292 replies to this topic

[Pariah Devalis]

That becomes one hell of a slippery slope, then. There are avenues to go down before that nuclear option is taken. You think people are pissed about the clans right now? Imagine what would happen if they suddenly went back on their word that the stock configs will be left as they are supposed to be. Man, the [Scrap] would hit the fan!

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 16 December 2013 - 06:25 PM.

[Odanan]

pbiggz, on 16 December 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

The nerf should hopefully come with the changes to weapon MECHANICS, not just number tweaks.

I would prefer a change of the game mechanics itself.

No more convoluted systems for balancing weapons, please.

[pbiggz]

Gaan Cathal, on 16 December 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

Bolded sentence is categorically false, assuming Paul's design remains intact. They will be vastly inferior.

No. Not VASTLY inferior. As someone with experience balancing games (2d and board games do in fact count) I can tell you right now that what PGI plans to do makes sense. It will need more fleshing out and intensive iterative testing and tweaking, but making a sweeping judgement that all clan weapons are VASTLY inferior to IS weapons post nerf is just as stupid as calling for them to remain un-nerfed altogether.

Also, with regards to omnimechs. Your Engine and internals are locked. That is the price you pay for virtual hardpoint freedom.

Pariah Devalis, on 16 December 2013 - 06:25 PM, said:

That becomes one hell of a slippery slope, then. There are avenues to go down before that nuclear option is taken. You think people are pissed about the clans right now? Imagine what would happen if they suddenly went back on their word that the stock configs will be left as they are supposed to be. Man, the [Scrap] would hit the fan!

And the rage would blow over just the way it is right now, and just the way 3pv did. PGI HAS
to have the guts to stand up to the most vocal of its player base, especially when those players are dead wrong and have no semblance of knowledge pertaining to the design and balancing of complex games such as this one.

Odanan, on 16 December 2013 - 06:25 PM, said:

I would prefer a change of the game mechanics itself.

No more convoluted systems for balancing weapons, please.

That's exactly what they're trying to do. Notice their example had a minimal amount of number tweaking (only where there were blatant discrepancies) the rest of their balance suggestions were in the ways the weapons worked.

Also ghost heat is a pretty general system that applies to everything. While it is NOT the system I would personally have used, it doesn't need MORE to do what it's already doing (arguably) well. I wouldn't worry about any other layers of general weapons balancing on top of ghost heat.

Edited by pbiggz, 16 December 2013 - 06:32 PM.

[John Norad]

Garamanus, on 16 December 2013 - 05:19 PM, said:

If the Clan Mechs were introduced at the level of superiority lore suggests, no one would take Inner Sphere mechs, founders and phoenix packages would be a sham/waste.

That is just an unfounded assumption, nothing more.
Well, maybe there is some kind of justification, looking at PGI's rather lackluster track record and the way they've done things so far.
But that doesn't mean in any way, shape, or form, that it's an inevitable outcome.

If you do it right, you could introduce superior clans, and people would still also play inner sphere.
Of course that way would included game mechanics, background, economics, etc.
Like I said - If you do it right.

[pbiggz]

John Norad, on 16 December 2013 - 06:45 PM, said:

That is just an unfounded assumption, nothing more.
Well, maybe there is some kind of justification, looking at PGI's rather lackluster track record and the way they've done things so far.
But that doesn't mean in any way, shape, or form, that it's an inevitable outcome.

If you do it right, you could introduce superior clans, and people would still also play inner sphere.
Of course that way would included game mechanics, background, economics, etc.
Like I said - If you do it right.

No. Just No.

It is not an unfounded assumption, it is a proven fact, because it has happened before. Every single past mechwarrior game has suffered from the same condition.

You have no idea what "right" is, you just arbitrarily hate what PGI has suggested because it nerfs your precious EZ win button. Grow up, because that EZ win button has already been taken from you, and there is nothing you can do to stop it. No amount of forum whining thinly veiled under "articulated" arguments that actually deliver no real counter to any of the points in this thread can change that.

[Jason1138]

FireSlade, on 16 December 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:

It is not destroying lore to balance the clans. They still will be superior but they will also have more drawbacks to balance it out.

how can something be "superior" and also "balanced out" at the same time?

[Gaan Cathal]

pbiggz, on 16 December 2013 - 06:30 PM, said:

No. Not VASTLY inferior. As someone with experience balancing games (2d and board games do in fact count) I can tell you right now that what PGI plans to do makes sense. It will need more fleshing out and intensive iterative testing and tweaking, but making a sweeping judgement that all clan weapons are VASTLY inferior to IS weapons post nerf is just as stupid as calling for them to remain un-nerfed altogether.

Also, with regards to omnimechs. Your Engine and internals are locked. That is the price you pay for virtual hardpoint freedom.

I didn't say a thing about the weapons. I was talking about the mechs. Not being able to push a Light above 100kph makes them DOA. Not being able to give a Summoner any better armour than a Stormcrow makes it DOA. The ability to mix and match variant locations (which is not even close to the same as 'hardpoint freedom') doesn't even come close to making up for that.

What needs 'nerfing' with regard to TT is the weapons. Make them identical in range, firepower etc to IS versions, just make them weigh less. Then field 10 Clan mechs against 12 IS mechs. Each Clan mech gets slightly more firepower for it's tonnage, the IS get two whole extra mechs. Job done. No need to make Omnimechs less omni than Inner Sphere ones, no need to garble the weapon stats.

Edited by Gaan Cathal, 16 December 2013 - 07:10 PM.

[pbiggz]

Gaan Cathal, on 16 December 2013 - 07:08 PM, said:

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I didn't say a thing about the weapons. I was talking about the mechs. Not being able to push a Light above 100kph makes them DOA. Not being able to give a Summoner any better armour than a Stormcrow makes it DOA. The ability to mix and match variant locations (which is not even close to the same as 'hardpoint freedom') doesn't even come close to making up for that.

What needs 'nerfing' with regard to TT is the weapons. Make them identical in range, firepower etc to IS versions, just make them weigh less. Then field 10 Clan mechs against 12 IS mechs. Each Clan mech gets slightly more firepower for it's tonnage, the IS get two whole extra mechs. Job done. No need to make Omnimechs less omni than Inner Sphere ones, no need to garble the weapon stats.

As i have said many times before, numerical balancing is a sidestep, it doesn't solve the problem. And riddle me this, what happens when a merc core (with access to clan tech on the black market) gets 12 fully clan-tech outfitted warriors and drops them against... anyone. You now outnumber clans in their own tech, you STILL have a tech advantage over IS, so you can throw your system out the window.

[Quaamik]

Personally, I think they are doing well with their thoughts on balancing weapons.

My personal suggestions would differ, but at does not mean theirs won't work. Personally, I'd favor Clan LRMs doing full damage from point blank on out (reflecting damage based on explosive warheads rather than kinetic energy) but having no tracking or lock under 180 meters. That would make them basicly a slow version of an LBX, or a SRM with more spread out damage for close range.

For the Clan ER PPC, I think they should re-balance vrs the IS ER PPC and make the IS version better for close engagements vs the Clan versions higher damage and longer range being better for long range fights. That could b done with slightly longer recharge time on the Clan ER PPC, a little high heat on it, and lowering he heat on the IS ER PPC to 14. Maybe even drop the range a little on the IS version.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Jason1138, on 16 December 2013 - 07:03 PM, said:

how can something be "superior" and also "balanced out" at the same time?

Wow, you forum roamers amuse me.

[Richard Strong]

Zellbrigen lol, who cares. There is no lore in a game like this and that is fine.

[FireSlade]

Jason1138, on 16 December 2013 - 07:03 PM, said:

how can something be "superior" and also "balanced out" at the same time?

Longer range but more heat, less tons but longer burn, are all pretty good examples. You could take the Dire Wolf out have superior damage output but have less customizing options, runs hotter, and it would not be as durable as an Atlas. See to have something be superior and balanced at the same time you need multiple attributes where one makes it better in 1 area and because of that it is worse in another area. I probably could have worded that better but that is what I meant.

[Gaan Cathal]

pbiggz, on 16 December 2013 - 07:13 PM, said:

As i have said many times before, numerical balancing is a sidestep, it doesn't solve the problem. And riddle me this, what happens when a merc core (with access to clan tech on the black market) gets 12 fully clan-tech outfitted warriors and drops them against... anyone. You now outnumber clans in their own tech, you STILL have a tech advantage over IS, so you can throw your system out the window.

You don't do something as stupid as giving merch corps access to Clan Tech. Keep the Clan and IS tech and currency pools completely seperate.

[Duke Hector]

Marack Drock, on 16 December 2013 - 02:03 PM, said:

Well we are already destroying the Lore as it is by nerfing Clans and PGI won't be implementing Zellbrigen for sure. So while we are at it lets just take out Lore. Battlemaster was added and by Lore it was out of production by the 29th century. We are destroying Lore with every year. Since Lore is disappearing anyways lets just take it out. Especially since community warfare is coming out that means we can conquer any planet even if it contradicts lore. So how about we just take it out and be done with it.

P.S. We also got rid of it when Clans didn't come last year meaning the invasion is a year off already.

ok you guys have been whining for the clans since this game came out thats all i have heard. the fact of the matter is the clans are coming, they are here, and they are on their way

smile...

say thank you

and don't look a gift horse in the mouth

when i was first playing mechwarrior 2 i was all clans, come as to know, i don't like the clans themselves anymore i like thier mechs and their tech but not them anymore, i like the inner sphere better after all this time

because if they put the clans in as is from the tabletop, NO ONE would play inner sphere just because of their tech is that much better, and it would destroy the game. As it is.. its going to be bad enough with ultra AC2/10/20s and LBX-2/5/20, and Streak Srm 4/6s

good lord i hope the clan tech stays with the clan mechs only, i would HATE to see stupid ac40 jagers and cataphracts turn into ultra ac 40 jagers or lbx-40s

Edited by Dan the Ice Man, 16 December 2013 - 07:58 PM.

[ZnSeventeen]

Gaan Cathal, on 16 December 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

Bolded sentence is categorically false, assuming Paul's design remains intact. They will be vastly inferior.

No.

Now for a constructive bit of posting, you will be able to effectively put a CUAC/2 on a Locust, which even if nerfed to below normal AC/2 somehow, that will be very good. Also, two CERLL on a Centurion Yen Lo Wang or Atlas AS7-D CT will make for a beastly zombie.

[Pariah Devalis]

Why stop there? You can slap on a C-ERPPC onto a Locust's center torso, as well. 170 kph gauss rifle. There is a reason we need to keep clan tech on clan mechs.

Edit:

Or a C-ERLLas (10 damage) and two C-ERMLas (7 damage) on a Spider 5D. 24 damage on a platform that fast and hard to hit. Have fun with that.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 16 December 2013 - 10:06 PM.

[pbiggz]

Pariah Devalis, on 16 December 2013 - 09:58 PM, said:

Why stop there? You can slap on a C-ERPPC onto a Locust's center torso, as well. 170 kph gauss rifle. There is a reason we need to keep clan tech on clan mechs.

I have actually changed my stance in that regard. I used to be in the mixed weapons-pure tech pool, i'm now a pure tech supporter. BUT it shouldn't matter if weapons are balanced.

[Thorn Hallis]

By lore rarely any Clan woud uphold Zellbriggen against Inner Sphere opponents.

By lore (or fluff) no clanner below the rank of Star Colonel would ever be allowded by his or her superior to reconfigure his or her Omnimech.

By lore a Clanner will get it's 'Mech assigned by his superior.


You really want that?

[Void Angel]

There's more to "your sacred lore" than fracking Zelbrigen - nor would I ever want Zelbrigen in this game format, nor can you actually enforce Zelbrigen in this game format. Oh, I'm sure you could try, but it would fail in gameplay - or as a game. Zelbrigen is only interesting if you view MWO as some kind of BattleTech LARP. That's not what this is - MWO is a competitive Battlemech combat game with planned elements for large-scale group competition based on the BattleTech universe. It is not intended to be a way to reproduce the storyline of the Battletech universe - you'd have to use more rails than Union Pacific.

If you want to roleplay within that context, so be it. I've done the same thing myself - faction chauvinism is fun! But as long as you expect MWO to be some sort of roleplaying accessory to your MechWarrior Third Edition campaign, you're going to continue to be disappointed.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Zell would not last long anyway if they adhered to lore, so its implementation is largely a moot point. Secondly, attempting to govern player behavior through some bizarre form of developer driven pressure or bad mechanics would just drive people away from the game. What happens before and after Tukkayid when Clan units start to disregard Zell against IS targets, and the Clan technology you pine for suddenly overpowers the game entirely? What then?

Poor thread OP. You lack foresight with your demands for a crutch in lieu of game balance. Your attempted adherence to lore is farcical and not in keeping with the spirit of the Clans in anyway. You merely want OP weapons which will hurt the game balance, create an arms race, invalidate IS Mechs and have no true upside save for people who want a legal version of aim-bot, like yourself.

Enjoy the game for what it is and the spirit of Clan warfare they hope to apply and get over your sad desire for a crutch. I am glad you are not in my unit. We would have to release you for the surat you demonstrate yourself to be with this sad little thread.