35 replies to this topic

[ShadowbaneX]

MisterFiveSeven, on 13 October 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

Your condescension is amusing. As is your ignorance.

As is the condescension of others in this thread, I was replying in kind to see if that made an impression, it looks like it did not.

The AC/20 is powerful, yes, 20 damage one spot if you're within 270 meters. As I stated above, for the same tonnage as an AC/20 (14+4) you can have a pair of AC/2s with 6 tons of ammo or 4 tons of ammo and a pair of DHS to help deal with the heat.

Those AC/2s will deal 7.7 DPS to the AC/20s 5 and they can do it from much further away. With good aim people can hit the same location over and over. And if they miss? Big deal it's another 0.5 seconds before you get to fire another volley to correct your aim.

[MisterFiveSeven]

ShadowbaneX, on 13 October 2013 - 06:56 PM, said:

As is the condescension of others in this thread, I was replying in kind to see if that made an impression, it looks like it did not.

The AC/20 is powerful, yes, 20 damage one spot if you're within 270 meters. As I stated above, for the same tonnage as an AC/20 (14+4) you can have a pair of AC/2s with 6 tons of ammo or 4 tons of ammo and a pair of DHS to help deal with the heat.

Those AC/2s will deal 7.7 DPS to the AC/20s 5 and they can do it from much further away. With good aim people can hit the same location over and over. And if they miss? Big deal it's another 0.5 seconds before you get to fire another volley to correct your aim.

ac20 does damage way past 270m. Projectile speed with the ac2 makes hitting specific hitboxes difficult at maximum range.

Two of my best mechs are my ac20 x2 ppc misery and my x3 ac2 founders hunchies. My experience wildly differs from the picture you are trying to paint with DPS and cycle numbers.

Ac2's are decent. Ghost heat on them is utterly stupid and does nothing but punish chain fire, which ghost heat was supposed to encourage. The smoke from chained ac2 fire does nothing; your reticle still shows up fine and i have no trouble returning fire because my target is bracketed by a giant red box.

[Sephlock]

ShadowbaneX, on 13 October 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

You know what would be a good way of getting rid of the Ghost Heat for AC/2s? Is if they double the cool down time. AC/2s cycle WAY too quickly as it is.

L ... LESS dakka?

[ShadowbaneX]

I've had just as much fun from AC/2s as AC/20s. I prefer the 20s, but that's just my play style. People want to get rid of the ghost heat? That's easy, just drop the cooldown rate. DPS drops a bit so it's not too op and you also lose the cooling problem too.

Sephlock, on 13 October 2013 - 07:22 PM, said:

L ... LESS dakka?

Ok, you might have a point there.

Edited by ShadowbaneX, 13 October 2013 - 07:28 PM.

[Zyllos]

ShadowbaneX, on 13 October 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

You know what would be a good way of getting rid of the Ghost Heat for AC/2s? Is if they double the cool down time. AC/2s cycle WAY too quickly as it is.

This is my obvious choice. I would say place it around 0.8 or something like that.

Would reduce overall heat and increase longevity of ammo.

MisterFiveSeven, on 13 October 2013 - 06:50 PM, said:

QFT, but it needs reiterated. DPS is a useless stat. Time spent staring at your target is time for them to pick location hit boxes and gut you like a fish.

I view this more of a flaw of the game.

[Aegic]

Still pulling 300-400+ damage per match w/pugs with my 4x AC/2 JM6-S. Even on Terra Therma. I havent noticed a problem TBH.

[Tincan Nightmare]

MisterFiveSeven, on 13 October 2013 - 07:05 PM, said:

ac20 does damage way past 270m. Projectile speed with the ac2 makes hitting specific hitboxes difficult at maximum range.

Two of my best mechs are my ac20 x2 ppc misery and my x3 ac2 founders hunchies. My experience wildly differs from the picture you are trying to paint with DPS and cycle numbers.

Ac2's are decent. Ghost heat on them is utterly stupid and does nothing but punish chain fire, which ghost heat was supposed to encourage. The smoke from chained ac2 fire does nothing; your reticle still shows up fine and i have no trouble returning fire because my target is bracketed by a giant red box.

So if the AC20 is so superior, why does your hunch not mount a single AC20 instead of 3 AC2's and save 4 tons? You put one in your Misery because you are limited to a single ballistic hardpoint, but in the mech you have 3 hardpoint's you go with 3 AC2's. If pinpoint damage is the auto win, why are you handicapping your Hunchback like that?

[Aegic]

Tincan Nightmare, on 13 October 2013 - 07:35 PM, said:

So if the AC20 is so superior, why does your hunch not mount a single AC20 instead of 3 AC2's and save 4 tons? You put one in your Misery because you are limited to a single ballistic hardpoint, but in the mech you have 3 hardpoint's you go with 3 AC2's. If pinpoint damage is the auto win, why are you handicapping your Hunchback like that?

To be fair, I bet he is firing all 3 simultaneously. If that is the case they will all hit the same point since they are all in the same side. There would be no convergence issues.

[Tincan Nightmare]

Aegic, on 13 October 2013 - 07:49 PM, said:

To be fair, I bet he is firing all 3 simultaneously. If that is the case they will all hit the same point since they are all in the same side. There would be no convergence issues.

Yah but that is still 6 points to 20. That seems to imply that a high DPS is useful, as each triple shot is still less than a single AC20. Especially since your talking about 18 tons to get that 6 points versus the 14 tons for the 20 points.

[ShadowbaneX]

Tincan Nightmare, on 13 October 2013 - 08:12 PM, said:

Yah but that is still 6 points to 20. That seems to imply that a high DPS is useful, as each triple shot is still less than a single AC20. Especially since your talking about 18 tons to get that 6 points versus the 14 tons for the 20 points.

But you get to fire like twice a second. So that's not 6 points to 20 that's 48.

[Sephlock]

Are you people really so dead inside that you don't understand what POSSIBLE reason someone could have for wanting 3x DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA, aside from RAW EFFICIENCY!?

[MisterFiveSeven]

Tincan Nightmare, on 13 October 2013 - 07:35 PM, said:

So if the AC20 is so superior, why does your hunch not mount a single AC20 instead of 3 AC2's and save 4 tons? You put one in your Misery because you are limited to a single ballistic hardpoint, but in the mech you have 3 hardpoint's you go with 3 AC2's. If pinpoint damage is the auto win, why are you handicapping your Hunchback like that?

Because the weapon loadout is only one variable? I understand the point you are trying to make, but my hunchie has ES, FF, and an XL engine (250). I stay at long range because the hunch is a liability in brawling range where location targeting is far easier, and I make sure I'm next to a friendly DDC so I know you are always gonna shoot at him first.

Edit :: The XL makes an ac20 mutually exclusive, and I don't have a single crit left over with this loadout. = no ac20 possible.

Here's what you are missing: I have many mechs that field x1 ac20. I have no mechs that field x1 ac2. That was the point I was trying to make to Shadowbane's comparison. 1 to 1 they are absolutely not equivalent, even though their DPS numbers suggest some type of parity at certain ranges.

Edited by MisterFiveSeven, 14 October 2013 - 03:40 AM.

[Ph30nix]

stinkypuppy, on 13 October 2013 - 06:40 PM, said:

i say keep the ghost heat on them. currently when someone rapid shoots at you, you are basically blinded by explosion effects while getting your CT being annoyingly ripped apart that causes much more rage than a regular death. now imagine that 2 times faster. it would be hell for anyone without a jagermech. i'm sick of these people wanting ballistic buffs despite the fact that they already are the dominant king of the battlefield, play a mech with no ballistic weapons and go against a ballistic mech, chances are you are going to get obliterated. energy vs ballistic is like crossbows vs mini-guns.

this is called suppresion i will admit its alittle extreme in this game but that goes for ALOT of weapons, Chain fired ssrm2's cause a similar effect, as do chain fired lrm5's. Its one of those annoying things but when you factor in this is a team game when your pinned down your supposed to rely on your team to help you out.

the game is SUPPOSED to go like this
LRM's and long range mechs provied distraction/suppresion and soften up targets from range
light mechs are supposed to harras, scout and mark targets for the long range guys
heavy/assaults are supposed to close the distance (under the distraction caused by Long range mechs) and start a brawl
preferably in a position where THEIR long range support can still help and enemies can not.
mediums can either assist brawlers, cover Long range OR attack enemy long range.

saddly how the game currently works the only things working right now are LRM's and brawling.

[Ph30nix]

also if you want to do comparisons, its sort of like comparing a laser( ac/2) to a PPC (ac/20)

if you had to choose ONE of those two types of weapons which would it be? i know what 90% of the playerbase would choose the ppc. That is because instant damage is almost always preferable to sustained damage. My god we had an entire meta revolved around these things.

The AC/2 is NOT some god killer weapon, again i said remove/reduce shake/smoke remove the ghost heat and the ac/2 is a perfect and balanced weapon.

[Amsro]

3xAC/2
Lots of Ammo
Lots of Heat Sinks
Advanced Zoom Module

Enjoy Dakka and Tears

[Tincan Nightmare]

MisterFiveSeven, on 14 October 2013 - 03:36 AM, said:

Because the weapon loadout is only one variable? I understand the point you are trying to make, but my hunchie has ES, FF, and an XL engine (250). I stay at long range because the hunch is a liability in brawling range where location targeting is far easier, and I make sure I'm next to a friendly DDC so I know you are always gonna shoot at him first.

Edit :: The XL makes an ac20 mutually exclusive, and I don't have a single crit left over with this loadout. = no ac20 possible.

Here's what you are missing: I have many mechs that field x1 ac20. I have no mechs that field x1 ac2. That was the point I was trying to make to Shadowbane's comparison. 1 to 1 they are absolutely not equivalent, even though their DPS numbers suggest some type of parity at certain ranges.

Yah I have the same problem on the Illya, using an XL means no AC20 . I do surprisingly use a single AC2, along with 2 LBX and some med. lasers. It sounds crazy, but it is a great harassment tool to plink away with the AC2 at range to shake people up, before closing with the LBX, especially as I put it in the torso slot so it can shoot over terrain the arm mounts can't. And it is surprising to see how much damage even a single AC2 can do when you just hold the trigger down and use its range. This is especially true as many players get tunnel vision when both sides are at range, leaving themselves exposed to line up shots. When you start hitting them, you usually have a few seconds to lay into them before they react and move to cover. And the dakka is just fun .