75 replies to this topic

[Elder Thorn]

quit the whining guys, this is still in beta and we all know it will be in by launch...

oh... wait.... >.>

[Papaspud]

So I see we have our weekly " I can't shoot, so nerf the lights" thread. I just say, go pilot a light a few games, then come back and tell us just how OP they are. Bounce off of people with 0 damage???? You must be playing a different game. My lights take damage bumping into people, or going over small hills. Spiders don't count- they are definitely broke and the hit boxes need fixed.

What the OP wants, is the EASY WIN@ button.... stop in front of me so I can shoot you. If you don't stop to let me shoot... well then OP!!!!

Yes, let's go back to dragon bowling, then the poo would really hit the fan .

Edited by Papaspud, 05 October 2013 - 10:18 PM.

[xMEPHISTOx]

Papaspud, on 05 October 2013 - 10:15 PM, said:

So I see we have our weekly " I can't shoot, so nerf the lights" thread. I just say, go pilot a light a few games, then come back and tell us just how OP they are.

Yes, let's go back to dragon bowling, then the poo would really hit the fan .

The re-addition of collisions has nothing to do with lights in my case but I do want collisions back on, was very upset with them removing that feature when it was just the dragon that was bugged. Instead of fixing the dragon bug they got lazy and simply removed collisions.
I hate mechs walking through my mech (thus slowing me down or preventing me from avoiding enemy fire) in a match and thus have to shoot them myself to simulate collision damage, which is a pain in the ***.
I play lights on occasion...they are not OP however when in group w/3 other lights it does sometimes feel that way.
Go back to dragon bowling? EH? Collisions being on or off has nothing to do with the dragon unless they never fixed the bug that caused that particular problem.

[Johnny Reb]

I doubt it. If it happened, the elite/smart lights would never go thru a brawl. New lights would fall down and basically be shot on site!

[R Razor]

Mehlan, on 05 October 2013 - 06:19 PM, said:

and where, pray tell, are these posts of light pilots screaming about assaults?

All one need do is search for your posts Mehlan, you're probably one of the biggest mouths on here when it comes to defending lights (especially spiders).

[Deathz Jester]

Papaspud, on 05 October 2013 - 10:15 PM, said:

So I see we have our weekly " I can't shoot, so nerf the lights" thread. I just say, go pilot a light a few games, then come back and tell us just how OP they are. Bounce off of people with 0 damage???? You must be playing a different game. My lights take damage bumping into people, or going over small hills. Spiders don't count- they are definitely broke and the hit boxes need fixed.

What the OP wants, is the EASY WIN@ button.... stop in front of me so I can shoot you. If you don't stop to let me shoot... well then OP!!!!

Yes, let's go back to dragon bowling, then the poo would really hit the fan .

Well 90% of the people I encounter in matches are stupid enough to hold still while firing, thus letting me net easy cockpit shots.


And I'd love to have knockdowns back, so we could do this.

Ah the good old days when wreckless light pilots didn't pay attention and would get knocked down. And when you could torment Devs ingame.

[R Razor]

Papaspud, on 05 October 2013 - 10:15 PM, said:

So I see we have our weekly " I can't shoot, so nerf the lights" thread. I just say, go pilot a light a few games, then come back and tell us just how OP they are. Bounce off of people with 0 damage???? You must be playing a different game. My lights take damage bumping into people, or going over small hills. Spiders don't count- they are definitely broke and the hit boxes need fixed.

What the OP wants, is the EASY WIN@ button.... stop in front of me so I can shoot you. If you don't stop to let me shoot... well then OP!!!!

Yes, let's go back to dragon bowling, then the poo would really hit the fan .

I don't think he's asking for an easy win button at all..........I do think he's asking for a mechanic that will force light pilots to actually PILOT instead of setting an auto-throttle and mashing fire buttons while rushing through a group of larger mechs and having nothing to inhibit his movement when he runs into one of them.

Both mechs should take damage, nobody is saying the shouldn't, but the days of Jenner / Spider banzai charges would be numbered if some sort of physics model were implemented and people would have to learn to "drive".

It would, at least in theory, also assist in the beginning phases of the match where there is always some *********** not watching where he's going, or more likely, not giving a scrap where he's going, and running right through you jamming you up as well.

[Tincan Nightmare]

I always find it strange when this subject comes up that the advice for people using assaults is to either put your back to a wall or team up with other players. I mean should an assault mech act like an elephant scared of a mouse, running to put something behind them (that a light can't jump up to). If you have to sit in place with a building to your back to force the light to risk getting shot, that sounds like something is a little off. Also, the whole teaming up thing, what happened to equal skilled pilots in a 1 on 1 situation? If assaults have to work in pairs to survive a lone light mech, then again something is off. I don't think knockdowns should return to the game, at least not unless they can ensure that they won't be exploited (such as keeping a mech knocked down until you kill it). I do think that they were a little to harsh in how slow assaults can turn, allowing lights to circle around them at high speed, giving assaults a very narrow window to return fire as the light passes in front of them, especially with lights getting an upcoming buff to movement. Yes, HSR improvements could fix this, but how soon can we expect to see them?

[Taemien]

Tincan Nightmare, on 06 October 2013 - 12:04 AM, said:

I always find it strange when this subject comes up that the advice for people using assaults is to either put your back to a wall or team up with other players. I mean should an assault mech act like an elephant scared of a mouse, running to put something behind them (that a light can't jump up to). If you have to sit in place with a building to your back to force the light to risk getting shot, that sounds like something is a little off. Also, the whole teaming up thing, what happened to equal skilled pilots in a 1 on 1 situation? If assaults have to work in pairs to survive a lone light mech, then again something is off. I don't think knockdowns should return to the game, at least not unless they can ensure that they won't be exploited (such as keeping a mech knocked down until you kill it). I do think that they were a little to harsh in how slow assaults can turn, allowing lights to circle around them at high speed, giving assaults a very narrow window to return fire as the light passes in front of them, especially with lights getting an upcoming buff to movement. Yes, HSR improvements could fix this, but how soon can we expect to see them?

What do you expect a slightly mobile heavy weapons turret to be? Thats what an Assault mech is used for. In Lore, TT, and all iterations of MechWarrior, Assaults have always supported lighter machines.

Have you ever played Planetside 2? An Atlas is very much like a MBT there. They are powerful, large, and can dish out tons of damage. But one sneaky dude on foot can ruin your day if you're caught alone.

In reality the only mechs that should be able to support only themselves is mediums and possibly a few heavies with the speed to pull it off. And thats only because they can pick and choose their engagements. This is for balance reasons too.

What point is it for any other mech to be in the game if an Assault can clean out anything that doesn't equal up to its tonnage? All everyone has to do is take assaults period. It would make every other mech obsolete. This is why one player equals one player so its always fair.

In a perfect game, in a 12v12, tonnage shouldn't matter, unless used skillfully and tactically. If everyone dueled in twelve 1v1s, then the fight should be fair. Currently I think its pretty close to that. When piloting assaults, I don't fear any other single mech. Actually in any mech I fear no other one player by themselves. About 9 times out of 10, I clean their clock. It doesn't matter what I'm piloting, and doesn't matter what they are piloting.

If I'm in an Assault mech and 2 lights engage me. Then yes, I 'should' lose. Its a 2v1 against me. Though in reality, for me anyways, its still an even fight. But I account 15 years of experience to that. For most, it will be a death sentance as it should be. You wouldn't expect to win against 2 other assault mechs. Player = Player.

To give another example. MWLL had BattleArmor. However you couldn't enforce asynchronous teams. So a side with one or more players using BattleArmor had to equal their opponents. They took the same strategy, one player equals one player. So they made the BattleArmor equal a point in terms of damage output. The end result, even though they were more or less useless against mechs and tanks, flamers and machine guns became awesome weapons. Though not infallible, skilled BA could wreck you if you were caught alone. So yes a Mighty Daishi, clan 100ton Omnimech could be brought down low by a single 1ton Elemental BA in MWLL.

Point is, Assault mechs are not infallible. They are not sitting ducks either. At least not unless you make them. They are slow, they are lumbersome. But they do carry a large amount of weapons and armor. But YOU, the PILOT, must make the most of them. Its up to the pilot to cover their weaknesses and bring their strength to bear. The weapons won't fire themselves, and the armor can only do so much.

This is why Assaults are some of the hardest mechs to pilots and really only should be used by skilled hands. If you're continuously getting shot up by single lighter machines on a consistent basis. Its time to trade it in for something lighter. You need more experience, its simple as that.

[Tincan Nightmare]

Taemien, on 06 October 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

What do you expect a slightly mobile heavy weapons turret to be? Thats what an Assault mech is used for. In Lore, TT, and all iterations of MechWarrior, Assaults have always supported lighter machines.

Have you ever played Planetside 2? An Atlas is very much like a MBT there. They are powerful, large, and can dish out tons of damage. But one sneaky dude on foot can ruin your day if you're caught alone.

In reality the only mechs that should be able to support only themselves is mediums and possibly a few heavies with the speed to pull it off. And thats only because they can pick and choose their engagements. This is for balance reasons too.

What point is it for any other mech to be in the game if an Assault can clean out anything that doesn't equal up to its tonnage? All everyone has to do is take assaults period. It would make every other mech obsolete. This is why one player equals one player so its always fair.

In a perfect game, in a 12v12, tonnage shouldn't matter, unless used skillfully and tactically. If everyone dueled in twelve 1v1s, then the fight should be fair. Currently I think its pretty close to that. When piloting assaults, I don't fear any other single mech. Actually in any mech I fear no other one player by themselves. About 9 times out of 10, I clean their clock. It doesn't matter what I'm piloting, and doesn't matter what they are piloting.

If I'm in an Assault mech and 2 lights engage me. Then yes, I 'should' lose. Its a 2v1 against me. Though in reality, for me anyways, its still an even fight. But I account 15 years of experience to that. For most, it will be a death sentance as it should be. You wouldn't expect to win against 2 other assault mechs. Player = Player.

To give another example. MWLL had BattleArmor. However you couldn't enforce asynchronous teams. So a side with one or more players using BattleArmor had to equal their opponents. They took the same strategy, one player equals one player. So they made the BattleArmor equal a point in terms of damage output. The end result, even though they were more or less useless against mechs and tanks, flamers and machine guns became awesome weapons. Though not infallible, skilled BA could wreck you if you were caught alone. So yes a Mighty Daishi, clan 100ton Omnimech could be brought down low by a single 1ton Elemental BA in MWLL.

Point is, Assault mechs are not infallible. They are not sitting ducks either. At least not unless you make them. They are slow, they are lumbersome. But they do carry a large amount of weapons and armor. But YOU, the PILOT, must make the most of them. Its up to the pilot to cover their weaknesses and bring their strength to bear. The weapons won't fire themselves, and the armor can only do so much.

This is why Assaults are some of the hardest mechs to pilots and really only should be used by skilled hands. If you're continuously getting shot up by single lighter machines on a consistent basis. Its time to trade it in for something lighter. You need more experience, its simple as that.

Ok, first this isn't Planetside 2, so I don't care how they do things with their MBT because it doesn't apply here. Also assault mechs are not static turrets. I don't know where this concept came from in MWO, but assault mechs are just that, a heavily armored VEHICLE that assaults the enemy. They have heavy armor to weather the defensive fire to get a breach in an enemies defenses, and pay for this by being slower than other mechs. You want to talk lore, what then is Zeta Battalion of Wolf's Dragoons. It is a battalion of all assault mechs designed to be a heavy attack unit. Assault mechs are all about a shock attack force that carries the day with armor and firepower. They are not static weapon mounts that sit in place.

Also I didn't express an opinion that assaults should be able to solo the enemy team by themselves. I expressed the opinion that most people tell assault pilots facing a light to either bring a friend or go hide in a corner to protect your back. In this instance, when a lone assault is fighting a lone light mech, I expressed the point that it is ridiculous that the assault mech must either call for help or turn into a static turret with its back to a wall to survive. Yes, any mech attacked by multiple enemies should be meat (unless the pilot just pulls off some incredible moves), but assaults should not live in fear of lights.

As far as BA and Elementals, its great that MWLL turned a single suit into what should have been a 5 man point, but showing how that game made a unit far more powerful than it should have been doesn't really advance any points here in MWO where it is an all mech contest.

I know full well that assault mechs are not infallible, since of all the classes in MWO there are the sole one that cannot disengage if put in a bad position. If you don't keep aware of your surroundings and what is unfolding with your team, it is real easy to find yourself out of position and taking fire from the entire enemy team and dying in seconds. I honestly prefer piloting mediums and heavies due to this, the ability to shoot and move. I just don't think they should turn like glaciers to compound this issue.

I do like how your final advice is that if you pilot an assault and are getting killed by lights, switch over to lights. Makes a good case for your argument of how well the balance among mechs is right now.

[Taemien]

Reason I made those points is because I'm not having issues killing lights with my Assault mechs. I own several Atlases and Stalkers. Gauss Rifles, AC20s, SRMs, and Lasers all do wonders. But as I said and you failed to comment about, I have 15 years of experience, I know what I am doing. The reason I said for other players to switch to lighter machines (there is Heavy and Medium classes that work well) is because they are more forgiving. Meaning they won't get stuck out in the middle of nowhere.

I know there are units that focus on Assaults in the Lore. There is also units that focus on lights.

Look up the battle between Cochraine's Goliaths vs the Davion Light Guards RCT during the Fourth Succession War, particularly Operation Rat. The Assaults got hammered by Lights.

And I'll throw this one out there. A dev stated that the Atlas is considered a top tier asset and pretty much endgame. In most MMO terms that means it is the most difficult. But as I've experienced, difficulty to pilot doesn't make inviable, on the contrary you can get some excellent results when used properly. Its about Risk vs Reward. The better pilots can take bigger risks and net bigger rewards.

Heck as good as I am, I'm not the best at it in my group. I have two wingmates that utterly destroy anything they encounter in their Atlases. They do not use the DDC variant. They can easily take on 2-3 light mechs at a time solo. Thats something I have issues doing, but they have done so on a regular basis. They do not see similar results in smaller machines, though not many are their match in a 1v1 fight however.

But all that is rather pointless in the long run. Stay with your team, no matter what weight class you are in. I wouldn't even recommend lights to run solo, but stay in little wolf packs.

[Deathz Jester]

Taemien, on 06 October 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

What do you expect a slightly mobile heavy weapons turret to be? Thats what an Assault mech is used for. In Lore, TT, and all iterations of MechWarrior, Assaults have always supported lighter machines.

Have you ever played Planetside 2? An Atlas is very much like a MBT there. They are powerful, large, and can dish out tons of damage. But one sneaky dude on foot can ruin your day if you're caught alone.

In reality the only mechs that should be able to support only themselves is mediums and possibly a few heavies with the speed to pull it off. And thats only because they can pick and choose their engagements. This is for balance reasons too.

What point is it for any other mech to be in the game if an Assault can clean out anything that doesn't equal up to its tonnage? All everyone has to do is take assaults period. It would make every other mech obsolete. This is why one player equals one player so its always fair.

In a perfect game, in a 12v12, tonnage shouldn't matter, unless used skillfully and tactically. If everyone dueled in twelve 1v1s, then the fight should be fair. Currently I think its pretty close to that. When piloting assaults, I don't fear any other single mech. Actually in any mech I fear no other one player by themselves. About 9 times out of 10, I clean their clock. It doesn't matter what I'm piloting, and doesn't matter what they are piloting.

If I'm in an Assault mech and 2 lights engage me. Then yes, I 'should' lose. Its a 2v1 against me. Though in reality, for me anyways, its still an even fight. But I account 15 years of experience to that. For most, it will be a death sentance as it should be. You wouldn't expect to win against 2 other assault mechs. Player = Player.

To give another example. MWLL had BattleArmor. However you couldn't enforce asynchronous teams. So a side with one or more players using BattleArmor had to equal their opponents. They took the same strategy, one player equals one player. So they made the BattleArmor equal a point in terms of damage output. The end result, even though they were more or less useless against mechs and tanks, flamers and machine guns became awesome weapons. Though not infallible, skilled BA could wreck you if you were caught alone. So yes a Mighty Daishi, clan 100ton Omnimech could be brought down low by a single 1ton Elemental BA in MWLL.

Point is, Assault mechs are not infallible. They are not sitting ducks either. At least not unless you make them. They are slow, they are lumbersome. But they do carry a large amount of weapons and armor. But YOU, the PILOT, must make the most of them. Its up to the pilot to cover their weaknesses and bring their strength to bear. The weapons won't fire themselves, and the armor can only do so much.

This is why Assaults are some of the hardest mechs to pilots and really only should be used by skilled hands. If you're continuously getting shot up by single lighter machines on a consistent basis. Its time to trade it in for something lighter. You need more experience, its simple as that.

Very well said, and I agree for the most part, however [i know this is merely hypothetical] what happens when they add in the later technology, when you've got assault mechs with enough firepower to down several mechs on its own. You start getting into mechs with obscene amounts of weaponry. For example; I dont imagine someone in an Akuma would worry about 1 or 2, or possibly 3, Jenners attacking him. I'd be moderately afraid to jump even a mediocre pilot with that much firepower. Now as it stands I dont have issues jumping mechs in my Jenner, or Spider, but the game feels far from how it should be.

Edited by Iron Harlequin, 06 October 2013 - 03:19 PM.

[Tincan Nightmare]

Taemien, on 06 October 2013 - 02:44 PM, said:

Reason I made those points is because I'm not having issues killing lights with my Assault mechs. I own several Atlases and Stalkers. Gauss Rifles, AC20s, SRMs, and Lasers all do wonders. But as I said and you failed to comment about, I have 15 years of experience, I know what I am doing. The reason I said for other players to switch to lighter machines (there is Heavy and Medium classes that work well) is because they are more forgiving. Meaning they won't get stuck out in the middle of nowhere.

I know there are units that focus on Assaults in the Lore. There is also units that focus on lights.

Look up the battle between Cochraine's Goliaths vs the Davion Light Guards RCT during the Fourth Succession War, particularly Operation Rat. The Assaults got hammered by Lights.

And I'll throw this one out there. A dev stated that the Atlas is considered a top tier asset and pretty much endgame. In most MMO terms that means it is the most difficult. But as I've experienced, difficulty to pilot doesn't make inviable, on the contrary you can get some excellent results when used properly. Its about Risk vs Reward. The better pilots can take bigger risks and net bigger rewards.

Heck as good as I am, I'm not the best at it in my group. I have two wingmates that utterly destroy anything they encounter in their Atlases. They do not use the DDC variant. They can easily take on 2-3 light mechs at a time solo. Thats something I have issues doing, but they have done so on a regular basis. They do not see similar results in smaller machines, though not many are their match in a 1v1 fight however.

But all that is rather pointless in the long run. Stay with your team, no matter what weight class you are in. I wouldn't even recommend lights to run solo, but stay in little wolf packs.

Wow, 15 years of experience, I didn't know MWO had been around that long. Its wonderful that you want to come wave your epeen around and talk about how you and your friends are so awesome and just trash everyone you face. Just good for you (golf clap). I do wonder if you can understand what the hell I am typing though, as I am not saying that assaults should be an instant win button that slaughters the enemy team. I was making the point that every time someone has an issue with a light versus assault situation, the advice invariably thrown out is 'put your back to a wall' and 'don't play alone'. Yes, your absolutely right that no one should run around solo, but that doesn't mean that at times it still doesn't happen despite the best efforts of the player. If in that situation the only advice is run and hide or call for help otherwise the light kills you, then that is an issue, especially if assaults are the 'endgame' of MWO. Of course you are such an elite and super pilot that this doesn't matter to you, as you kill entire lances single handedly. Oh, and look up Mercer Ravannion and his 'horde' light mech tactics and how well that worked for him in the lore, or the TR3025 listing for the Atlas that says a lone Atlas can kill an entire battalion of Stingers. I am not asking for that, nor saying it would be good for the game, though I don't think a lone Stinger killing an Atlas the majority of the time is a good alternative. Oh, and here is the fight you were talking about.
'At the outbreak of the 4th Succession War, the unit was the target of a planetary assault while garrisoning St. Andre on August 20th, 3028. The attacking Davion Light Guards were scattered because of heavy Aerospace fighter cover and their 2nd Battalion was unable to land.^[3]
The Goliaths pushed the Light Guards' 1st Battalion out of position by forcing the mixed light and medium ‘Mechs to stay away from their longer-ranged weapons. The command company of the Goliaths was attacked from the rear by a reinforced (double-sized) company of Light Guard 'Mechs. Delta Company, led by Captain Andrew Redburn, hot-dropped behind the Goliaths' lines and attacked the larger 'Mechs from the rear.
The Goliaths, armed with primarily long-range weapons, were unable to fight back effectively when the lighter 'Mechs closed to within short-range. Colonel Cochraine was killed when Captain Redburn resorted to a Death from Above attack while two lances worth of his troops concentrated fire on the stubborn Assault 'Mech.^[4]
The Goliaths fell into disarray and the Guards' 1st Battalion pushed into the battle line leading to the destruction of Cochraine’s Goliaths.' So the Goliaths were handicapped because a Golitath only carries a PPC and 2 LRM racks suited only for long range, were attacked from the rear, and had 2 whole lances shooting their commanders mech. Yep lights in lore are just terrible to behold. But thank you for your advice, the posters that come on here and assume everyone is beneath them and there level of skill and condescend are just invaluable to MWO and its advancement.

[dario03]

Iron Harlequin, on 06 October 2013 - 03:19 PM, said:

Very well said, and I agree for the most part, however [i know this is merely hypothetical] what happens when they add in the later technology, when you've got assault mechs with enough firepower to down several mechs on its own. You start getting into mechs with obscene amounts of weaponry. For example; I dont imagine someone in an Akuma would worry about 1 or 2, or possibly 3, Jenners attacking him. I'd be moderately afraid to jump even a mediocre pilot with that much firepower. Now as it stands I dont have issues jumping mechs in my Jenner, or Spider, but the game feels far from how it should be.

Well of course they wouldn't worry, that is Akuma and he will teach you the meaning of pain.

[CrashieJ]

Iron Harlequin, on 06 October 2013 - 03:19 PM, said:

Very well said, and I agree for the most part, however [i know this is merely hypothetical] what happens when they add in the later technology, when you've got assault mechs with enough firepower to down several mechs on its own. You start getting into mechs with obscene amounts of weaponry. For example; I dont imagine someone in an Akuma would worry about 1 or 2, or possibly 3, Jenners attacking him. I'd be moderately afraid to jump even a mediocre pilot with that much firepower. Now as it stands I dont have issues jumping mechs in my Jenner, or Spider, but the game feels far from how it should be.

figure that Akuma will be retrofitted with

3 Streak SRM6
3 of the same Laser weapons
1 Ballistics weapon of choice

lets see how fast Light pilots whine

[Taemien]

Iron Harlequin, on 06 October 2013 - 03:19 PM, said:

Very well said, and I agree for the most part, however [i know this is merely hypothetical] what happens when they add in the later technology, when you've got assault mechs with enough firepower to down several mechs on its own. You start getting into mechs with obscene amounts of weaponry. For example; I dont imagine someone in an Akuma would worry about 1 or 2, or possibly 3, Jenners attacking him. I'd be moderately afraid to jump even a mediocre pilot with that much firepower. Now as it stands I dont have issues jumping mechs in my Jenner, or Spider, but the game feels far from how it should be.

That's an interesting question. But seeing how unorthodox measures (as in not used in previous games) are used to balance things in MWO, it might not be all doom and gloom. Though admittedly this is beyond the scope of this thread. I'm personally taking a wait and see approach.

Though advanced weapons will also be avilable for smaller mechs as well. I'd love to see Light ACs and MRMs myself, both weapon systems would work very well on Medium mechs for example where heavier LRMs and normal ACs do not. And they have the speed to get those weapons to bear. But we've got some time before those are in.

Tincan Nightmare, on 06 October 2013 - 03:19 PM, said:

Wow, 15 years of experience, I didn't know MWO had been around that long. Its wonderful that you want to come wave your epeen around and talk about how you and your friends are so awesome and just trash everyone you face. Just good for you (golf clap). I do wonder if you can understand what the hell I am typing though, as I am not saying that assaults should be an instant win button that slaughters the enemy team. I was making the point that every time someone has an issue with a light versus assault situation, the advice invariably thrown out is 'put your back to a wall' and 'don't play alone'. Yes, your absolutely right that no one should run around solo, but that doesn't mean that at times it still doesn't happen despite the best efforts of the player. If in that situation the only advice is run and hide or call for help otherwise the light kills you, then that is an issue, especially if assaults are the 'endgame' of MWO. Of course you are such an elite and super pilot that this doesn't matter to you, as you kill entire lances single handedly. Oh, and look up Mercer Ravannion and his 'horde' light mech tactics and how well that worked for him in the lore, or the TR3025 listing for the Atlas that says a lone Atlas can kill an entire battalion of Stingers. I am not asking for that, nor saying it would be good for the game, though I don't think a lone Stinger killing an Atlas the majority of the time is a good alternative. Oh, and here is the fight you were talking about.
'At the outbreak of the 4th Succession War, the unit was the target of a planetary assault while garrisoning St. Andre on August 20th, 3028. The attacking Davion Light Guards were scattered because of heavy Aerospace fighter cover and their 2nd Battalion was unable to land.^[3]
The Goliaths pushed the Light Guards' 1st Battalion out of position by forcing the mixed light and medium ‘Mechs to stay away from their longer-ranged weapons. The command company of the Goliaths was attacked from the rear by a reinforced (double-sized) company of Light Guard 'Mechs. Delta Company, led by Captain Andrew Redburn, hot-dropped behind the Goliaths' lines and attacked the larger 'Mechs from the rear.
The Goliaths, armed with primarily long-range weapons, were unable to fight back effectively when the lighter 'Mechs closed to within short-range. Colonel Cochraine was killed when Captain Redburn resorted to a Death from Above attack while two lances worth of his troops concentrated fire on the stubborn Assault 'Mech.^[4]
The Goliaths fell into disarray and the Guards' 1st Battalion pushed into the battle line leading to the destruction of Cochraine’s Goliaths.' So the Goliaths were handicapped because a Golitath only carries a PPC and 2 LRM racks suited only for long range, were attacked from the rear, and had 2 whole lances shooting their commanders mech. Yep lights in lore are just terrible to behold. But thank you for your advice, the posters that come on here and assume everyone is beneath them and there level of skill and condescend are just invaluable to MWO and its advancement.

Holy mother wall of text. Well I did read what you said despite that, and I can comment on most of it.

First of all, I'm not trashing anyone. The advice I give here is advice I give to my friends and wingmates. Our inexperienced players do pilot lighter machines until they get better and can take on the bigger slower things. Experience in MechWarrior is key. Having it makes you less likely to get balls deep into trouble before you have a chance to react to it. With lighter machines, mistakes can be corrected by simply tucking tail and falling back. With a 45kph Stalker, this isn't as easy or forgiving. You're right that MWO hasn't been out that long. Which means people new to the franchise are suffering when in situations they can not quickly get out of. If they use lighter and faster mechs, they aren't punished as badly. They can go "uh oh, this is bad... running back." where as if they are in an assault mech, they are simply screwed.

The margin for error is small in an assault mech for choosing engagements. This is by design and lore. When you know the game and of course the maps in it. Then you can be more confident in the assault mech as you're least likely to get yourself in a crazy situation. It happens to the best of us, sometimes shtuff happens. But thats MechWarrior, sometimes you were just outmanuevered by a more skilled opponent or one that was paying more attention (more likely). Situational Awareness > Mech Piloting skill. I think we agree on that.

As for your quotation of the battle. The DLG would not have been able to get into position as they did (despite enemy air cover) without being as mobile and fleet as they were. Lets not forget that Delta Company was authorized by the Fox himself for a reason. Light mechs work.


On another note, no one has challenged the fact that a player = a player. If everyone agrees this fact to be true. Then why are we even having this discussion? We know light mechs are hard to kill because of game bugs. We got that. We know those bugs are being worked on. We can't nerf something because of a bug. You fix the bug, you don't work around it. For all we know we might need to buff lights once the bug is fixed which makes all of these sorts of threads obsolete, redundant and just not very useful. Or they might even just fit right on in. Until then, unless a player doesn't equal a player (and I'd like to see the entire reasoning behind it), there's really little point to continue this.

[Shadelen]

They took it out because of the issues it was causing because they didnt have it balanced well with weight but they have said it will be implemented again at a later date when they can do testing to make it right.

In Reality yes a light should be able to beat heavies or assaults.But I dont agree with the fact they can just run into you and just stick to your leg.

No its no the best of two worlds right now but its better than irritations.I much rather them focus on that after they get the promised big projects finally out. I rather them focus having community warefare at its fullest then adding another equation to fix right now.

Edited by Shadelen, 06 October 2013 - 11:01 PM.

[Tincan Nightmare]

Taemien, on 06 October 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

That's an interesting question. But seeing how unorthodox measures (as in not used in previous games) are used to balance things in MWO, it might not be all doom and gloom. Though admittedly this is beyond the scope of this thread. I'm personally taking a wait and see approach.

Though advanced weapons will also be avilable for smaller mechs as well. I'd love to see Light ACs and MRMs myself, both weapon systems would work very well on Medium mechs for example where heavier LRMs and normal ACs do not. And they have the speed to get those weapons to bear. But we've got some time before those are in.



Holy mother wall of text. Well I did read what you said despite that, and I can comment on most of it.

First of all, I'm not trashing anyone. The advice I give here is advice I give to my friends and wingmates. Our inexperienced players do pilot lighter machines until they get better and can take on the bigger slower things. Experience in MechWarrior is key. Having it makes you less likely to get balls deep into trouble before you have a chance to react to it. With lighter machines, mistakes can be corrected by simply tucking tail and falling back. With a 45kph Stalker, this isn't as easy or forgiving. You're right that MWO hasn't been out that long. Which means people new to the franchise are suffering when in situations they can not quickly get out of. If they use lighter and faster mechs, they aren't punished as badly. They can go "uh oh, this is bad... running back." where as if they are in an assault mech, they are simply screwed.

The margin for error is small in an assault mech for choosing engagements. This is by design and lore. When you know the game and of course the maps in it. Then you can be more confident in the assault mech as you're least likely to get yourself in a crazy situation. It happens to the best of us, sometimes shtuff happens. But thats MechWarrior, sometimes you were just outmanuevered by a more skilled opponent or one that was paying more attention (more likely). Situational Awareness > Mech Piloting skill. I think we agree on that.

As for your quotation of the battle. The DLG would not have been able to get into position as they did (despite enemy air cover) without being as mobile and fleet as they were. Lets not forget that Delta Company was authorized by the Fox himself for a reason. Light mechs work.


On another note, no one has challenged the fact that a player = a player. If everyone agrees this fact to be true. Then why are we even having this discussion? We know light mechs are hard to kill because of game bugs. We got that. We know those bugs are being worked on. We can't nerf something because of a bug. You fix the bug, you don't work around it. For all we know we might need to buff lights once the bug is fixed which makes all of these sorts of threads obsolete, redundant and just not very useful. Or they might even just fit right on in. Until then, unless a player doesn't equal a player (and I'd like to see the entire reasoning behind it), there's really little point to continue this.

Ugh your driving me crazy. You keep coming back with posts explaining how to play, assuming that I (or anyone else you disagree with) doesn't have a clue, followed by how well you do in the game to further support your gaming expertise. Go back and read my first post in this thread. I stated that improvements to HSR could probably solve a lot of the issues players have with light mechs, only questioning when this would occur. You talk about how critical it is to choose the right time and place to commit an assault mech, something I absolutely agree with you on, the only issue I raised in my original post was that they shouldn't also be additionally handicapped by turning like a battleship. With no speed to cut and run, assaults once committed have to fight or die. I just don't see why that should also include a penalty so that lights can literally run rings around them. You then try to use the example of the fight with Cochrane's Goliaths to show how lore supports the idea of a light mech as a counter to an assault mech. I posted a quote showing how the fight went, and the only reason the Goliath's lost was because a double strength company was dropped behind them to attack their command company, which consisted of mechs that had all long range weapons, and it still took 2 lances of mechs to bring down Cochrane himself to cause a rout. Would have been a different story entirely if it had been Cochrane's Battlemasters or Cochrane's Victors, mechs that would have devastated the Light Guard in an up close fight. I am all for waiting to see what fixes to HSR bring to the game, and the effect it has on the mech classes, but again who knows when this will happen.

[Taemien]

Tincan Nightmare, on 06 October 2013 - 11:33 PM, said:

Ugh your driving me crazy. You keep coming back with posts explaining how to play, assuming that I (or anyone else you disagree with) doesn't have a clue, followed by how well you do in the game to further support your gaming expertise. Go back and read my first post in this thread. I stated that improvements to HSR could probably solve a lot of the issues players have with light mechs, only questioning when this would occur. You talk about how critical it is to choose the right time and place to commit an assault mech, something I absolutely agree with you on, the only issue I raised in my original post was that they shouldn't also be additionally handicapped by turning like a battleship. With no speed to cut and run, assaults once committed have to fight or die. I just don't see why that should also include a penalty so that lights can literally run rings around them. You then try to use the example of the fight with Cochrane's Goliaths to show how lore supports the idea of a light mech as a counter to an assault mech. I posted a quote showing how the fight went, and the only reason the Goliath's lost was because a double strength company was dropped behind them to attack their command company, which consisted of mechs that had all long range weapons, and it still took 2 lances of mechs to bring down Cochrane himself to cause a rout. Would have been a different story entirely if it had been Cochrane's Battlemasters or Cochrane's Victors, mechs that would have devastated the Light Guard in an up close fight. I am all for waiting to see what fixes to HSR bring to the game, and the effect it has on the mech classes, but again who knows when this will happen.

Look dude, the only reason an assault gets torn up by 2-3 lights or mediums, or heavies, or other assaults is because the pilot was either A. Incompetent, or B. Made a mistake. So logic dictates that experience can fix both of those. In addition, PGI has explained that the Atlas (specifically) is a top tier endgame asset. So if you go by other iterations of those terms in other games (whether you agree with them or not), means they are the most difficult to use.

The proverbial issue you and many others have commented on, where assaults once committed have to fight or die is a reality. It is also by design because Assault mechs have 1. The Armor to take such a beating. 2. The weaponry to clean house, and 3. Should they have a competent pilot, should be able to see it through barring bad luck.

There's nothing you can do if you go tunnel and meet a company of angry mechs. Assault, Heavy, Medium, or Lights will get toasted in that scenario. Thats a tactical mistake. It happens. There's no fixing it. Its not football where you can call a time out. But thats not the situation you are talking about.

The one you are speaking of is a little less dire. Its where most of the team is going left and you (and I don't mean you specifically so you can stop being defensive) decide to squirrelly and go right to flank. Not a bad idea in most cases. Not a bad idea until the opponent sends a wolfpack of 2 Jenners plus a Raven.

Thats the situation you are complaining about or rather have a concern over. Personally I call it a tactical error on the side of the assault mech. I would have used a lighter machine to do the same thing JUST for that reason. For some reason you call that unacceptable. I don't agree. Assault mechs are used to well, Assault. They should be there posing a defensive line while punching a hole in the line of the opponents. Not sneaking around taking pot shots. In reality I believe that is a waste of tonnage.

Flanking in MWLL was typically done by faster machines. Owens, Shadowcats, Pumas, and even Bushwhackers all did well in that role. They were capable of dashing around the enemy team and annihilating their LRM boats and Artillery from behind their lines. It was very rare that heavy mechs, or much less assaults were used in such a role. They could be, but it wasn't often, and definitely on the larger maps and without enemy Aero. That option simply isn't very feasible here. Maybe... Maybe the Awesome 9M with max engine and speed tweak could pull it off (and props to the one who does this lol). But your average 51kph Atlas or Stalker isn't.

I'm sorry you feel like you're being told how to play. But from my experiences in this game and the sort of complaints I see on these forums about some of the littlest things that could easily be overcame by adaptation, I feel as if incompetency is a norm. So the only recourse I have is giving advice on how I deal with such issues.

Running with others or putting your back to a wall. Yeah those are noob tactics when dealing with lights in an assault. I don't practice those myself. I simply fight them off. How I do that isn't something I can explain on the forums. I guess I could record it if and whenever it happened, but even then you're not going to get a why I turned right or left when I did. Its just a matter of piloting experience that everyone simply just learns by playing the game.

I think if there were league capabilities (as in we had private no-cbill/xp matches), then this sort of piloting would become more common place. Everyone's sort of just grinding so advanced piloting techniques aren't a focus right now. Its just win or lose and get some numbers to go up right now. But thats just a theory, and not one I'm 100% backing.

As for me quoting years of experience (across the franchise if you haven't figured that out yet), and not losing many 1v1 engagements. That isn't me stroking epeen or anything like that. Its giving you the perspective I have. I'm not a new pilot. I'm not even an average pilot. I'm quoting facts and personal experiences only. Do I think I'm god's gift to this game? Absolutely not. I make dumb mistakes like anyone else. Do I think I'm the best at the game? Again no I don't. I just haven't found the better pilot yet. Course clicking launch and landing with 23 random dudes each time doesn't help with that.

But now we get back to the point of the thread. When HSR is fixed these problems may just all go away for most people. As I said before we might even see lights in a very very bad spot. Most people who hate light pilots are even wagering on that fact. So with that being said, I don't know why this discussion is even going beyond that. We know Collisions can't be fixed because of the HSR, they are very close to being nearly the same issue. Fixing one fixes both probably. Actually fixing HSR gets us one step closer to having collisions fixed.

To put it simply and to be a bit cliche, we can't put the cart before the horse.

After that, as we both agree on. Lights might be in bad shape and would need to be fixed so that collisions wouldn't cripple them further. So here is where we are at and the steps needed to fix them:

Current: Broken Light Gameplay
Step 1: Fix HSR
Step 2: Rebalance Lights
Step 3: Add Collisions
Step 4: Rebalance Lights again
Conclusion: Fixed Light Gameplay

We're not even done with Step 1.

[Sephlock]

Step 1: Add in knockdowns
Step 1.5: IMMEDIATELY alter the website so that any posts containing the word "knockdown" disappear
Step 2: Enjoy as a new golden age of Mechwarrior blossoms.

Step 3: Add in Rotary Autocannons
Step 4: Rake in the money from the inclusion of the above, as people are filled with joy and inspired to spend money on the game

Step 5: Add in Clan mechs
Step 5.5: IMMEDIATELY alter the forums to ban all mentions of "double heat .sinks" and leave everything as it is- PERFECTLY FINE, ASIDE FROM THE NEED FOR TRUE 2.0 DHS.

Step 6: Be amazed at how much better the game is now that things are truly as they should be, and the whiners are all leaving in frustration to plague other games and bring them down.

Step 7: Pour out a beer on the sidewalk for Hawken, which will then be ridden by all the fleeing MW:O whiners, and will go down in flames as a result of the nerfing of everything fun and the complete removal of any missile weapons.

Edited by Sephlock, 07 October 2013 - 12:32 PM.