292 replies to this topic

[Odanan]

pbiggz, on 16 December 2013 - 07:13 PM, said:

As i have said many times before, numerical balancing is a sidestep, it doesn't solve the problem. And riddle me this, what happens when a merc core (with access to clan tech on the black market) gets 12 fully clan-tech outfitted warriors and drops them against... anyone. You now outnumber clans in their own tech, you STILL have a tech advantage over IS, so you can throw your system out the window.

First, it takes many, many years for IS to get a Clan mech working.

Did you use to play MW3 and MW4? Well, that games were BS (every little ordinary pilot could deploy Clan tech).

[ssm]

Gaan Cathal, on 16 December 2013 - 07:08 PM, said:

[/size]

I didn't say a thing about the weapons. I was talking about the mechs. Not being able to push a Light above 100kph makes them DOA. Not being able to give a Summoner any better armour than a Stormcrow makes it DOA. The ability to mix and match variant locations (which is not even close to the same as 'hardpoint freedom') doesn't even come close to making up for that.

What needs 'nerfing' with regard to TT is the weapons. Make them identical in range, firepower etc to IS versions, just make them weigh less. Then field 10 Clan mechs against 12 IS mechs. Each Clan mech gets slightly more firepower for it's tonnage, the IS get two whole extra mechs. Job done. No need to make Omnimechs less omni than Inner Sphere ones, no need to garble the weapon stats.

Problem is, 10:12 odds aren't really that big drawback - it happens very often (due to DCs or sheer stupidity of 1-2 players), and it's perfectly possible for 10-man to win, no to mention that team aware of numerical disadvantage is more inclined for actual teamwork.

And that's with comparable tech.

[Tarl Cabot]

Zellbrigen. Like anything else its use in the game should depend on the unit dropping. In pug games it would be non-existent for the Clan side, whereas for unit play it would be up to that unit on how it would utilize it during game play and that is where it should rest.

It would be no different than those units currently using focus fire during team play. And what Clan-inspired unit tries to follow Zellbrigen when facing Innersphere units? Are there any units that actually practice it? Just cause ya not in Clan mechs shouldn't keep you from that aspect of it, should it?

As for the weapons, due to both longer range for medium and short range weapons, never mind some of the more damaging weapons, if PGI did not make Omni mechs really be Omni mechs as would have been seen during a campaign setting (also mentioned that majority of mechs belong to the clan, not the warrior) then the IS mechs really would not stand a chance. Due to weight and size, most clan mechs can bring more weapons, the heatsinks to dispense the heat, the speed to maneuver and the survivability of 2 crits/side torso on XL engines. And we all know about that, as it is generally a one side debate on IS mechs on when to generally run with an XL or not.

Right now though, we really do not know how all mechs will perform. Even with the current crop of IS mechs we only know how they perform in a unit setting most of the time with the exception of primarily lights.

Besides, most clanners are not really clanners of lore. If they were they would not be so up in arms on configuring their omnis outside the Prime/A/B/C/D versions cause anything more is just a waste of manpower and materials, hai?

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 17 December 2013 - 02:35 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

OK they have to take the LORE - or the rough concept of Omni Tech won't work
The perfect example is the Thor...
Thanks that this version comes with 5 variants in stock
So the concept can work when they choose Prime/A/C AND B ANDD Configs.
If they bring all 5 Mechs - the system is flawed right from the very first moment.
Take for example the Victor
Lets suggest I buy a Victor 9S (with 3 Missile Slots) after that I buy a 9B right arm and a 9K left arm
Let think if if do this with the 9B and the 9K too.... why should i skill 3 variants if they are all the same.

The next question is - missile weight -> there are several ways: the most simple: a down grade of rack size
20 -> 15; 15 -> 10 ....
or you toy arround with the engine sizes....350 for the Thor D; 340 for the Thor C; 320 for the Thor B....
but now they are no omni Mechs - they become battlemechs - that means the former switching of hard points isn't necessary.

So there are a couple of concerns in this very first draft of Clan Concept - and if they ignore this concern - they system could will be off balance the moment it is patched into the game

[Drakaisyl]

Well I think we have to stay tuned what comes out when they introduce it.And to be realistic...who actually believes that the Clans are done within the next half year ? In the end it could be that we have to mount IS weapons into our Daishi's,TimberWolves as there won't be Clan Weapon avaiable.And antother thing will be a certainly unplayable Nova...I mean 12 ER Medium lasers + Ghost Heat = Player destroyed by overheat.

And most sadly there will be cuts in the mechs aswell...I mean they will never let a 50 Ton Nova run around the Battlefield with 95 km/h or a TimberWolf with the same speed...

So ye...let's see with what PGI surprises us...

[Joseph Mallan]

FireSlade, on 16 December 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:

It is not destroying lore to balance the clans. They still will be superior but they will also have more drawbacks to balance it out. Many times the creators of Battletech have said that they wished that they had implemented them differently. To top it off this is a multiplayer game not a real life situation where the IS were the under dogs caught in a fight that they could not run from. You do that and anyone that wants to be competitive or a new player that comes will need a clan mech thus killing the IS mechs and equipment. To go further PGI seems to be following lore with the lack of customizing anything but the pod space. How can you call yourself a clanner when you do not have the gut to fight without your crutches. You are a dezgra.

If you are balanced with you enemy you are superior. I want a superior Enemy that will take me great fortitude and endurance to defeat. If I want to fight my equal I'll fight the Combine!

[Thorn Hallis]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 December 2013 - 05:33 AM, said:

If you are balanced with you enemy you are superior. I want a superior Enemy that will take me great fortitude and endurance to defeat. If I want to fight my equal I'll fight the Combine!

Once we have lobbies I'm sure you can do some 1:2 or 1:3 matches against some Clan opponents of your choice.

[Stepping Razor]

Enough of the NOSTALGIC WHINING. (look up the word NOSTALGIC on Google) i have dealt with this in searching for many games to recreate childhood or something i once had it just doesn't work.

The thing people need to realize about this game, is it is an MMO, their is no problem with this. This game is great in my opinion, it gets a little bit repetitive at times (via map list, game type) [but what first person shooter doesn't have this issue, that's probably why their is a new version of call duty every year, plus 4 map packs to go along with it spaced out by 3 months] so in my sense i rather support an on going Game that is Awesome, rather than support a game that will be void, and i have to buy a new copy of via new version in a years time after dumping time, money and energy into some thing that will just go out the window.

Ok with that said, lets talk about LORE, this being an on going game, if it was a single player game and we did not want to have any control, that's what it would be a 45 hour play through maybe less, running along the guide lines, of some preset plan. (BORING)

We now have an opportunity to become the LORE!!!!!!!!!! AWESOME!!!!!

If balancing issues have to be implemented on Clans let them be implemented. it is not going to be the same as you all once experienced and it will not Quench your Nostalgia we will never be able to truly recreate the Imagination of a 10 year old. We will never be able to play in the dirt and actually View our selves as the dump truck(free of responsibility), with out actually driving a dump truck around real-time grown-up size Free of responsibility (which will not happen cause you have to be a responsible person to drive a dump truck in the first place).

So Sit back relax, and CREATE YOUR OWN DESTINY. Also don't play like a wild banshee, it doesn't work play with thought and decisive action, die and learn, live and conquer. BE CAREFUL ONE DECISIVE WRONG ACTION OR COMMAND MAY LEAD TO YOUR DEATH, its all about being Clear Headed.

THIS IS WAR.

Mech "WAR" rior Online.

Hope i didn't come off to strong for y'all, but just slow your role be patient, and let things unfold as they come, no expectations leads to 0 disappointment, I am not saying don't dream, but don't expect people to Cater to your dreams. Stress FREE good luck y'all and HAPPY HUNTINGS!

Edited by Stepping Razor, 17 December 2013 - 06:54 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Thorn Hallis, on 17 December 2013 - 06:26 AM, said:

Once we have lobbies I'm sure you can do some 1:2 or 1:3 matches against some Clan opponents of your choice.

Why should I need a Lobby?

[Joseph Mallan]

Stepping Razor, on 17 December 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

So Sit back relax, and CREATE YOUR OWN DESTINY. Also don't play like a wild banshee, it doesn't work play with thought and decisive action, die and learn, live and conquer. BE CAREFUL ONE DECISIVE WRONG ACTION OR COMMAND MAY LEAD TO YOUR DEATH, its all about being Clear Headed.

THIS IS WAR.

Mech "WAR" rior Online.

Hope i didn't come off to strong for y'all, but just slow your role be patient, and let things unfold as they come, no expectations leads to 0 disappointment, I am not saying don't dream, but don't expect people to Cater to your dreams. Stress FREE good luck y'all and HAPPY HUNTINGS!

That is what I wanna face! I wanna have that War. The Clans are supposed to be a tough as steel enemy that scares lesser soldiers. I want that enemy. Lets see who breaks first.


P.S.
Forum guys... Can we PLEASE get an evil emoticon!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 17 December 2013 - 07:51 AM.

[Akula]

Dude. Seriously, for all intensive purposes the timeline was dropped a while back. The lore simply doesn't fit into a PvP MMO game style as it would rely on the players to act within the lore. That simply doesn't and will not happen.

[CyclonerM]

Skringly, on 17 December 2013 - 07:10 AM, said:

Dude. Seriously, for all intensive purposes the timeline was dropped a while back. The lore simply doesn't fit into a PvP MMO game style as it would rely on the players to act within the lore. That simply doesn't and will not happen.

Sorry but this is what i expect when playing a game based on a famous IP, may it be MechWarrior/BattleTech, Star Wars or whatever.

[Stepping Razor]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 December 2013 - 07:02 AM, said:

That is what I wanna face! I wanna have that War. The Clans are supposed to be a ouch as steel enemy that scares lesser soldiers. I want that enemy. Lets see who breaks first.


P.S.
Forum guys... Can we PLEASE get an evil emoticon!

makes sense would be awesome to see it implemented as you describe.

these things take time, and some times a lot more time than we want to wait. One problem is marketing, PGI is in over their heads monetary wise so they are trying to sell us things that we say we want with out understanding what we truly want. so hopefully some how, they can polish the things we want without bleeding us dry while doing so. this is difficult for a game of this quality as a free to play, i haven't seen any other title with quality of game-play that matches this free to play or even come close. all other free to plays are cartoons with basic mechanics with non realistic movement (these games also have a A starting Capital Wallet that far proceeds mech warriors, due to mech warriors licensing being so spread out over the years), mechanics in this game are intense and well done. so hopefully their game isn't to intense for their own good.

Edited by Stepping Razor, 17 December 2013 - 07:24 AM.

[Spurowny]

Marack Drock, on 17 December 2013 - 07:03 AM, said:

What I am trying to say is that we have fallen so far from Lore -as it is- why disgrace it further with PGI tainting it? We are half a year off of the Clan Wars, we would be ruining it with community Warfare, so why even put it into the game? The game won't be able to follow Lore when it is taking out key elements and taking to long to insert the Clans plus a dozen other things. Making the Clans come a half a year late is going to have a major influence and change on the timeline. Why even make an official timeline to follow, when the game isn't even going to be official canon (look at it in Sarna). The game is so off as it is we shouldn't even try to follow it in multiplayer modes. If they made campaigns to play that give Lore and then we have the off Lore Community Warfare then I'd be fine but that will never happen. So I say don't insert the Lore. Follow a base line that gives an idea of what Lore was but don't try to replicate it when you are so off.

I am now fully convinced the OP is trolling

[ssm]

CyclonerM, on 17 December 2013 - 07:19 AM, said:

Sorry but this is what i expect when playing a game based on a famous IP, may it be MechWarrior/BattleTech, Star Wars or whatever.

If this was MMO RPG game with fps component, it would indeed be the case.

Drakaisyl, on 17 December 2013 - 04:27 AM, said:

Well I think we have to stay tuned what comes out when they introduce it.And to be realistic...who actually believes that the Clans are done within the next half year ? In the end it could be that we have to mount IS weapons into our Daishi's,TimberWolves as there won't be Clan Weapon avaiable.And antother thing will be a certainly unplayable Nova...I mean 12 ER Medium lasers + Ghost Heat = Player destroyed by overheat.

And most sadly there will be cuts in the mechs aswell...I mean they will never let a 50 Ton Nova run around the Battlefield with 95 km/h or a TimberWolf with the same speed...

So ye...let's see with what PGI surprises us...

Seriously, if it's beyond sb ability to fire only 6 of them/0,5 second, that player would be destroyed fairly quickly, regardless.

Edited by ssm, 17 December 2013 - 07:50 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Marack Drock, on 17 December 2013 - 07:24 AM, said:

Then why argue with me? I just said let's just take out Lore because we won't be able to follow it. You just said that Lore won't work so let's just take it out of the game. PGI can just add in famous battles. Making a game that claims to abide by Lore yet is so far from it anyways is going to be bad. Drop Lore if we are going to ruin it anyways!

I am here because of the Lore Marack. I could play any Giant Robot game, but I fell for this game, for the universe, the characters and the Giant stompy robots.

Take away the Story and Its not MechWarrior.

[Karl Streiger]

regarding the nova....
well the 12 ER-MLAS Nova with 18 DHS work in TT....
you have the oportunitys:

• fire 7 Laser into the front with no overheat
  
• 6 Lasers into the left or right - with increased firing arc
  
• fire all 12 ER-MLAS in a case of emergency -
  
  • and hope that you roll a 8+ (chance at 42%)
    
  • wait a single turn

So in MWO: without Ghost Heat and 5 heat per shot -> 60 heat - threshold is at ~ 61 its possible
With Ghost Heat its not possible you have to stagger fire - maybe 4 x 4 x 4

• Important
  
• you must fire all 12 lasers before any laser did recharge
  
• firing all 12 shouldn't overheat your Mech
  
• after alpha strike and a break of 16-20sec you should be able to deliver the next 12 shot punch

It will work - under this cirumstances - although it will be better to mount 6 or 8 ER-MLAS and take heatsinks instead
will work much better

However - 12 ER-MLASER that hit the same spot? Heck even 12 Small Lasers would be devastating

[Pariah Devalis]

Let us not get into the realm of real world applications of clan tech in player optimized builds. For example a Timber Wolf, prime hard point configuration: 20 DHS, 2x erppc, 2x ermlas, 2x ssrm6, 1x erslas, 2 tons ammunition. 27.5 tons used. 78 point alpha strike, or 30 pinpoint semi spammy ranged output. 44 pinpoint mid range damage output. While moving at 90 after speed tweak.

I am sorry. Clans nerfed what? Clan mechs as currently setup will either be insanely powerful or insanely fragile. Armor needs tweakability and weapons might need their damage values adjusted.

[Karl Streiger]

Pariah Devalis, on 17 December 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

Let us not get into the realm of real world applications of clan tech in player optimized builds. For example a Timber Wolf, prime hard point configuration: 20 DHS, 2x erppc, 2x ermlas, 2x ssrm6, 1x erslas, 2 tons ammunition. 27.5 tons used. 78 point alpha strike, or 30 pinpoint semi spammy ranged output. 44 pinpoint mid range damage output. While moving at 90 after speed tweak.

I am sorry. Clans nerfed what? Clan mechs as currently setup will either be insanely powerful or insanely fragile. Armor needs tweakability and weapons might need their damage values adjusted.

And you don't even have used the ability of the omni slot swap....although the prime has overall a really good loadout.

However even without swap - a 4 UAC 10 DireWolf would be interesting too...or wait its possible but ineffective to have 3 GaussRifles - or 5 UAC 5s...with OmniTech Swap 6 UAC 5s are possible .or 6 UAC 2s with backup of 8 energy weapons (for examle SMALL LASERS)

OH F**K
Dire Wolf B - 3 GaussRifles plus 2 ER-PPC (only 20shots) but with its 30DHS and NO DAMAGE NERF -> this beast is able to pound 2-4 Alphas - well that must be the Mech Joseph want to see aye?
....the HUD does rocking...WTF (what did hit me)....where is the next cover....there target Dire Wolf B 600m....i must hit him...You were killed.....

Only few Assaults will survive 2 Alpha Strikes....so everything will die in 4seconds....Great Death Aproval!
The worst Dire Wolf config will become the best

Edited by Karl Streiger, 17 December 2013 - 08:37 AM.

[ssm]

Marack Drock, on 17 December 2013 - 08:12 AM, said:

There is no story to this game! This game will be community warfare which will violate Lore with every planet conquered. There can't be true lore in this game. That's the point.

Yes, exacly, that's the point. It simply can't! It's FPS shooter, not some kind of online LARP, we're not reenacting Lore, just play around with stompy robots.

And that should be starting point of any discussion about things like balance or Clan implementation.