96 replies to this topic

[Dimento Graven]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 21 October 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

Provide video evidence in controlled circumstances and maybe something useful can come from this discussion. Until that happens this thread is pretty pointless.

What needs to happen is you need to drop with a buddy. He needs a variety of weapons on his mech (some kind of bigger AC like a 10 or 20, a PPC, and a laser). The two of you need to move off to a corner somewhere and he needs to shoot you carefully in various locations with only one weapon at a time. Record this and post the results and suddenly we can have a useful discussion. This method is replicable, so other players can repeat your experiment and attempt to verify the results.

I'll see what I can do, though, it'd be even easier if the Testing Grounds would include the 'mechs in question. I can't ever remember having seen a Jager, or Treb, or even an Awesome in the Testing Grounds... That in of itself is kind of odd now that I think about it...

[Almond Brown]

I think Levi's point about "one weapon at a time" is the key. Most of these Hit box or HSR or whatever complaints "seem" to have the "alpha" moniker attached. And if not a Alpha, more than one weapon was used, even for the big Ballistics. Maybe the HSR doesn't like or can't properly handle a cluster hit that all arrive within a"12 ms" time frame of each other, on any target Mech, with different Mechs designs having better or worse results and why we see changes nearly ever Patch. Always new Mechs intro'd pretty much...

P.S. Obviously pure speculation but that is what we got right.

Edited by Almond Brown, 21 October 2013 - 09:15 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Almond Brown, on 21 October 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

I think Levi's point about "one weapon at a time" is the key. Most of these Hit box or HSR or whatever complaints "seem" to have the "alpha" moniker attached. And if not a Alpha, more than one weapon was used, even for the big Ballistics. Maybe the HSR doesn't like or can't properly handle a cluster hit that all arrive within a"12 ms" time frame of each other, on any target Mech, with different Mechs designs having better or worse results and why we see changes nearly ever Patch. Always new Mechs intro'd pretty much...

P.S. Obviously pure speculation but that is what we got right.

No I got that, and at first that's what I thought too, until I started dropping against someone who had a Cicada with only a single ER PPC equipped, and of course running into the various joke builds of Locusts/Ravens with single AC's, and started appearing to get hit in multiple locations from single rounds...

I did some 'Testing Ground' drops and got Cataphracts in my drops and have found an issue where it appears that the upper portion of the Cataphract's arm appears to be in the SIDE TORSO hit box. Now, this is from the assumption that the Mech Lab anatomy matches the hit box anatomy, which of course, it does not, but I'll create and post the vid demonstrating this 'disconnect'...

Putting the upper ARM in the side torso hit box probably makes the arms more durable, but of course, decreases the corresponding durability in the side torso.

Now if only I could get Trebs, Jagers, et al, in the training ground drops we could figure out what's really going on.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 21 October 2013 - 09:43 AM.

[Motroid]

Dimento Graven, on 20 October 2013 - 06:05 PM, said:

So all you 'nay sayers' are thinking it's ok that if a leg/arm/ct is hit, no where near a side torso, it's ok for the side torso to ALSO get hit too, even though it wasn't actually hit.

You're ok with that?

I mastered every JM6 there is and I'm a big fan of them, but I really don't know what you are talking about...
Besides JM6 with XL-engines are conceptional fails in most cases...
A few STD-engine examples for your help: 2xAC10 and 4 ML or 2xAC5, 4xSSRM and 2 ML or even 2xAC2, 2PPC and 4 ML (FB and really hot) with STD 250-260 engines.

[Dimento Graven]

Anyway this video may explain some of the Cataphract's side torso 'thin-ness' leaving the door open to discuss other 'mech's unexpected in game hit box issues...

Edited by Dimento Graven, 21 October 2013 - 11:59 AM.

[Murphy7]

I don't think the Jaeger's hitboxes are so bad so much as it is an open expectation that Jaegers are (1) front loading their armor and (2) running XL engines, as well as (3) skimping on leg arrmor while stuffing ammo below the knees.

This leads to two very common outcomes - (1) people who can aim, go for the side torso/arm joint, or (2) pull a leg off a Jaeger to see if the pinata is filled with candy.

The torso thing isn't too bad if you torso twist to spread damage when you can, and the natural weakness of the side torso is offset by some excellent combat capabilitites. Positioning, teamwork, and situational awareness can all help make the experience better in Jaeger.

Strangely enough, those same things seem to help with most every mech chassis and variant.

[Barantor]

I'm sure all the Awesome pilots cry for the Jaegermechs......

[Dimento Graven]

Barantor, on 21 October 2013 - 12:43 PM, said:

I'm sure all the Awesome pilots cry for the Jaegermechs......

So your sarcasm indicates you believe it's ok for a hit detection/hit box issue to exist in other 'mechs because the Awesome has problems.

Interesting perspective...

[Barantor]

Dimento Graven, on 21 October 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

So your sarcasm indicates you believe it's ok for a hit detection/hit box issue to exist in other 'mechs because the Awesome has problems.

Interesting perspective...

Yeah totally ok....

If your priorities are on a mech that does really well needing a boost over ALL of the other bugs and problems with this game, then maybe it is you that has the "interesting perspective"?

[Lefty Lucy]

Dimento Graven, on 21 October 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

So your sarcasm indicates you believe it's ok for a hit detection/hit box issue to exist in other 'mechs because the Awesome has problems.

Interesting perspective...

We still have no proof that this hit detection bug exists. If it does exist, it is still not a hit box problem, but a hit detection problem, so it's not really a balance issue.

[Fuggles]

ive never noticed damage transfer issues on my jager,

if you notice that you always die to a side torso, that's because people always aim for the incredibly easy to hit side torso because everyone knows, multiple ballistics = XL engine and easy kill. stand back, and ridge hump and your incredibly hard to hit while maintaining 100% of your ability to send lead down field.

put the exact same load out in a cataphract 4x and you stop getting your torso shot off, you just get cored out in the same amount of time because the CT is giant and you have to stand on your tip-toes to shoot over a rock.

[Krivvan]

Dimento Graven, on 21 October 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

Anyway this video may explain some of the Cataphract's side torso 'thin-ness' leaving the door open to discuss other 'mech's unexpected in game hit box issues...

Those hit boxes are working as intended: http://img15.hosting...cataphract2.png

Doesn't stop the Cataphract from being one of (if not the) best Heavy.

[Wispsy]

if you want this plx fix jenner ct.

[Voidcrafter]

Krivvan, on 22 October 2013 - 02:33 AM, said:

Those hit boxes are working as intended: http://img15.hosting...cataphract2.png

Doesn't stop the Cataphract from being one of (if not the) best Heavy.

But doesn't help it much either for surviving that long
I can hit a cataphract in the desired torso from mile away with any weapon that has that range...
So either I'm amazing(I'm not saying I'm not ) or there's an issue with those...
You can also say the same for the AWS - the hitboxes too are working as intended, though it's intimidating appearance and low endurance make it my first prio in my favourite targets list.
For the record - I love cataphracts - I've played like(looking at stats) 350 games with it since there is a counter with my 3D and about 400 games with my Muromets - still... when I mount my Orion it feels like inpenetrable wall of doom that marches over the foes, crushing them with it's armor. You know - just in comparisson And the difference, if I recall right, is about 4 points of armor on each torso part - doesn't seems that much, does it?
Something is fishy about those stuff...

[Ghogiel]

Dimento Graven, on 21 October 2013 - 06:46 AM, said:

I have no idea what this means. Apparently you're so 'cool' you don't even have to communicate like an adult...

The fallacy of CBT

[Slambot]

Simple answer. The Jaeger is fine. If anything its the most powerful mech ton for ton in the game by far. If it wasn't, then you would be able to go a match without seeing them. But, you can't. In fact, you usually see 2-6 per match. Given the numbers, there has to be a reason. The answer is simple. What other mech can throw out the punishment as hard and fast for so long? Answer: Only a couple CTF which have inferior weapon placement. Face it, bitching about a mech that is out of control powerful won't win you any sympathy.

[Livewyr]

OP. I think you're experiencing a case of:

"Oh that's a Jager,loaded down with Ballistics, 90% chance he's got an XL- I'm going to aim for the Side torso.. less armor for the kill."

It isn't that the ST is huge.. it's about right.. it's that everyone aims for it because it's a pretty good bet that the ST is a kill.

[Kiiyor]

To the OP, I respectfully disagree.

I have 1300ish games in my Yagers, and I adore the living {Scrap} out of them, yet I would not wish their hitboxes changed. The torsos are large, sure, but this is a mech that is near perfectly designed to optimally offload obscene firepower at the moderate expense of survivability.

Even their arms reflect this philosophy - everything getting in the way of maximizing your weapon payload has been removed, because actuators are for dakka-deprived fools and republicans. They have miniscule hitboxes, an amazing firing position, and I could count on one hand the number of times I have had them blown off - even with ludicrously reduced armour. You can keep firing, right to the bitter end. They also allow you to make best use of impressive, impenetrable protection afforded by natures torso protector - a hill.

Can you imagine a Yager with the hitboxes of a Cent? Yagers are near perfectly balanced as they are. Ye shalt leave them be.

[R Razor]

TL/DR: When I run my twin gauss or AC-40 Jag I either have to go too slow or take the chance that I may die before I get to kill 1/2 the enemy with my pin point accuracy sniping ability.

[G4M3R]

I'm sorry OP, everyone worth their salt hits a Jager's side torso first or under it's "arm pit". That's why you feel that you're dying a lot from side torso. Otherwise just use a standard, surprise the heck out of someone attacking you. Because in the last few months I have not seen any Jager use a standard engine unless it's one of those silly MG Jagers.