97 replies to this topic

[PickledFoo]

Hi all,

Like the title says, I'm curious about how you build your mechs. Do you start with an engine you like and build around it? Do you pick a weapon and make everything else fit? Do you listen to the dulcet tones of Sir Elton John while you put it all together?

I'm extremely interested to hear peoples' take on the process, as it's something I'm not very good at. Thanks for your time!

[Victor Morson]

First off, this is going to be the biggest help to you ever:
Smurfy's

This will let you design a 'mech on the net BEFORE you buy parts for it, to make sure you're on track.

-

Second, the best thing to do is to look at what the better players are running. There's a lot of guides for good and ill out there and it's rough to sort through them, but youtube anything from the Mercenary's Star alliance and you'll be fine - amazing collection of units there.

Once you have an idea what kind of role you want, then it's usually best to start with the frame - Endo (Ferro sometimes in addition), DHS, etc. Max the armor (You can always trim it back as needed) on any sections you plan to use (skip unused arms).

Finally, I load the weapons and engines in and toy with it until I get a balance I like. Again, this is why Smurfy's is far better than planning a 'mech in the MW:O mechlab: You aren't having to work with parts you own / buy parts.

--

Long story short once you've got a design you like on Smurfy's, you've got two options:

Click the Share link and post it up on the forums and see what people think (if you're unsure), maybe get recommendations;
Buy the 'mechs & parts and get building!

Either way this will help you cut down big time on lost money and time building something that doesn't ultimately come together. You'll know exactly what you're building in advance.

PS: I recommend you always take Endo and DHS. DHS will improve the "unseen" heatsinks in the engine as well, and thus are ALWAYS worth it, even if you don't have extra heatsinks.

Edited by Victor Morson, 12 December 2013 - 04:28 PM.

[PickledFoo]

Thanks for your reply! I'm actually familiar with Smurfy, it's one of my favorite ways to kill time at work! Just don't tell them.

My big confusion with building mechs generally comes towards the end of making a build on Smurfy. I generally find that I wind up with either A) not enough tonnage, not enough slots, C) not enough speed, or D) not enough heat efficiency. I'm super interested in figuring out the steps that people take as the make a build, and I really like your method!

[Boldar]

I always start with the standard config.
Then I try to figure out which role is fitting for the weight and hardpoints available. No use in trying to turn a highlander into a scouthunter...
I do not like Mechs with "blind spots" regarding firing range, so I always try to cover every distance available. Exceptions are scout mechs, they are usually not designed to engage long range.
Now I switch to DHS and endosteel and throw out the weapons I do not want to keep. Then take a look at heat efficiency and free tonnage and put in the weapons I want to have. If I have free tonnage left I consider adding a bigger engine (never hurts). If I miss some slots I usually try a bigger engine too (can hold more heatsinks, leads to free slots).
But there is really no easy way to build a mech and there is definitely no such thing as a perfect build. It always depends on your playing style. Most of all modifying mechs is trying (and failing) a lot. But don´t give up, it is a lot of fun, too. And it is very satsfying if you manage to find a build that works great for you...

Edited by Boldar, 13 December 2013 - 12:16 AM.

[zudukai]

try and get a baseline minimum of 35% or 1.3 heat efficiency depending on the role, brawlers or infighters need sustainable damage (50~70%), burst snipers and LRM mechs can getaway with 30~35% because they have terrain and distance allowing extra time to cool off (on top of cool-downs and fire rates). alternatively you can have a "cool" weapon or grouping to sustain or lower your heat levels.

Heat control is CRITICAL, more important then ANYTHING else aside from piloting, MORE important then accuracy AND tactics,
:. DHS are basically a requirement to every build, also try to fit at least a 250 rated engine with the 300 being basically the most efficient size.

[Void Angel]

PickledFoo, on 12 December 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

Hi all,

Like the title says, I'm curious about how you build your mechs. Do you start with an engine you like and build around it? Do you pick a weapon and make everything else fit? Do you listen to the dulcet tones of Sir Elton John while you put it all together?

I'm extremely interested to hear peoples' take on the process, as it's something I'm not very good at. Thanks for your time!

Unless I'm trying to find out what I can fit on a chassis with a very fast (or unusually slow) engine, I never start out with Engines. So while I don't follow any hard-and-fast rules, my general design process goes like this:

• Start with the chassis stripped of equipment and with maxxed armor; round down to the nearest half-ton by pulling armor off the legs.
  
• Unless there is an overriding reason not to do so, add Double Heat Sinks and Endo-Steel. Ferro-Fibrous Armor and Single Heat Sinks are almost never useful outside of a Light chassis, though exceptions may exist¹.
  
• Put in ECM if possible.
  
• Now that these semi-required steps are completed, decide what kind of general weapons I want to field - Long-range, short-range, dakka, big punch, etc. - and start matching them up with hardpoints. Add specialty equipment like the Beagle or TAG if appropriate (LRMs for example.)
  
• Add any secondary weapon systems (Medium Lasers for close-in defense of your LRM boat, for example.)
  
• See what kind and size of engine I can/want to fit, based on chassis and role: Cataphracts and Battlemasters do very well with XL Engines - but every time you put an XL in an Atlas D-DC, ***** kills a puppy.
  
• Add appropriate amounts of ammunition and fill up on Heat Sinks.
  
• Possibly reduce leg armor (or head armor for a light) further to pick up small amounts of tonnage if absolutely required. Check viability of Ferro-Fibrous Armor for extremely space-efficient builds.
  
• Evaluate the Chassis based on speed for its role and Smurfy's Weaponlab tool.
  
• Adjust steps 4-9 until I am happy with speed, heat efficiency, and combat longevity (how many seconds of combat have I bought ammunition for?)
  
• Aaaand test through multiple matches, even if I experience catastrophic failure, to determine the effectiveness of this build in my hands.

1: Yes, I have seen Koniving's Single Heat Sink 2xERPPC Atlas - it is amusing and instructive, but it also puts out 5 dps. Sure, you could even go this route, but it's still putting out a little under 10 DPS. =)

Edited by Void Angel, 13 December 2013 - 01:14 AM.

[Roughneck45]

Void Angel, on 13 December 2013 - 01:11 AM, said:

• Start with the chassis stripped of equipment and with maxxed armor; round down to the nearest half-ton by pulling armor off the legs.
  
• Unless there is an overriding reason not to do so, add Double Heat Sinks and Endo-Steel. Ferro-Fibrous Armor and Single Heat Sinks are almost never useful outside of a Light chassis, though exceptions may exist¹.
  
• Put in ECM if possible.
  
• Now that these semi-required steps are completed, decide what kind of general weapons I want to field - Long-range, short-range, dakka, big punch, etc. - and start matching them up with hardpoints. Add specialty equipment like the Beagle or TAG if appropriate (LRMs for example.)
  
• Add any secondary weapon systems (Medium Lasers for close-in defense of your LRM boat, for example.)
  
• See what kind and size of engine I can/want to fit, based on chassis and role: Cataphracts and Battlemasters do very well with XL Engines - but every time you put an XL in an Atlas D-DC, ***** kills a puppy.
  
• Add appropriate amounts of ammunition and fill up on Heat Sinks.
  
• Possibly reduce leg armor (or head armor for a light) further to pick up small amounts of tonnage if absolutely required. Check viability of Ferro-Fibrous Armor for extremely space-efficient builds.
  
• Evaluate the Chassis based on speed for its role and Smurfy's Weaponlab tool.
  
• Adjust steps 4-9 until I am happy with speed, heat efficiency, and combat longevity (how many seconds of combat have I bought ammunition for?)
  
• Aaaand test through multiple matches, even if I experience catastrophic failure, to determine the effectiveness of this build in my hands.

Spot on. +1

And remember, dont use C.A.S.E. with an XL, try to use at least a 250 size engine so you get the ten true double heat sinks, and you don't need max armor on arms that are holding minimal weaponry like an atlas arm with one medium laser.

Edited by Roughneck45, 13 December 2013 - 10:53 AM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

A note about Endo. Especially in high-heat builds, Endo can sometimes take up more space than the weight gain is worth. I always save it for late in the weaponizing process, once I'm relatively sure that I can fit the HS I need to make the build work.

A note about my note about Endo. If you find that you have the space to add it but not to add anything else, look at your engine. Would adding Endo let you bump it up in rating? If so, then Endo is probably worth it (even more so if it pushes you over one of the 25-rating steps, which nets you an extra engine HS or engine slot).

[DONTOR]

I select a mech put on a blindfold and click buttons for ten minutes. If im lucky ill get some TAGs since they are kind of effective, if im unlucky ill have SRMs because they only register based on the positioning of the moon.

[PickledFoo]

Thanks for all the replies, this is extremely insightful!

[Void Angel]

As far as armor goes, you should pay attention to what locations die first. How often do you lose your arm before your torso? How often do you get cored out from behind? This is where pure design starts to blur into piloting skills and practices. If you're losing your torso while your arms are still yellow, you might easily take a half-ton of armor off them to put in heat sinks or whatnot - but you might also want to adjust how you torso twist and shield in combat. Ditto with front-back armor balance. I do not ascribe to the "one third, two thirds" of rear to forward torso armor, myself. Instead, I constantly watch my performance over multiple matches to see if I need to adjust.

[TercieI]

That's a great list, Void, and closely reflects my approach.

The only things I'd add is that I do look at forum discussions, MechSpecs and stuff I've spectated and thought looked effective/suited me. I also have a buddy who I discuss both of our builds with.

The only things I'd disagree with is your "never" on Ferro-Fibrous. It's rare, but it's not never. My AC/20 SHD has it, there are a couple Jager builds that can use it. It's definitely an outlying thing, but when I'm mostly done, I look at how many crits I have and if it's 15+ I consider FF. (Heck, even if it's exactly 14 it might let you shore up armor*).

*You may be a little too compulsive if you paid for FF to get the last two points of armor on your Death's Knell's head.

Edited by Terciel1976, 13 December 2013 - 10:17 AM.

[LauLiao]

PickledFoo, on 12 December 2013 - 05:48 PM, said:

Thanks for your reply! I'm actually familiar with Smurfy, it's one of my favorite ways to kill time at work! Just don't tell them.

My big confusion with building mechs generally comes towards the end of making a build on Smurfy. I generally find that I wind up with either A) not enough tonnage, not enough slots, C) not enough speed, or D) not enough heat efficiency. I'm super interested in figuring out the steps that people take as the make a build, and I really like your method!

Keep in mind your mech won't be able to do EVERYthing and that some things can compensate for others. For example, if you have a lighter mech with a high engine rating and lots of speed and maneuverability, you won't need a lot of armor because you will rely on your speed to keep you from getting hit. Also, if you build around high-heat, slow-firing weapons like PPCs, your speed can also compensate for heat efficiency to a degree. If your mech is fast enough you can pop off a shot then run to cover until you cool down.

Conversely, if you're rollin' in an Atlas, chances are you won't need a lot of speed, and the difference in speed between a 350 and a 400 engine on that puppy isn't going to allow you to be dodging shells, so you might as well load up on firepower and armor.

It's all about finding that niche for the mech then building around that

[Rasc4l]

PickledFoo, on 12 December 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

Like the title says, I'm curious about how you build your mechs. Do you start with an engine you like and build around it? Do you pick a weapon and make everything else fit? Do you listen to the dulcet tones of Sir Elton John while you put it all together?

Yeah, generally engines go first because that dictates the amount of space and tonnage you have remaining for all other things. General notes:

- Upgrade to DHS first. No exception to this.

- Engine sizes 250-300 tend to work for many weight classes. I think I have 3xXL275 and a couple of XL300 just to skip some drag'n'dropping. In general, learn to think about engines in increments of 25 because every 25 steps the engine can carry more heatsinks. Also note that some lower XLs weight the same i.e. you can just as well buy XL255 instead of XL250 unless your mech is capped at 250.

- Then you add the weapons of choice, usually concentrating on a ballistic/missiles complemented with lazors. If you like poptarting/sniping, then you do the PPC-Gauss thing.

- If you have slots, you take endo steel. This usually happens always with medium-heavies. With lights, you sometimes IN ADDITION, not instead, take ferro fibrous. With heavies, you sometimes don't even take endo-steel because you need the slots. If you took LRMs, then you definitely upgrade them to artemis and usually with SRMs too.

- Finally, you optimize your armor, which is practice means putting everything to max except legs to 1/2 - 2/3 of max and maybe a shield arm is stripped of armour. Unless you're a light, then you wanna keep your leg armor max. Some people are confident enough to keep 90-95 % of their torso armor in the front. I'm not. For heavies, assaults, I tend to use 16 also in the sides so that single gauss from 500 meters doesn't get your internals right away. Even for light mechs, I basically never go to single digits even in the sides.

[Void Angel]

My Atlas has (I think) 20 on its CT rear, and 18 on the rear sides; smaller 'mechs have less, but I don't drop below 10 until I get to lights - because PPCs. This is enough armor to get me through the rare instances where I have to offer my back to the enemy before being able to rotate my arms/frontal armor back toward the fight. This is the case, however, in part because I have a 325 standard engine in my Atlas. This high engine rating affects not only my movement, but my torso twisting speed.

A meta-factor in 'mech design that bears mentioning is this: Speeds are faster than they used to be. If you are using a 48 kph Battlemech, you are simply not fast enough for the modern battlefield. Enemies will outposition you in maneuver, and outfight you in a brawl. You need to have higher-rated engines to compete - I personally will not use less than a 300 rated engine for my Atlas, and that's for a mid-range combatant, not a knife-range brawler.

[Void Angel]

Also, be wary of pulling TOO much armor off your legs - people like me will sometimes hit you in the leg first if you're not shooting at us, simply to see if you're sporting 33 points of leg armor on your Atlas.

[Kai Harper]

PickledFoo, on 12 December 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

Hi all,

Like the title says, I'm curious about how you build your mechs. Do you start with an engine you like and build around it? Do you pick a weapon and make everything else fit? Do you listen to the dulcet tones of Sir Elton John while you put it all together?

I'm extremely interested to hear peoples' take on the process, as it's something I'm not very good at. Thanks for your time!

Myself, since finding out about Smurfy's awhile back, I build *everything* in that and tweak it repeatedly before I even have the C-Bills to afford what I'm looking at - first and foremost. While building, I generally start with engine and armour, to see just how much tonnage I have to play with after those two things are sorted out - and I can slightly tweak which engine I want based on the loadout I'm aiming for, and take a hit to armour if need be.

After that, the overwhelming majority of the time, I go DHS, since it really is invaluable; and then I'm partial to AMS, if applicable. Even if it's just with one ton of ammo, that damage reduction is great. Next step is checking for ECM, and then moving from heaviest weapons to lightest, and ammo requirements, before finally tweaking and retweaking repeatedly until I'm happy with the build. Happy hunting, PickledFoo! May your mechs be effective, and your matches plentiful.

*EDIT* I forgot the Endo step...derp. Engine -> Armour -> Endo -> DHS -> AMS -> Weapons/Ammo -> Tweak/retweak.

Edited by Kai Harper, 13 December 2013 - 01:14 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 13 December 2013 - 09:17 AM, said:

A note about Endo. Especially in high-heat builds, Endo can sometimes take up more space than the weight gain is worth. I always save it for late in the weaponizing process, once I'm relatively sure that I can fit the HS I need to make the build work.

Never ever ever, ever, EVER true.

Adding Ferro is optional on top of Endo, but Endo should be on EVERY 'mech. If a 'mech is lacking Endo it's a very bad design.

There are literally no good non-endo designs, at all.

Edited by Victor Morson, 13 December 2013 - 12:44 PM.

[Buckminster]

Rasc4l, on 13 December 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

- Upgrade to DHS first. No exception to this.

I don't necessarily agree with this.

Granted, on most builds, DHS is a must. But at 1.5 million it's also expensive, and there may be other things you can do that will have an impact for less cost.

And then there are mechs (my Shadow Hawks, for example) which do just fine with SHS. Sure, DHS will free up some weight, but it's minimal gain for a lot of money.

[LauLiao]

Victor Morson, on 13 December 2013 - 12:43 PM, said:

Never ever ever, ever, EVER true.

Adding Ferro is optional on top of Endo, but Endo should be on EVERY 'mech. If a 'mech is lacking Endo it's a very bad design.

There are literally no good non-endo designs, at all.

Not so sure about this.