120 replies to this topic

[Bront]

Strikes are required to take in 12 mans now. This generally means they're unbalanced. Drop the damage to 20-30, the sweet spot's probably somewhere in there.

[Mechteric]

Bront, on 11 December 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

Strikes are required to take in 12 mans now. This generally means they're unbalanced. Drop the damage to 20-30, the sweet spot's probably somewhere in there.

Lowering damage will just make them useless again. IMO the amount of damage isn't the problem, its that they can be called so many times during the match with not much time between them. If there were a team timer of like 30 seconds that could help.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 11 December 2013 - 10:18 AM.

[Bront]

CapperDeluxe, on 11 December 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

Lowering damage will just make them useless again. IMO the amount of damage isn't the problem, its that they can be called so many times during the match with not much time between them. If there were a team timer of like 30 seconds that could help.

If the damage is high enough, everyone will take them, but not everyone will be able to use them due to time, which will be even more frustrating.

Lowering the damage a bit means they're useful, but they aren't quite the killer weapon they were, so they'll be balanced better with other modules. Folks were using them at 10. 40 means you can kill some mechs fresh with them. 20 is at least hurtful but not a free kill.

Personally, I despise using them because I hate consumables, but I still do in 12 mans.

Edited by Bront, 11 December 2013 - 10:27 AM.

[Mechteric]

Bront, on 11 December 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

If the damage is high enough, everyone will take them, but not everyone will be able to use them due to time, which will be even more frustrating.

I'm sorry but making the argument that each team should be able to deploy a whopping 24 strikes EACH is not a reasonable one to me. Seeing as they are only consumed when used I think it stands to reason that not everyone should be able to use all of their strikes every match. It should be a tactical weapon, not a commodity weapon.

Quote

Folks were using them at 10

Nobody was using them at 10. At least not 12v12s. Maybe noobs used them.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 11 December 2013 - 11:17 AM.

[Bront]

CapperDeluxe, on 11 December 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

I'm sorry but making the argument that each team should be able to deploy a whopping 24 strikes EACH is not a reasonable one to me. Seeing as they are only consumed when used I think it stands to reason that not everyone should be able to use all of their strikes every match. It should be a tactical weapon, not a commodity weapon.

The damage makes it a commodity weapon.

Both solutions have their merits though. I happen to think it does too much damage, regardless of the cooldown though.

[Reubot]

I think that the current air/artillery strike mechanism is badly designed, because it doesn't really have any downsides (except the obvious c-bill cost, but that's outside of the actual gameplay and not relevant to my point).

It is way too easy to plant that smoke, without exposing yourself to enemy fire more than a second, and the gains can be tremendous. Meanwhile the targeted players can do nothing to prevent this, just run away IF they see it.

AS really needs a downside to balance it out, and I would propose a targeting system, where the mech that uses it has to hold a TAG-like laser at the desired position for a certain duration, therefore having to expose himself, and giving the enemy a chance to prevent the AS from being used (this is VERY important).

PS. it ****ing ****** me off that you can't see it coming if you have NV/HV on.

Edited by Reubot, 11 December 2013 - 11:58 AM.

[Sean von Steinike]

Rarely get hit by either and they are great for dispelling a death ball. I think they are fine as is, though, I wouldn't mind seeing it restricted to mechs with a command console, maybe certain other mechs.

[RamsoPanzer]

Where is the problem guys, why so many complaints. Both teams can use them in the same way, so noone has an advantage. We have been for a long time complaining about how useless the modules were, and now that they are good and useful, you want to nerf them. The only thing i would like to have is some other modules as useful as these strikes, so there would be more strategic variety.

Edited by RamsoPanzer, 12 December 2013 - 02:23 AM.

[Piney II]

Sean von Steinike, on 11 December 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

Rarely get hit by either and they are great for dispelling a death ball

That is the primary reason I use arty - scatter the death blob.

[Evil Ed]

Just reduce the damage to aviod instakill of a fresh mech by headshot and it will be fine. I really like how strikes put pressure on slowmoving/camping/blobbing pilots and encourage situational awareness.

Edited by Evil Ed, 12 December 2013 - 05:23 AM.

[Victor Morson]

Today we have a forecast of QQ, followed by a loud and totally unfounded rant. Tomorrow flash flood warnings are in effect for all the tears generated by anyone hit by an artillery strike.

Edited by Victor Morson, 12 December 2013 - 05:17 AM.

[SpiralFace]

Here is the direct reasons why they are effective:

- Most the game currently revolves around "death *******" up and smashing into the opposing team. Big clusters of enemy's are what art strikes and air strikes are a direct counter towards
- EVERYONE trys to play heavy. Not many people are in lights or mediums. If you play lights or mediums, you only get hit by arty / air strikes if you aren't paying attention to your surroundings. (especially when your capping.) Playing heavy means you are driving bricks that half the time can't escape the arty strike even if you do see the smoke.
- No one stay's mobile. Most players hug a piece of terrain and just duck in and out of it rather then running between one piece of terrain to the next (much harder to do.) Making them nice and stationary for the air strikes.

These are issues that compound on themselves that have NOTHING to do with the damage that they do. The game is already taking steps that will see arty strikes less effective.

- Drop weight limits are coming which will make forces much more lighter and nimble, making it much more easy to react to the smoke, and bail if you see it.
- The game is pushing more and more towards "lance" operations and not the "death ball." Arty still counters the death ball, working in more well coordinated 4 mans mitigates its effectiveness when it can hit 5-6 mechs in a single strike.
- new game modes, split lance deployments, and mechs deploying lighter will all have an effect of the mobility game. Thus making a successful arty strike much more difficult to pull off.

The change has not been around yet to see if the long term effects are beneficial.

Personally, I would rather see people adapt to ACCOUNT for the arty strike then justify nerfing it so they can keep their slow boring death ball metta.

[NRP]

SpiralFace, on 12 December 2013 - 06:01 AM, said:

Personally, I would rather see people adapt to ACCOUNT for the arty strike then justify nerfing it so they can keep their slow boring death ball metta.

This will never happen. The people who are inclined to whine on Forums rather than man up and deal with new challenges by exercising some personal initiative have basically admitted they can't adapt to the game, so they want the game adapted to them instead. These are the weakest kind of people imaginable. We can only hope they are always on the enemy team, never on ours.

Edited by NRP, 12 December 2013 - 06:21 AM.

[SpiralFace]

All the more reason to keep it as is.

If people are not willing to adapt to the situations on the field, then they deserve what they get.

What I WILL conceded is that there is something up with the Arty mechanics. Because the massive amount of damage is applied to a single slot if you are directly hit by it picked at random, This causes there to been cases where that one slot is the head and as a result is an instant head cap.

This is a bit busted if that is the case. In the BG arty damage was broken up into 5 point clusters and then randomly distributed on the model. I feel that this game should probably adopt a similar mechanic. That way, you still have a CHANCE of being head capped, but it comes through MULTIPLE damage roll results rather then an unlucky single roll that sees you taking 40 damage to the head.

I don't want to see it to where the head is removed out of the "random damage" areas, but the instant head cap Is always amazingly frustrating when it happens at a semi-frequent rate with the arty strikes.

[Bront]

SpiralFace, on 12 December 2013 - 06:46 AM, said:

This is a bit busted if that is the case. In the BG arty damage was broken up into 5 point clusters and then randomly distributed on the model. I feel that this game should probably adopt a similar mechanic. That way, you still have a CHANCE of being head capped, but it comes through MULTIPLE damage roll results rather then an unlucky single roll that sees you taking 40 damage to the head.

This would fix my biggest objection to the damage being as high as it is.

My biggest complaint about the modules in general though is that they're becoming required equipment on every mech, much like Seismic was when it had a 400m range and worked always. If it's superior to all other options, then it probably needs a nerf. Should it be useful? Yes. Should it be the best option in all situations to have one? No.

I would have no problem if they added a firing mechanic to the marker similar to like an AC2. Small fast moving projectile that lands and starts smoking. It's enough of a nerf that it would make it harder to use, but not enough to prevent it from being useful. Right not, it's kind of lame that you fire it, and smoke appears. A firing animation would offer another way to see it coming, and make it feel a bit more authentic.

I also think they should have different color smoke for Atry vs Air.

Edited by Bront, 12 December 2013 - 07:08 AM.

[3rdworld]

It is a shame that 90% of the people on the forums will never play in a 12 man, and see how totally un-fun it is to see 30 or more a match.

Edited by 3rdworld, 12 December 2013 - 07:40 AM.

[SpiralFace]

Bront, on 12 December 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

My biggest complaint about the modules in general though is that they're becoming required equipment on every mech, much like Seismic was when it had a 400m range and worked always. If it's superior to all other options, then it probably needs a nerf. Should it be useful? Yes. Should it be the best option in all situations to have one? No.

They are becoming required because of the proliferation of the Deathball metta.

Deathballs took the place of High Alpha solos because Ghost heat makes it inefficient for a single mech to one shot any mech anymore, so Deathballs formed as a way of focusing damage on single targets to take them out fast.

Now, Arty strikes are becoming "required" because people still naturally gravitate towards that "deathball" style of play. If the Metta shifted away from that and focused on smaller "strike team" groups like the designers seem to be trying to do, all of a sudden Arty's aren't as powerful as they are now.

Its just part of the naturally shifting metta. Ultimately in a game like this there should be "give and takes" with particular play styles. If people started dropping lighter (which weight limits will ultimately force on them.) or breaking off into more "lance" play the blob play, you will see a drop in the usefulness of Arty's, but until people figure that out, Arty's will remain as useful as they are because of everyone feeling like they need to "ball up."

Arty's being as powerful as they are should encourage a change in tactics, not cry's to keep the same stale style of play every match. I'm all for ironing out the kinks in the mechanics that see's lucky "head caps" happen as frequently as they seem to do, but I think Arty's should still remain as potent as they are as they are a natural "hard counter" to the entire "ball up" style of play.

[Voivode]

CapperDeluxe, on 11 December 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

I'm sorry but making the argument that each team should be able to deploy a whopping 24 strikes EACH is not a reasonable one to me. Seeing as they are only consumed when used I think it stands to reason that not everyone should be able to use all of their strikes every match. It should be a tactical weapon, not a commodity weapon.

Many battles in the real world have been won with massive use of artillery. Artillery is commonly referred to as "The King of Battle" for a reason.

As far as the game? If it's reasonable for 3/4 of each team to be assault and heavy mechs, then it's reasonable to drop 24 artillery strikes and 24 air strikes. That's what artillery and air strikes are for, after all, breaking hardened positions full of heavy weapons.

[Maerawn]

Really didnt intend to create a novel on this topic added a TLDR...

Ok first i would like to say i know this is MWO and not real world, so dont flip out that i use actual real world supporting fire as an example.

Artillery Strike: Indirect fire support from behind the front lines unit, typically fired without the ability to see where the ordinance lands. Usually called in using a radio by a pinned down unit, that relates the coordinates of the enemy force to a rear unit who fires upon that coordinates. Usually without providing prior knowledge of the incoming barrage to the enemy.

what that means is be happy you see some damn smoke, the fact that i cant just hide in a cave and pull up the battlegrid and click where i want the strike to occur, already means i have to show myself, even for a brief moment to designate the location of the enemy.

Air Strike: Direct fire support from a aerial vehicle from over head. could be stupid (just a big bomb dropped and hope it hits something) or smart (directed usually with a laser)

this laser in some circumstances is held by a human, usually a scout sniper from a special forces unit on a target that doesnt even know it is being designated until the see the plane above them. or from the plane itself that is dropping the ordinance, or from a overwatch plane such as an AWAC. in the instance of a dumb bomb, have you ever heard of a Spectre Gunship, a targeted barrage from a flying artilery gun?

Either way your not going to know its about to happen until you see the plane, and if you pay attention the air strike has a aerospace fighter animation over head as well as the damn smoke...

Both of these consumable are mimicking real world military actions. Just be happy they havent put in the ORBITAL BOMBARDMENT i have been wanting, that would be like 4 random arty strikes in 4 designated adjacent battle grids with no warning other then an explosion. technically we do have drop ships and orbiting warships that brought us to the planet... but im geting onto a tangent... back to the original topic....

Secondly the location of where the shells drop is completely random, when calling an artillery strike on the enemy, they dont get a chance to go wait it only takes one shell landing on my head to kill me, they should have to hit my head with 3 shells... seriously man up, your in a walking tank, if you get randomly head shot by an artillery strike chalk it up to bad luck. maybe you should have been moving more, maybe you shouldnt have been in a deathball to get one shot.

Now i normally play heavy/assault mechs, i have been caught in a number of arty strikes that i couldnt move me fat arse out of quick enough. i have yet to be head shot by one, i have had limbs blown off, i have been killed because my torso went and my XL blew. Have i been head shot... no. the only time i have ever been one shot by an arty strike is when i accidently called on in on top of myself in a locust. (btw it was freaking hilarious)

Thirdly they arent as prolific as you think they are, In pugs i might see one a game and its usually because the entire team decided to try to move through one choke point. after the first strike they kinda spread out so the death ball disappears like it should. And the few times i have played in 12s they were used a bit more, but the way i work my lances (AND BRONT YOU CAN ATTEST TO THIS) we never are within 150 meters of each other, there is no death ball to use a arty strike on.

in those 6 matches we played that night 4 of which you were in bront, i might have seen an arty strike an average of 2 time per match. so if you are playing 12s and are getting destroyed by arty strikes for the first 5 minutes of the match maybe you should rethink your tactics, be more mobile, and learn to use 3 4 man lances instead of one 12 man company.

TLDR: stop being a baby, these are working in accordance to the defined aspect of war they emulate... They are ment to break hardened targets and scatter enemy formation. working as intended..if you get head shot, sucks to be you, im sure there are alot of fallen soldiers who wish this was impossible too... alter your tactics in 12 mans and you wont get 5 minutes of artilery... be happy i cant call in an orbital bombardment....

Edited by Maerawn, 12 December 2013 - 08:51 AM.

[Black Alexidor]

There needs to be a disctinction, for the sake of this discussion, between 1-4 man / 12 mans / 12 competitive.

I am going to disregard all the subjective comments in this thread, since they are a waste of all our time. I am also going to focus this discussion from the 12 man competitive perspective, since this is where most of the unbalanced outcry is concerned.

Having 48 arty/air strikes bombarding the battlefield as soon as they are available is NOT a balanced system in this game. Considering they can headshot and have a ridiculously short cooldown time for the dmg they output, it screams unbalanced. Watch most competitive matches and you will see that this is a generally low skill, high reward function of the game that is not being used to its proper intent (area of denial / harassment / distraction).

Most competitive players/teams are trying to help balance out this game, and you will only get this kind of information from the competitive level of play (most games have done it this way, and you'll find in most games certain items/waepons are restricted in comp play due to their imbalance combined with never being balanced by the game creators).

Now I'm not saying they NEED to be changed, they can become a restriced part of competitive play, if PGI ignores this unbalance, and that would be fine. As the game grows, it is unreasonble and probably impossible to have complete balance between the variety of weapons in the battletech universe. I say this because it does not affect most of the playing community, but rather the struggling competitive community.

Anyone who doesn't or hasn't played in proper 12 competitive play doesn't really have a proper voice of authority concerning this matter, not being elitist, just realistic. A lot of people just want their opinion to be heard, regardless if they are providing proper objective information or not. The fact of the matter is the current implemenation of Artillery and Air strikes are unbalanced.

Anyone who wishes to debate with me in an objective, information based style, I am more than willing, but I will be disregarding all subjective commentary.

Edited by Black Alexidor, 12 December 2013 - 01:03 PM.