269 replies to this topic

[Sasha Volkova]

Kunae, on 07 November 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:

Everyone understands this. What you may not understand is that "premades" are ~85% of this game.

I perfectly understand that, but what you dont seem to understand is that E-Sports would be two sides made up of ONLY premades - NO PUGS ALLOWED.
And my previous statement was directed to the tons upon tons of people who QQ'ed that pugs had it rough in MWO.

[Farix]

Diego Angelus, on 10 November 2013 - 07:05 PM, said:

Because more and more Hero mechs are going to come and even now just look misery for example its superior to other variants because of that one hardpoint.

That is only one mech. And if it is really over powered, the officials supervising the e-sport torments will disallow the use of that particular mech. They would not, however, disallow all premium mechs on the bases that you have to pay for them. That is because whether you pay for them or earn them through game play is irrelevant to the e-sport officials.

[Joseph Mallan]

DaZur, on 08 November 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

I've been "doing it wrong" since January 30th, 2012... and enjoying every minute of it.

You are new to this Universe DaZ! I've been having Fun in this Universe since 1986. I won't be told by some shower shoe, How I am supposed to have fun. I find what is fun for me and use that till I am no longer having fun. Also I do not play a game cause it's fun for others, I play it cause it is fun for me. When that stops happening, I go play something else. Kinda why I have been playing Poke'mon more than MW:O or the last few months.

[motorbit]

mwo is stuck deep within the canon trap.
cant balance anything if any deviation over the holy lore provokes a **** storm of the fans of a table top game.
well, that and the fact that getting stuck on every tin can on the ground is something not very popular in e-sport envoirements.

[Colby Boucher]

Macbrea, on 07 November 2013 - 07:19 AM, said:

I am just going to leave this here for you...

Precisely. At least someone can be the voice of reason here...

[Joseph Mallan]

Macbrea, on 07 November 2013 - 07:19 AM, said:

I am just going to leave this here for you...

The Jenner was the 4th highest scoring Mech on the winning side. That is a Good gunner!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 11 November 2013 - 06:25 AM.

[Kunae]

0okami, on 10 November 2013 - 09:47 PM, said:

I perfectly understand that, but what you dont seem to understand is that E-Sports would be two sides made up of ONLY premades - NO PUGS ALLOWED.
And my previous statement was directed to the tons upon tons of people who QQ'ed that pugs had it rough in MWO.

Sorry, I read it as another whine against "the evil premade".

If it were attempted to be made into an "e-sport" there would also necessarily be 1v1's. Solarisesque.

[Vassago Rain]

RichAC, on 10 November 2013 - 07:09 PM, said:

Well LoL has alot of variants and its the biggest e-sport going and very popular. Its hard to pick the "best" mech in MWO, it really depends on the person and build. I don't see why it shouldn't be as popular
I was gonna say assault mode isn't played right by alot of groups,. but then again. all those atlass could just camp on their own base and wait for the action lol.

Because there are clearly dominant, no brainer picks in MWO, and half the mechanics are poorly documented, legacy, or simply not viable until something breaks.

Farix, on 11 November 2013 - 04:09 AM, said:

That is only one mech. And if it is really over powered, the officials supervising the e-sport torments will disallow the use of that particular mech. They would not, however, disallow all premium mechs on the bases that you have to pay for them. That is because whether you pay for them or earn them through game play is irrelevant to the e-sport officials.

This isn't how it works. If your game is so bad you need to mod it to make it worthwhile, no one will bother.

[DaZur]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 November 2013 - 04:41 AM, said:

You are new to this Universe DaZ! I've been having Fun in this Universe since 1986. I won't be told by some shower shoe, How I am supposed to have fun. I find what is fun for me and use that till I am no longer having fun. Also I do not play a game cause it's fun for others, I play it cause it is fun for me. When that stops happening, I go play something else. Kinda why I have been playing Poke'mon more than MW:O or the last few months.

Well, if you're going to add qualifiers to the length of time "having fun"... I'd have to go back to the original MW game in 1989.

[Joseph Mallan]

DaZur, on 11 November 2013 - 06:44 AM, said:

Well, if you're going to add qualifiers to the length of time "having fun"... I'd have to go back to the original MW game in 1989.

Still a youngun! If you started having fun in this Universe only with the Computer game, you missed some glory.

[DaZur]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 November 2013 - 06:54 AM, said:

Still a youngun! If you started having fun in this Universe only with the Computer game, you missed some glory.

I will sheepishly admit to coming late to the party...

I'll have to blame it on being an air-combat fanatic. All that stick-time is to blame on me missing out on a lot of stuff I've had to catch-up with...

[Joseph Mallan]

DaZur, on 11 November 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

I will sheepishly admit to coming late to the party...

I'll have to blame it on being an air-combat fanatic. All that stick-time is to blame on me missing out on a lot of stuff I've had to catch-up with...

There is a bad joke in here that I just won't touch!

[DaZur]

MW:O will never be an e-sport?... Good. I've railed on this fact 4 dozen times and I'll do again here.

An "e-sport" requires one simple thing... equality. The playing field needs to be level with no one side in deficit to the other, each side provided equality of access to assets and resources. Above all... there is a requisite of "balance".

In short... All things being equal.

The underlying problem with Mechwarrior is it inherently never WAS balanced conically. Every derivative of MW has had to make some concession in an attempt to mitigate this reality and all efforts have resulted in a solutions that were at best marginally successful.

To date e-sport competitive players have accepted the minor imbalances in past iterations and found ways to work with or around them... In some cases, going so far as to self-police policy in an attempt to mitigate them for the advancement of the e-sport.

MW:O is no different... Except MW:O is an ever-evolving game that can (and I'll argue has..) be influenced in it's design. This is why IMHO the e-sport minded player base contingency is so very vocal about certain game-play mechanics, balance and other aspects that are specifically germaine to their cause.

There-in lies the rift between e-sport / competitive players and those of us who appreciate the conical diversity and inherent imbalances. In short... The two side cannot coexist without appeasement concessions that both sides have to begrudgingly accept.

To me, too many of the e-sport needs are reliant upon equity and when if comes to the MW universe... To me that means beige / boring concession that mitigates strategic and tactical components of the game in favor of "balance".

[Vassago Rain]

DaZur, on 11 November 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:

MW:O will never be an e-sport?... Good. I've railed on this fact 4 dozen times and I'll do again here.

An "e-sport" requires one simple thing... equality. The playing field needs to be level with no one side in deficit to the other, each side provided equality of access to assets and resources. Above all... there is a requisite of "balance".

In short... All things being equal.

The underlying problem with Mechwarrior is it inherently never WAS balanced conically. Every derivative of MW has had to make some concession in an attempt to mitigate this reality and all efforts have resulted in a solutions that were at best marginally successful.

To date e-sport competitive players have accepted the minor imbalances in past iterations and found ways to work with or around them... In some cases, going so far as to self-police policy in an attempt to mitigate them for the advancement of the e-sport.

MW:O is no different... Except MW:O is an ever-evolving game that can (and I'll argue has..) be influenced in it's design. This is why IMHO the e-sport minded player base contingency is so very vocal about certain game-play mechanics, balance and other aspects that are specifically germaine to their cause.

There-in lies the rift between e-sport / competitive players and those of us who appreciate the conical diversity and inherent imbalances. In short... The two side cannot coexist without appeasement concessions that both sides have to begrudgingly accept.

To me, too many of the e-sport needs are reliant upon equity and when if comes to the MW universe... To me that means beige / boring concession that mitigates strategic and tactical components of the game in favor of "balance".

Not really.
Counter-strike doesn't feature boring LoL mirrored everything, and makes for far better viewing. Same with any random fighting game.

It's just that you need some kind of BALANCE. MWO does not have balance, and setting up third party leagues to force it makes you look silly.

>yeah, you have to take worthless mediums.
>what do you mean WHY!? Because the system can't handle more than two assault mechs.
>no, don't give me that old NO ITEMS! TWO STOCKS! FOX ONLY! FINAL DESTINATION!

[Gremlich Johns]

xMEPHISTOx, on 06 November 2013 - 10:14 PM, said:

If sm3gma, queef and peef can be words than so can Atlai.

****** is a word, found in a proper English dictionary. It means (and there are additional specifics) "the secretion of a sebaceous gl4nd" The spelling "Sm3gma" is just from some "John Thomas" being clever with his 1337 spelling skilz. (PGI's forums do not like the word "g l a n d". How odd)

Atlai can be considered a "word" just as much as pwnd can be. I just find the word Atlai to be incongruous - I think of "Altai" - a mountain range in Russia. Basically, I think people who use Atlai use it just to troll people they know have a button available to push. However, Atlai is unlikely to make it into the "Urban" dictionary as peef and queef (and probably "spooge") have. (BTW, colloquial usage of the latter terms do not make the later valid words yet - they are considered terms, for now.)

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 11 November 2013 - 08:00 AM.

[FupDup]

DaZur, on 11 November 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:

MW:O will never be an e-sport?... Good. I've railed on this fact 4 dozen times and I'll do again here.

An "e-sport" requires one simple thing... equality. The playing field needs to be level with no one side in deficit to the other, each side provided equality of access to assets and resources. Above all... there is a requisite of "balance".

In short... All things being equal.

The underlying problem with Mechwarrior is it inherently never WAS balanced conically. Every derivative of MW has had to make some concession in an attempt to mitigate this reality and all efforts have resulted in a solutions that were at best marginally successful.

To date e-sport competitive players have accepted the minor imbalances in past iterations and found ways to work with or around them... In some cases, going so far as to self-police policy in an attempt to mitigate them for the advancement of the e-sport.

MW:O is no different... Except MW:O is an ever-evolving game that can (and I'll argue has..) be influenced in it's design. This is why IMHO the e-sport minded player base contingency is so very vocal about certain game-play mechanics, balance and other aspects that are specifically germaine to their cause.

There-in lies the rift between e-sport / competitive players and those of us who appreciate the conical diversity and inherent imbalances. In short... The two side cannot coexist without appeasement concessions that both sides have to begrudgingly accept.

To me, too many of the e-sport needs are reliant upon equity and when if comes to the MW universe... To me that means beige / boring concession that mitigates strategic and tactical components of the game in favor of "balance".

Remember that one time, at band camp, when every single match consisted of absolutely nothing more of 4 PPC Stalkers firing off alpha strikes from behind a hidey hill at enemy poptart 2 PPC + Gauss Highlanders and Cataphracts, and even Commandos were forced to pack an ERPPC because they would be one-shotted long before they ever got close enough to use other weapons, and it lasted SIX FREAKING MONTHS?

We already saw what imbalance looked like with pre-nerf PPCs. It sucked popsickles. Let's not go back.

Edited by FupDup, 11 November 2013 - 08:03 AM.

[DaZur]

Vassago Rain, on 11 November 2013 - 07:56 AM, said:

Not really.
Counter-strike doesn't feature boring LoL mirrored everything, and makes for far better viewing. Same with any random fighting game.

It's just that you need some kind of BALANCE. MWO does not have balance, and setting up third party leagues to force it makes you look silly.

In fairness... CS balance is derived from the human aspect. All Players are non-descript human player... the diversity comes from the variety of weapons, which boils down to maybe six viable ones (I've never player but have watched my son play... I've not no itch for twitch) There in lies the linear balance that makes CS work.

As far as self-policing policy... This I don't understand. MW leagues have self-policed since the very first online MW iteration... Why does doing so now become "silly"?

FupDup, on 11 November 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

We already saw what imbalance looked like with pre-nerf PPCs. It sucked popsickles. Let's not go back.

Not sure where you are reading "screw balance" into what I typed but to be clear we do need balance and checks.

That said... parity is a defining pillar of an e-sport and that requirement IMHO... if taken to the degree many members have demanded, I fear diversity will suffer in the name of "balance".

Edited by DaZur, 11 November 2013 - 08:11 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

FupDup, on 11 November 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

Remember that one time, at band camp, when every single match consisted of absolutely nothing more of 4 PPC Stalkers firing off alpha strikes from behind a hidey hill at enemy poptart 2 PPC + Gauss Highlanders and Cataphracts, and even Commandos were forced to pack an ERPPC because they would be one-shotted long before they ever got close enough to use other weapons, and it lasted SIX FREAKING MONTHS?

We already saw what imbalance looked like with pre-nerf PPCs. It sucked popsickles. Let's not go back.

Sorry, no I don't remember this. I have never owned a 4 PPC Stalker or a Commando with a PPC. Thus I have never seen a 24 man 4 PPC StalkerFest.

[FupDup]

DaZur, on 11 November 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

Not sure where you are reading "screw balance" into what I typed but to be clear we do need balance and checks.

It was a hyperbole/exaggeration based on your previous post's statements promoting some basic imbalances.

DaZur, on 11 November 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

That said... parity is a defining pillar of an e-sport and that requirement IMHO... if taken to the degree many members have demanded, I fear diversity will suffer in the name of "balance".

Anyways, I don't care about e-sport or non-sport. I just want to see enemy robots using a wide variety of loadouts and tactics. The overall state is definitely much better now than it has been at any previous point in time, but there are still a few things to be done before we reach enlightenment (i.e. buff Pulse Lasers, Narc, Flamers, etc.).


I'm also not too sure that "balance" leads to reduced diversity (example: the PPC and other metas had muuuuch lower diversity than we have now). I think the issue is that you're interpreting "balance" as meaning that we make everything have the same DPS, HPS, etc. ratios on spreadsheets.

When most forumwarriors talk about "balance," what they/I really mean is "asymmetrical balance" in that each thing comes with strengths and weaknesses. For instance, you've got your Medium Laser, a good weapon for filling up that last little bit of tonnage. You've also got a UAC/5, a bigger gun that can lay down glorious dakka dakka and tear stuff apart. Both are highly useful weapons, and yet they are not just clones of one another. They each perform different functions. Or we can look at the AC/20, which is the ballistic equivalent of a pimpslap in the face, but is rather short ranged and heavy. That's what we're looking for. Pros and cons. Not "make them all have equal DPS" or silly things like that.

Edited by FupDup, 11 November 2013 - 08:20 AM.

[FupDup]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 November 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:

Sorry, no I don't remember this. I have never owned a 4 PPC Stalker or a Commando with a PPC. Thus I have never seen a 24 man 4 PPC StalkerFest.

The PPC meta was mostly during the time of 8v8 (16 players, not 24). The Gauss + 2 PPC poptarts were also probably more common than the Stalkers.