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2/3 Ac2, Why?


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#21 Koniving

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 08:22 PM

View PostBront, on 20 November 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

And apparently Koniving is bad at math

Remember first shot is always at 0 seconds. 10.5 seconds = 8 volleys. 28 shots / 4 = 7 volleys. My math was right. 9 seconds for 7 volleys.

You don't wait 1.5 seconds to fire once. You fire once, then the 1.5 timer starts.

#22 Tesunie

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 08:35 PM

View PostSniperCon, on 20 November 2013 - 07:36 PM, said:

Keep in mind that it's easier to line up shots the greater the delay. It's easier to put 2 AC10 shots in an enemy CT than it is to put 10 AC2 shots in the same place. For this reason bigger ACs can have less DPS per ton but remain balanced with smaller ACs with more DPS per ton.


I have actually found a lot of success with a triple AC2 set up for my Battlemaster. It's best against large, slow targets. I've ripped Atlases appart in short order, with me only having yellow to orange armor after leaving my target with red CT internals. I can't say why I have the success I do with it, but I have had improved success with it since I started playing with it.

I have been seeing the AC2s value as a brawling weapons, not as the sniper weapon it was intended to be. As a brawling weapon, with your target up closer, especially if they are slow, you can keep it on bead for a while. Even long enough to hit reverse and back into cover seems to still do a lot of damage.

I only call it as I see and experience it. Everyone has their own different experiences coupled with their own skills.

#23 Father Tork

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 06:30 AM

View PostVictor Morson, on 20 November 2013 - 04:58 PM, said:

AC2s are absolutely awful (in particular because any more than 3 causes huge Ghost Heat issues) and shouldn't be touched with a ten foot pole.


This is only the case if you Chain fire them, because you're spamming constant shots within the .5 second limit to ghost heat.

If you link fire them, even 3 of them, you'll gain heat, but at a much more reasonable rate. The DPS works out to be the same, the only disadvantage is a little less screen shake for your target.

#24 Bront

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 07:36 AM

View PostKoniving, on 20 November 2013 - 08:22 PM, said:

Remember first shot is always at 0 seconds. 10.5 seconds = 8 volleys. 28 shots / 4 = 7 volleys. My math was right. 9 seconds for 7 volleys.

You don't wait 1.5 seconds to fire once. You fire once, then the 1.5 timer starts.


Doh!

#25 The Lost Boy

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 11:38 AM

View PostKoniving, on 20 November 2013 - 07:07 AM, said:


(This post finds the time to shut down with MW3 [real time TT threshold] and MWO rising threshold with 10 DHS. 2.0 each, as I'm using a 250 engine for this instance. Comes complete with a heat simulator made by someone else to check my math with.)

Spoiler

....Anyone wonder why we needed ghost heat? I think you know now. Pity they didn't fix the root problem, rising thresholds.

Test it in the heat simulator!
http://keikun17.gith...heat_simulator/


REALLY!!??

Has this become WOW!? With DPS battles, and gear check, sucking ALL the fun from the game?

If you want 3 ac 2s great, just say its cause you like firing lots of shells, or if you like th ac 20' say its cause you like REALLY BIG guns. Or if you like the thought of the ppc cause it looks like lightning and sounds cool.

But all this?! Really?!

Cant people just play a game without analyizing it to DEATH?!

Play the loadout you like on the mech you like, cause you like it. Regardless of what the optimal heat DPS, blah blah, {Scrap} statistical nightmare people are breaking it down too.

Have fun. Remember?

#26 Bront

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 12:11 PM

View PostLemming of the BDA, on 21 November 2013 - 11:38 AM, said:

REALLY!!??

Has this become WOW!? With DPS battles, and gear check, sucking ALL the fun from the game?

If you want 3 ac 2s great, just say its cause you like firing lots of shells, or if you like th ac 20' say its cause you like REALLY BIG guns. Or if you like the thought of the ppc cause it looks like lightning and sounds cool.

But all this?! Really?!

Cant people just play a game without analyizing it to DEATH?!

Play the loadout you like on the mech you like, cause you like it. Regardless of what the optimal heat DPS, blah blah, {Scrap} statistical nightmare people are breaking it down too.

Have fun. Remember?

But there's a competitive angle to the game, which means folks will strive to get the most competitive edge out there. So of course folks will break down numbers like this.

Doesn't mean they have to follow it all the time though.

#27 Father Tork

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 12:48 PM

Also, for some people, playing competitively IS how they have fun.

#28 Koniving

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 04:38 PM

View PostLemming of the BDA, on 21 November 2013 - 11:38 AM, said:

Have fun. Remember?


I wouldn't normally care, as I usually run what's considered to be awful rigs for fun. But I hate "ghost heat," and having dug through and learned all of this, it's impossible not to think the 30 threshold prevalent in most of the games is the better solution to what "ghost heat" addresses. In every single situation 30 threshold has better control over boating except in AC/20s, in which case not having 7 shots per ton (it's 5 in tabletop) would solve that combined with the ammo's high price.

But single shot AC/20s don't exist in inner sphere tech for battlemechs -- none of them are stable enough to support it from a lore standpoint. The largest inner sphere autocannon is the Chemjet Gun, a 4 shot burst-fire AC/20 that deals 5 damage per bullet and the "actual" reason for the 270 meter range is "recoil." We don't have recoil. If we had lore-based ACs and recoil we'd never even have to address the issue. Simply if PGI did just a hint of research beyond looking to cash in on hero mechs. Though this is a another topic entirely.

(typo fix.)

I use mechwarrior 3 as the best example as it held true to the 30 threshold. MW2's playstation, expansions, and titanium editions raised it to 40 for an "arcade" feel. MW4 used hardpoint size restrictions to compensate for raising the threshold to 60 and became the worst example of boating in the history of the franchise.

MWO starts you at 40 for 10 SHS. (Ever notice how you can't alpha strike the same with single heatsinks?) You start with 50 with 10 DHS for a 250 engine. That goes to 60 with elites and the same 10 DHS. The average is in the 70s to 80s for threshold. Clan tech once it comes here, will easily reach over 120 threshold. That's 6 ER PPCs fired at the same time without a care in the world or a shutdown without ghost heat. And their ER PPCs do 15 damage each.

I haven't got any faith in ghost heat. It can't keep me from alpha striking 7 ER PPCs from a Battlemaster. How's it going to stop a mech that only does 100% on a single firing?

(My battlemaster goes beyond 400% heat.) It just takes 52 seconds to cool and minor damage. (Don't force start or you die instantly).

Edited by Koniving, 21 November 2013 - 04:49 PM.


#29 Itsalrightwithme

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 04:46 PM

View PostLemming of the BDA, on 21 November 2013 - 11:38 AM, said:

Cant people just play a game without analyizing it to DEATH?!

Play the loadout you like on the mech you like, cause you like it. Regardless of what the optimal heat DPS, blah blah, {Scrap} statistical nightmare people are breaking it down too.

Have fun. Remember?


Can't people just play a game without preaching in the forums?

#30 The Lost Boy

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 11:58 PM

When people have to resort to coding macros to obtain optimal firing for heat etc, something is wrong, and not with the game. The player needs help. Id like to see game changes too, like real double heat sinks, no ghost heat, no 3rd person, a heat scale that was FAR less forgiving with more penalties to firing, movement, chances of ammo kaboom, and chances for shutdown as soon as you start piling the heat on. Then maybe it becomes a THINKING mans shooter. Its leaning on spiraling to the joke WOW has become. A competitive edge in WOW requires multiple other gear/dps programs, putting up with snobby elitist high level guilds/players, and blizzard on top of that. MWO isn't at that point yet. Its up to us players to not let it. The instant gratification junkies who just want the best formula to always win ARE IMHO bringing the game down.

#31 Itsalrightwithme

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 06:39 AM

View PostLemming of the BDA, on 21 November 2013 - 11:58 PM, said:

When people have to resort to coding macros to obtain optimal firing for heat etc, something is wrong, and not with the game. The player needs help. Id like to see game changes too, like real double heat sinks, no ghost heat, no 3rd person, a heat scale that was FAR less forgiving with more penalties to firing, movement, chances of ammo kaboom, and chances for shutdown as soon as you start piling the heat on. Then maybe it becomes a THINKING mans shooter. Its leaning on spiraling to the joke WOW has become. A competitive edge in WOW requires multiple other gear/dps programs, putting up with snobby elitist high level guilds/players, and blizzard on top of that. MWO isn't at that point yet. Its up to us players to not let it. The instant gratification junkies who just want the best formula to always win ARE IMHO bringing the game down.


If you want to argue that the game should not have so much degrees of freedom (no hardpoint size limits, generous heat thresholds), plenty of posts and threads have covered this topic. And thanks to analyses such as those done by Koniving, those arguments are much better presented than if they only appealed to emotion and hand-waving.

If you want to argue that MWO should be a THINKING man's shooter, well, what is analysis but thinking through quantities.

If you want to argue that players shouldn't be tweaking, well, good luck. I personally agree that macros should be banned. But as far as tweaking builds, you can't argue against people who want to improve.

Just so it's clear, I don't like COD and I like the thinking aspects of MWO, it's what has kept my faith in this game.

#32 FerretGR

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 06:52 AM

View Post0Life, on 19 November 2013 - 07:21 PM, said:

So, I have been noticing of late that many builds are using 2-3 AC2, or twin AC5 (instead of an AC10). What is the reasoning behind this, short of a higher rate of fire and possibly slightly greater ammo capacity?


1. Higher ROF, as you point out (as a corollary to this, the higher ROF means higher rate of screen shake)
2. Much greater distance
3. MUCH higher DPS (an AC10 has a DPS of 4, 3xAC2 despite their modest per-round damage have a DPS of 9.99)

ETA: I didn't read the rest of the posts before making mine, so it looks like what I'm saying has been pointed out. Let me add the intimidation factor: there's something about getting pelted at a very high rate with AC2 rounds that forces people back like the larger ACs can't. Maybe it's the amount of screen shake or the rate at which their armor is being peeled back, but I've found my 3xAC2s to be very effective suppression weapons in addition to their role as damage dealers.

View PostLemming of the BDA, on 21 November 2013 - 11:58 PM, said:

When people have to resort to coding macros to obtain optimal firing for heat etc, something is wrong, and not with the game. The player needs help.


Who are you to tell anyone else how to play or enjoy the game? You play it your way and I'll play it mine.

I used to use a macro on my 5xAC2 Jager because it was FUN. I'm allowed to have fun, right?

Edited by FerretGR, 22 November 2013 - 06:57 AM.


#33 Whiteagle

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 06:54 AM

Wait, so my Duel AC2 Blackjack-1DC is now the new Meta?
Da fuq?

#34 Koniving

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 07:05 AM

In most cases, macros sacrificed high precision strikes in favor of patterned spam. Instead of throwing all 12 damage of 6 AC/2s into a single shot, I could throw them into intervals of 0.08 seconds apart which gives me a slightly faster 'single AC/2' firing rate compared to an MG. But what good does that really do me other than scare the target? My damage per second drops from 24 down to maybe 16 or so and goes from 2 spots on a target to 12 different spots.

Lesser damage + wider spread = "should be banned"?

During this video about the first AC/2 penalty, where it was "too high" after PGI finally admitted it (...only for them to make it even worse), the slower firing rate is with the macro. The hyper firing rate is actually with normal fire.

It's time skipped to where I start to fight. Watch the huge difference in firing speeds. My macro was optimized to fire each of the 3 at 0.25 seconds apart for a steady "machine gun" like feel.

Enjoy. That poor Catapult probably wished I kept to the macro.

There's also this 4 AC/2 Jager. At some point I drop the macro and concentrate all my fire into single volleys.

This is my 2 AC/2, 2 AC/5 Jager. I liked the random pattern generated from trying to force the AC/5s to fire faster than they can -- something that doesn't work. A better firing rate can be achieved by simply chain firing both weapons in two separate groups.

It isn't so much the macros. After all we'd still see macro UAC/5s. It's the firing rate of the weapons themselves which are too fast. Macros are used to slow down and weaken weapons to provide optimum heat building results, but still not as slow as 'chain fire' is. We need them simply because the autocannons fire too fast. Do too much damage. Generate too much heat. Far too pinpoint.

Also, my targets actually lived longer with macros in place meaning I could have more fun in what I'm doing. Rather than "shoot, shoot...oh, dead... I didn't even get to... oh well. Look it's another Atlas. Bang.. oh you're dead already. joy... What else is on TV right now?"

View PostWhiteagle, on 22 November 2013 - 06:54 AM, said:

Wait, so my Duel AC2 Blackjack-1DC is now the new Meta?
Da fuq?

Enjoy ze meta! Twin AC/2s! Except the UAC/5s makes a better two weapon combo.

#35 C E Dwyer

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 07:25 AM

ac 10 has a bigger shake that weight and space is the only advantage as ac10 has a cool down of 2.5 ac5 1.5

so dps is better and the alpha will be the same (other weapons not withstanding)

#36 Arctcwolf

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 01:11 AM

For short, 15 minute battles with 12 players, running dual AC5 or triple/quad AC2's make the most sense. for the time u fight, u only run out of ammo once u have killed 10+ enemies on the other side.

Longer matches, or higher numbers will see usage drop somewhat in favor or energy weapons. Also, the majority of our maps have a significant heat focus. ballistics produce less heat, period. lets see how well they do on upcoming moon base where heat wont be an issue for beam or ppc boats.

I see plenty of players using LRM's in the same manner, spamming as much as possible to keep enemies off balance and reticles all over the screen.

Now lets imagine Clan AC2's and AC5's that weigh 1 ton less, have either added damage or range, or are of the Ultra variant that doesnt jam...then we will have this debate again regarding OP

#37 Smitti

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 01:56 AM

Why 3xAC2? Because Dakka.

Because some of us get joy out of sending a storm of high-velocity rounds at your face, cackling maniacally over the rapid hammering while struggling to peer through the haze of smoke and muzzle flashes.

Because grouped 2xAC5 is like a rapid-fire, practically zero-heat PPC.

I personally think that the autocannon are good where they are now. Unfortunately where they are now is often more effective than anything else thanks to the innefectual bandaid fixes to the pinpoint damage problem PPC/gauss/ghost heat nerf bat, so expect ballistics to get hit with the nerf bat soon™

#38 Shade4x

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 02:13 AM

Lots of reasons as menchened. More crit buffers, they use the same ammo, they have a high dps to heat ratio,,, etc, The one other that is worth talking about is the screen shake. An AC 20 will knock your aim, but you can recover and return fire before he fires another round. 3 AC/2's and 2 AC/5's can keep him and most mech's juggled. 90% of the players turn and run when being juggled, because they cannot aim. The AC/5's also allow for a near no-heat weapons group, where you can start spaming those 2 large lasers now. As far as the juggling goes, it is extreamly hard to fire. The worst are alternating AC's, not chain fire, but weapons that have differnt firing speeds and screen shake. Take an Ac/2 and an lbx ac/10 on any build with 2 balistic slots in the same place, and just walk up to a guy and hold down the button. If he's 200 meters away, he will miss half his shots, and most of his damage.Also 2 AC/5's fire perfectly with PPC's while still giving you a good brawling defence.

Remember, 2x AC/5's = UAC/10 with no jams.

#39 Bront

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 06:51 AM

View PostSmittiferous, on 23 November 2013 - 01:56 AM, said:

I personally think that the autocannon are good where they are now. Unfortunately where they are now is often more effective than anything else thanks to the innefectual bandaid fixes to the pinpoint damage problem PPC/gauss/ghost heat nerf bat, so expect ballistics to get hit with the nerf bat soon™

That generally means they aren't in a good place.though. And honestly, if they were to nerf balistics slightly, that would increase the survivability of mechs a bit, which I think many agree would be a good thing, as players get to stay in battles a bit longer.

#40 Nick Makiaveli

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 08:00 AM

View PostLemming of the BDA, on 21 November 2013 - 11:58 PM, said:

When people have to resort to coding macros to obtain optimal firing for heat etc, something is wrong, and not with the game. The player needs help. Id like to see game changes too, like real double heat sinks, no ghost heat, no 3rd person, a heat scale that was FAR less forgiving with more penalties to firing, movement, chances of ammo kaboom, and chances for shutdown as soon as you start piling the heat on. Then maybe it becomes a THINKING mans shooter. Its leaning on spiraling to the joke WOW has become. A competitive edge in WOW requires multiple other gear/dps programs, putting up with snobby elitist high level guilds/players, and blizzard on top of that. MWO isn't at that point yet. Its up to us players to not let it. The instant gratification junkies who just want the best formula to always win ARE IMHO bringing the game down.



2 points.

1. So if we don't play you're way, we are mentally defective and need to seek help? My first thoughts would send a mod or three to the hospital. Get over yourself. Play your way, and let others play their way. It doesn't hurt you in anyway.

2. So you want less theorycrafting, but yet you like the idea that it's a thinking man's game? In the immortal words of the intarwebz, "lol wut?"

Lastly, over at the DHB we have plenty of people who play solely for fun, and plenty who are hard core competitive players. We all get along because events are clearly tagged as one or the other. So don't show up for casual drops if you can't deal with people who use AC/2 builds when AC/5s are clearly superior. By the same token, if you can't handle some one explaining that to you, then don't show up to competitive events. Actually if you can't handle a conversation about superior builds and tactics, you probably aren't DHB material. Constructive criticism isn't a bad thing.





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