24 replies to this topic

[Lord Ikka]

Listening to the NGNG podcast, can't remember which one, they had Randal Bills (one of the BT creators) on and he mentioned that he would have re-done Clantech if he could. He would have made the Clans more focused on short-range weaponry, with the IS having the range advantage but lacking the power/skill of the Clans' weapons/pilots.Both Cattra Kell and Bombadil also liked this idea; I feel like this would be a good way to change MWO and move away from the game-breaking advantages that the Clans have.

The Clans will have two advantages (in MWO) compared to IS if nothing is changed from TT- weapon damage and weapon range. In TT, they also had more skilled pilots, but that is no advantage/disadvantage as skill in MWO is not something that gives any bonuses. To make the IS competitive with the Clans, while still giving the Clans a useful place and not completely nerfing their tech, we have to remove one of these two advantages.

If we choose to remove weapon damage, we turn the Clans into the lords of sniping. Now, while the Clans do use long-range weapons to attack their enemies, I don't feel that the spirit of the Clans would be met with this change. The Clans are all about the hot rush of individual battle with their opponent. They don't approve of melee fighting with Mechs, but if we take away their range rather than the damage, that might explain their natural aversion to melee- they don't really need it.

Taking away the range bonus of the Clan weapons still gives them a large advantage over the IS weapons- they retain the lower level of slots and tonnage that they originally came with. This has the benefit of not making the Clans so overpowered that the IS is not used on a competitive level, while giving them a clearly definied role/combat style- close-range combat.


Changes
Clan Lasers- Rather than have Clan ER X Laser, we'll just have Clan X Laser. Clan Lasers will retain their old damage value, but will have a 25-33% reduction in range compared to their IS equivalent.

Clan PPC- This weapon drops the ER part of its name. It will retain the increased damage but have a 25-33% reduction in range.

Clan Gauss Rifle- will retain it's lighter tonnage/slots but suffer no reduction in range, just a reduction in rounds per ton in ammunition, it will have 10% less ammo than it's IS equivalent.

ACs- Clans use exclusively Ultra/LBX ACs. By reducing the range on the Ultra weapons by 15-20% (I'm even proposing reducing the range on the IS UAC5) these weapons become the machineguns of the AC family. The LBX weapons can retain their current range- the spread from the weapons makes extended-range fire useless beyond a few hundred meters.

Missiles- Clan LRMs will retain their no minimum range rule, but have their range reduced to 600m. This will reduce the chance of Clan Mechs using anything resembling artillery. Clan SRMs and Clan Streaks will not suffer any change- these are clearly close-combat weapons that the Clans will adore. This does make Clan SRMs/SSRMs clearly superior to IS equivalents, but this is as it should be.



I think these are some pretty simple changes that can really change the way we look at Clans in MWO.The Clans will become close-combat specialists, duelists that use their increased damage and generally faster base speed to close the distance and rip apart their enemies. Thoughts?

[Iron Hyena]

I actually support this idea. The first idea for clan weapons that has made sense so far.

[WarHippy]

Sounds pretty terrible. Anyone using Clan equipment will be dead before they get in range to do anything meaningful.

[Demos]

No, thank you.
There are better ways to keep the spirit of the advantages of ClanTech without making it crushing superior.
E.g. same or only slightly increased damage as IS weapons with longer cd.

So, ClanUAC/LBC could have longer cd to reflect their better ranges and lower tonnage per weapons.
Clan ER Laser would have either same or higher damage (like in TT) as well as better range, but a cd of e.g. 4 sec compared to IS 3 sec.

[Lyoto Machida]

Or increase cooldown times...

If you want to go with the close range lore thing, just don't give them the 2x/3x extended range and make them use their absolute ranges for lasers/ACs.

Keep LRMs at 1000m but no indirect fire.

[Xeno Phalcon]

The clans are a dangerous element to the game if they go by tabletop standards. We are talking UAC20's that weigh 12 tons, LRM20's that weigh 5 tons, SSRM racks that make lights wet themselves on sight, ect ect.

A tabletop conversion would be just bad, however I shudder to think what our piranha overlords will cook up their current track record of ECM, seismic sensor and ghost heat.

[Lyoto Machida]

Xeno Phalcon, on 08 October 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

The clans are a dangerous element to the game if they go by tabletop standards. We are talking UAC20's that weigh 12 tons, LRM20's that weigh 5 tons, SSRM racks that make lights wet themselves on sight, ect ect.

A tabletop conversion would be just bad, however I shudder to think what our piranha overlords will cook up their current track record of ECM, seismic sensor and ghost heat.

Ghost damage, obviously.

[Gaan Cathal]

WarHippy, on 08 October 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

Sounds pretty terrible. Anyone using Clan equipment will be dead before they get in range to do anything meaningful.

This is, of course, why you never see mechs ingame with AC/20s

[Lyoto Machida]

Gaan Cathal, on 08 October 2013 - 01:48 PM, said:

This is, of course, why you never see mechs ingame with AC/20s

Why would you use AC20s when you can use PPC/Gauss instead?

[Lord Ikka]

The point would be not to really "nerf" the Clans' obvious advantages, but to give the IS a slight in-game advantage. The Clans, in canon, were handicapped by one major thing: their honor system. Their honor system did not allow for focus fire (unless the custom was broken) and it did not place a high value on tactics like ambushes.

We can't translate their codes of dueling in-game, and anyone who says that we can is mistaken- it's simply not possible to do in a MMO that has tons of people who don't know any of the backstory. Thus we need some slight way of making the Clans less overpowered than they are in TT. My idea was to take their culture of dueling and then focus on it- most "duels" in history aren't fought at long-range, so focusing them for short-range would make logical lore sense.

I understand that it is both non-canon and could give the IS a decent advantage on certain maps- but that is the price we're going to have to pay to balance a game-breaking technology. In my suggestion, the Clans would retain all of their tech's increased damage- and to a degree coolness- but lose out on the extreme range they had. Rather than give Clantech all the advantages it just gives them most.

WarHippy, on 08 October 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

Sounds pretty terrible. Anyone using Clan equipment will be dead before they get in range to do anything meaningful.

Yes, because MWO never has brawls anymore, we all are able to kill everyone before they hit the 500m mark. The range disadvantage I suggested is not so severe that the Clan pilots would automatically get killed before they are able to hit. It just would allow IS pilots the option of doing some damage before the Clan players get into their "blow faces off" range.

Demos, on 08 October 2013 - 08:30 AM, said:

No, thank you.
There are better ways to keep the spirit of the advantages of ClanTech without making it crushing superior.
E.g. same or only slightly increased damage as IS weapons with longer cd.

So, ClanUAC/LBC could have longer cd to reflect their better ranges and lower tonnage per weapons.
Clan ER Laser would have either same or higher damage (like in TT) as well as better range, but a cd of e.g. 4 sec compared to IS 3 sec.

I'm not opposed to increased cooldowns, I just don't think it will have quite the balancing effect that those that propose it want.

[Butane9000]

My idea for Clan lasers

IS Medium Pulse Laser - 180M / 360M - 6 Dmg - 5 Heat - 2 Tons
IS Medium Laser - 270M / 540M - 5 Dmg - 4 Heat - 1 Ton

Clan Medium Laser - 225M / 450M - 6 Dmg - 5 Heat - 1 Ton
Clan Medium Pulse Laser - 150M / 300M - 7.5 Dmg - 6 Heat - 2 Tons

IS Large laser - 450M / 900M - 9 Dmg - 7 Heat - 5 Tons
IS Laser Pulse Laser - 300M / 600M - 10.6 Dmg - 8.5 Heat - 7 Tons
IS ER Large laser - 675M / 1350M - 9 Dmg - 8.5 Heat - 5 Tons

Clan Large Laser - 375M / 750M - 11 Dmg - 9 Heat - 5 Tons
Clan Large Pulse laser - 250M / 500M - 12 Dmg - 10 Heat - 7 Tons
Clan ER Large Laser - 560M / 1120M - 11 Dmg - 10 Heat - 5 Tons

It's not perfect. But other then range/heat/damage balancing their's only tonnage to fiddle with and we don't want too stark a difference between the technologies.

[WarHippy]

Gaan Cathal, on 08 October 2013 - 01:48 PM, said:

This is, of course, why you never see mechs ingame with AC/20s

Yes, we do see them, but they also often have other weapons that allow them to get there as well as other people on the team that can lay down cover fire. With the OPs suggestion not only would the Clan AC/20 have a 15-20% shorter range, but all Clan weapons would have anywhere from from 15-40% less range. The Clan mechs will be getting rained on by lrm fire for 400m before they can even get in range to use theirs let alone get within 216m to take full advantage of their AC/20s. It is a stupid idea.

[Vassago Rain]

But clan warfare, as established by 30 years of fluff, is based around extreme ranges. They even think you're a barbarian if you try and wrestle with their robots.

[Lord Ikka]

@Butane9000- Clan tonnage and crit slots are all less- you can't put them back up to IS tonnage/slots otherwise you'll invalidate the stock Clan Mechs. That's the same reason PGI hasn't messed with any tonnage/slots in MWO- you'll screw up stock Mech loadouts.

@ WarHippy- You seem to think that LRMs are extremely deadly at 600m+, which hasn't proven to be the case in MWO. The only Clan weapon that gets a 40% reduction in range is LRMs- because they are basically better than streaks (more missiles/damage) at steak ranges, everything else is 33% or less. Sure, the Clan UAC20 would be shorter ranged than it's IS equivalent, but it's also pumping out nearly double the damage. And even with the reduction in range, Clan large lasers and PPCs would have enough range to provide good cover fire- and Clan PPCs don't scale down damage at further than optimal range like IS does. If you think it's a stupid idea, fine- put up your suggestion to balance then. At least I'm trying to get a discussion going about a possible balance idea, from the game's designer, and rather than actually contribute you're simply complaining.

@Vassago Rain- True in part. Clan lore has always been about ranged combat, not melee. This just takes it from extreme range to close range. You can still have their distaste for melee be a part of it, because their weapons are so damaging that who would even need to use a melee attack at close range.

[WarHippy]

Lord Ikka, on 09 October 2013 - 07:06 AM, said:

@ WarHippy- You seem to think that LRMs are extremely deadly at 600m+, which hasn't proven to be the case in MWO. The only Clan weapon that gets a 40% reduction in range is LRMs- because they are basically better than streaks (more missiles/damage) at steak ranges, everything else is 33% or less. Sure, the Clan UAC20 would be shorter ranged than it's IS equivalent, but it's also pumping out nearly double the damage. And even with the reduction in range, Clan large lasers and PPCs would have enough range to provide good cover fire- and Clan PPCs don't scale down damage at further than optimal range like IS does. If you think it's a stupid idea, fine- put up your suggestion to balance then. At least I'm trying to get a discussion going about a possible balance idea, from the game's designer, and rather than actually contribute you're simply complaining.

600m+ lrms are dangerous currently, but are limited because you can expect return fire from people that also have the same range as you. They balance out that way, but if you change it so one side can't return fire to any great effect the balance is lost. As for clan PPCs not scaling down outside of optimal why have an optimal? Wouldn't that make them more or less range less?

As for coming up with a way to balance them I will have to put some thought into it, but just because I don't have my own option for balancing them does not mean I can't comment on your option that you put in the public realm for discussion.

[Lord Ikka]

600m+ LRMs are only dangerous if you can hold lock, it takes a long time for them to reach that range. This generally requires a spotter that is closer to the enemy Mech than you are. True, you can find areas or portions of different maps that allow you personally see that far, with BAP and modules, but they are not common.The common use for LRMs in MWO is supporting damage on a Mech your teammate is fighting/can see. I'm not saying that LRMs are useless at further than 600m, I'm just saying that incoming fire is not the usual limiting factor of them, cover and terrain is.

Clan PPCs have never scaled their damage outside of optimal range- it's one of the reasons they are so deadly. They can hit you for full damage at their farthest range.

I have no prolem with you commenting, as long as it's constructive. I certainly don't think my ideas are the only ones out there, or are even always good. But simply saying something is a stupid without giving any sort of reasonable explanation why you think that is useless to a discussion.

[Karl Streiger]

Clan Warfare is about reducing the costs of war - a weapon fired at extreme range - that miss can hit something else.

Look at those trials - when they fight near a city or a village - and warrior kido is missing his opponent at 1500m and the gauss bullet hit the hospital in the village - last not least it is a wasted shot - nothing clan warriors like.

So if there weapon is a kind of SnubNoose
for example energy weapons have a 30% of its effective range while increasing the effective range:

clan ER - PPC effective range = 900m max range 1200m
clan ER M Laser effective range 450m max range 600m

They pass there optimal range - and the shot deals no damage -> a kind of self destruct like the LRMs and SRMs.

U AC 20 effective range 450m
U AC 10 effective range 700m
U AC 5 effectiv range 850m
U AC 2 effective range 1000m
even the gauss has a explosive charge that inflict slightly more damage but has a effective range of 1000m but not a single m beyond.

Clan LRMs - have no option for indirect fire - and travel like direct fire weapons on a straight path (maybe with more speed - but for the costs of damage per missile)

[Cybermech]

I have been saying this since the start, the clans won't look like the clans on paper.
Cause if they where then what would be the point in piloting IS mechs.
Expect reducion in overall awesome instant win sauce that the clans are.

[Derring-Do]

I support the OP's premise. Maybe not word for word, but the idea of a "shorter range" clan-tech should be explored.

It seems to make sense with their warrior breeding. Wanting to look their opponents in the eye so-to-speak.

[Fut]

Although I do really like the ideas proposed in by the OP, there is another way to balance the Clans and IS in MWO.
Have the Clans drop with fewer numbers than IS. If it's a 12 vs 8 situation, none of the Clan advancements seem all that game-breaking anymore. The numbers could obviously be tweaked though (maybe 12 vs 6 is a bit more fair... who knows).