot and I wondered myself.
In the last months I paid special attention on how many other Commandos I see and how they relate to other chassis.

I can definitely say that Commandos are still there even if rare and that Trebuchets for example are even rarer. (my estimate: For every three Commandos I see there are about two Trebs).

That being said I am a little suprised at how many Spiders are out there since in a 1:1 duell IMO the Spider is inferior to the Commando. I guess it is because it is easier to raise your survivability level against a lot of opponents in a Spider than it is in a Commando. Just a tactics difference I guess.

[Ewigan]

stjobe, that was GXP are for

And i had to like Windsaws comment, for justice!