113 replies to this topic

[Molossian Dog]

I think the template of the Greek city states and the Byzantine Empire are close, but the Holy Roman Empire fits even better.

The HRE had no unifying culture or language, just like the FWL. Of course there were clusters (west of the Rhine, south of the Alps, along the shores of the baltic sea, central germany) of shared language, but for the whole state there was a lingua franca, mostly reserved for educated circles, with little meaning in everyday life.
The greek city states had a unifying culture and a language, while the Byzantine Empire had a common governance and (later on) a common religion.

The individual states making up the HRE are found in the FWL as well. That each had its own way to be run, with some feudal states, trade republics and theocracies is likewise echoed in the Free Worlds where plutocratic corporation regimes and basic sowjet-style democracies stand side by side with parliamentarism and aristocratic republics and everything in between.

The dynamic of how the individual states take part in the greater wars and are expected provide contigents of troops to travel with the Emperor/Captain-General (and frequently argue of how big that contigent has to be) is almost the exact same.

The FWL Parliament finds its counterpart in the Imperial Diet, especially the Permanent Diet.

The dynastic struggles (3014-15 and becoming especially prevalent in post 3067) in which noble families struggle for the right to fill the Captain-Generalcy are a strong connection too.

I don´t say your comparisons are wrong. There are elements of both, the greek city states as well as of the Byzantine Empire in the FWL. I just think the HRE shares a greater number of characteristics with the FWL. In the end it is probably a matter of where you put the emphasis.

Edited by Molossian Dog, 01 February 2014 - 08:57 PM.

[_Comrade_]

Liao is fun to roleplay, your the north Korea of the MechWarrior universe and get to be all dictator like. Plus death commandos.... one of the most feared special forces much units in the entire inner sphere


I'm always a little confused with marik , they a democracy and given the lack of iron fist rule are prone to civil unrest but at the same time they want to recreate the knights of the round table? So democratic with feudal ambitions ???

Edited by Grimwill, 05 March 2014 - 04:27 AM.

[Odanan]

It's important to note that not everyone in Draconis Combine is Japanese, even if they speak Japanese or have Japanese names. The Japanese culture is imposed there - because of the ruling family policies - but you will find all races in DC (the same for the other Houses).

Curious note:
Takashi Kurita has blue eyes and Maximilian Liao is tall, pale and has grey eyes (and his daughters have green and grey eyes). Are they really Japanese and Chinese? probably not as we know today.

[Odanan]

Conclusion: in Battletech the known space is a melting pot.

Houses may have a leading culture and some majority ethnics, but you might find a Muslim Afro-samurai in Kurita, with Japanese name and surname; or a Korean Scotsman in Steiner; or an Indian Frenchman in Liao...

[Adridos]

Odanan, on 05 March 2014 - 05:03 AM, said:

Takashi Kurita has blue eyes and Maximilian Liao is tall, pale and has grey eyes (and his daughters have green and grey eyes). Are they really Japanese and Chinese? probably not as we know today.

Liaos are a funky bunch.

The family originated from a British and Nepalese's son...
And the family went through a branch where the ruler in question married a Calderon.

[Kyone Akashi]

Odanan, on 05 March 2014 - 05:03 AM, said:

It's important to note that not everyone in Draconis Combine is Japanese, even if they speak Japanese or have Japanese names. The Japanese culture is imposed there - because of the ruling family policies - but you will find all races in DC (the same for the other Houses).

Case in point: Minobu Tetsuhara

This is how he looks:



His family's name used to be Hayes, but at some point in time his ancestor Jackson changed it to symbolically cement his allegiance to House Kurita.

A lot of names in the DCMS unit roster and various novels are also decidedly non-Japanese, not to mention the existence of large, organised minorities, first and foremost North Africans (concentrated on the Azami worlds) and Koreans (spread out across the Combine, but well connected). Obviously, the core worlds of the Combine are very much dominated by Orientals, but it's safe to say that cultural identity is held in much higher regard than biological heritage. The Tetsuhara line itself is very much mixed blood - Katana Tormark is said to be about equal parts African and Japanese.

[Craig Steele]

LOL some of these views are of the ruling families rather than the State / culture itself.

I get that to a point as the Successor Lords influence their states to a heavy degree.

There are some good analogies though.

My take would be:

Davion (Fed Suns) - Canon says British / French influences and they have a strong affiliation with their military (think Napoleonic France admiration). Very feudal and massive economic differences. Some Federated Suns systems get an annual merchant ship and are truly back water worlds, more so than most periphary systems. But the rich systems are rich indeed. Think modern USA in an economic sense. Has a strong sense of entitlement / nobility tempered by a strong respect of ability. Eg, a uselss noble will not get demoted because he has good breeding, but he will get supported by a capable adjutant / XO / administator etc.

Kurita (Draconis Combine) - Strong Feudal Japanese culture - warrior code. Honour to the state is more important than anything and key officials are expected to set aside personal honour for the benefit of the Combine, even Co-Ordinators (at least one let an assassin kill him as he knew he was not the best man for the job). Strong efficiency focus, conservation of effort. Some things they do can be seen as extremely brutal by outsiders, but internally Combine see it as an efficiancy. Can be quite insular, if you're not with them you're against them type of view. This has led to instances of what other states call atrocities but in Kurita sense, it's just the business of getting stuff done efficiently.

Liao (Cap Con) - Not the crazies some people paint them as although easy to see why people say so given their last 2 leaders. Socialist culture, support for the State is a strong focus. Different from Kurita in the sense they are more about tangible results than honour. They do what they need to do to to improve the peoples lot in life. For example, the only IS state that provides free education and health care to all citizens. Currently the weakest militarily but in history and the future Liao is a military juggernaught so your point in time determines your view of their military. Canon supports a more Chinese culture.

Marik (Free Worlds League) - Probably the best description has already been offered, Greek City States. Individually they can run their own show, but when faced by an external threat they band together and support each other. They also all 'kick in' for a "greek" army that can support each state in need. Cultural varied as the individual states. I've always thought of them as very Byzantine / ancient greece.

Steiner - (Lyran Commonwealth / Alliance) - Industrial powerhouse, individual's poorer though. Man for man the Lyrans succeed only where material is an option. Someone said Lyran generals ordering lances of Atlas into a mincing machine while they drink champange, that's pretty close to how Steiner approaches all things in the sense that it's material over manpower and success is assumed. Lyrans generally take a long term view of things and make long game plans.

All the successor states have had examples of the other stereo types, there are just as many Kuritan / Davion / Steiner / Marik crazies as Liao and just as many Liao / Kuritan / Marik / Steiner generals as Davion. Pick your point and time and you can argue the merits of all of them.

On the Clans, well I won't go over each of them (for space) but the Warden vs Crusader deserves a mention.

Many people don't realise that Warden or Crusader, the goal is to 'conquer' Terra. The primary difference between the two camps used to be that the Wardens believed the Clans should wait until the IS was threatened and then they charge in to rescue them as was the SLDF's purpose, and in doing so they would reclaim Terra for the Clans.

The Crusaders believed that the Clans must strike before the IS needed them, so as to protect them from within of any threats.

In 3048 when Comstar stumbled on the Clan worlds, the Crusaders argued that the time was approaching when the Warden view would be redundant, that they could not charge in and save the IS unexpectedly if the IS knew they were there. Even worse, the IS was still so misguided there was a real risk they might invade the Clan worlds and destroy what they had built neutrering the Clans ability to do anything in the future.

This was the trigger for all the Warden Clans bar one to vote for Invasion, fear of invasion themselves and invalidation of their purpose.

The Warden view become wrapped around Ulric Kerensky who differed from all other Khans (even those of the Wolf Clan). His agenda was to protect the Inner Spehere from the Clans themselves (some would say that's the definition of a traitor) and he went to extraordinary lengths to do so, even turning his Clan away from Clan space. As the Wolf Clan is in canon the leading proponent of the Warden view, Ulric's vison is often inferred as the Warden way, it is not.

All Warden Clans seek to dominate Terra as the deliverers of Kerensky's true vision (they all have their own view on what that is) but primarily the only difference between a Warden and a Crusader is the Crusader wants to go now in case they are needed and the Warden wants to wait till they are needed. Some Wardens think they can negotiate control over Terra or that it is implied when they come to the rescue but some are very combative about other options too (eg, Steel Vipers)

This is why Ghost Bear, Nova Cat and evenutally Snow Raven (all Wardens) found their way to relocating to IS space, as they believe their task is to be strong until they are needed. The IS worlds are much richer resource wise (and population) and hence offer better opportunities for strength than the Clan worlds.

[Sealawyer]

While I liked your comment Marack, and it is true, I would say that all are good is just as equal a statement. I mean after all, ask a German in 1942 if Germany is evil, or ask a ancient Roman if Rome is evil and the answer will undoubtedly be no. Ask a Pole in 1942 if Germany is evil, or ask a Etruscan if Ancient Rome is evil and the answer will undoubtedly be yes. It's all a Point of View.

[Craig Steele]

Sealawyer, on 07 March 2014 - 03:22 AM, said:

While I liked your comment Marack, and it is true, I would say that all are good is just as equal a statement. I mean after all, ask a German in 1942 if Germany is evil, or ask a ancient Roman if Rome is evil and the answer will undoubtedly be no. Ask a Pole in 1942 if Germany is evil, or ask a Etruscan if Ancient Rome is evil and the answer will undoubtedly be yes. It's all a Point of View.

Also, you cannot have evil without good. I mean whats to compare to right? Its like if theres no Heaven how can there be hell. No Black, where's the white? Got light?, must be dark when its off.

So I guess by default either all society has nothing (neither good nor evil) or both, depending on your point of view.

[Kyone Akashi]

Personally, I would say that the major factions as a whole are clearly not evil (individual characters or sub-factions can be, though), but very much driven by ambition and egoism. The ensuing conflict of interests may result in "evil acts" (starting with wars of aggression), or at the very least said faction being perceived as evil by its opponents.

It is these "shades of grey" that make Battletech such a realistic and interesting setting, I think.

[Craig Steele]

Kyone Akashi, on 07 March 2014 - 08:35 AM, said:

Personally, I would say that the major factions as a whole are clearly not evil (individual characters or sub-factions can be, though), but very much driven by ambition and egoism. The ensuing conflict of interests may result in "evil acts" (starting with wars of aggression), or at the very least said faction being perceived as evil by its opponents.

It is these "shades of grey" that make Battletech such a realistic and interesting setting, I think.

+1

[Ashvins]

Well here's the way I see it,
FRR - rebellious child of House Kurita. Not bad just uppity.
House Davion - Annoying diplomatic do gooders.
House Marik - The heinz 57 of the great houses, a little of everything.
House Liao - It's an Ancient Chinese secret.
House Stiner-

Then House Kurita-


Clearly House Kurita is the best.

[mdmzero0]

All factions are evil- sounds like you've got what it takes to be a mercenary.

Mechs, money, prestige, no politics. And we all know the ladies love a mercenary

[Odanan]

Updated chart:

Edited by Odanan, 29 December 2014 - 12:23 PM.