437 replies to this topic

[MagnusEffect]

LINK TO OTHER FUN POLLS:
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WARNING: Below is a somewhat biased editorial of mine explaining the topic. Please take with a grain of salt.

Alpha Strikes in their previous forms have always seemed to benefit "boats" the most. For those not in the know: a "boat" is a mech fitted only with multiples of the same weapon (laser boats & missile boats being the biggest offenders). A player simply had to fit as many of the same weapon, with the same range, move to that optimal range, sit, and fire. In reality (in canon) this seldom was a good idea; mechs were usually fitted with a mix of different weapons to handle different enemies & situations (big guns for mechs, smaller stuff for lighter targets, machine guns for infantry, flamers for burning stuff, etc.)

The toll an alpha strike takes on mechs firing them has been incredibly downplayed in every previous MW game, especially in larger mechs. Mech electrical and mechanical systems are VERY complicated things. In the IS, they are also commonly hundreds of years old. An alpha strike triggers a MASSIVE surge of energy through all systems. All the heatsinks in the world won't IMMEDIATELY disperse that much heat. The more weapons involved in an alpha strike, the more likely something is going to break or cause unbearable heat. In canon, they have been reserved for acts of desperation or a final all-or-nothing killing blow. Alpha strikes should NOT be a primary method of attack.

To be honest, I always thought boating was kind of boring. However, it became a thing of necessity in many instances. I thought I would come up with some different solutions to solve this "saminess" that previous MW titles all seemed to suffer. Wanted to let you guys vote on them. Let me know if you can think of another good idea I should add.

Perhaps the best solution is *some combination* of the above?

Edited by MagnusEffect, 30 November 2011 - 06:12 AM.

[Andrew Harvey]

I'd like to see the Alpha Strike as a High-Risk, High-Gain option. Doing it may fry your BattleMech's targeting system and force shutdown, but it also might cause so much damage that the enemy 'Mech will fall over.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

perhaps it could be a charge up or something?
like it takes x seconds to prep all weps for an alpha strike?
then there's a cool down not only on the guns, but for the
AS 'counter' as well.

[rollermint]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 14 November 2011 - 09:47 PM, said:

perhaps it could be a charge up or something? like it takes x seconds to prep all weps for an alpha strike? then there's a cool down not only on the guns, but for the AS 'counter' as well.

MWO will quickly devolve into a game of hide-and-poptarting between two teams since everyone will forced to hide to charge up, pop, alpha strike and hide again coz they couldn't do anything else in that time. It'll actually make the problem even worse.

AS has always been a staple of MW games but it directly contributes to the problem of boating. I would vote for limiting the number of weapons that you can fire at a single time. 2-3 max perhaps. Limit Alpha Strike > boating problem solved and you can actually allow some customisation of mechs since no one can actually unload 16 medium lasers at a single time.

[MagnusEffect]

rollermint, on 14 November 2011 - 10:00 PM, said:

MWO will quickly devolve into a game of hide-and-poptarting between two teams since everyone will forced to hide to charge up, pop, alpha strike and hide again coz they couldn't do anything else in that time. It'll actually make the problem even worse.

AS has always been a staple of MW games but it directly contributes to the problem of boating. I would vote for limiting the number of weapons that you can fire at a single time. 2-3 max perhaps. Limit Alpha Strike > boating problem solved and you can actually allow some customisation of mechs since no one can actually unload 16 medium lasers at a single time.

Yeah, limiting the Alpha Strike based on number of weapons fired is kind of what I'm leaning towards personally as well. The timer could be a "simpler" fix, but it would HAVE to be a somewhat long timer (I don't know... a minute or two maybe?) to prevent what you said from being the norm, definitely.

Maybe something in between: the more weapons fired in a single alpha strike, the longer it takes until it becomes available again.

Edited by MagnusEffect, 14 November 2011 - 10:52 PM.

[rollermint]

I understand. However, even with a long timer, as long as the ability to AS your whole arsenal exists, people will exploit that. AS simply discourages people from actively engaging in combat since its human nature to minimise risks/maximise profit as much as possible. Its just that survival instinct kicking in. Both teams will start out avoiding combat to charge up and will only start pop tarting once their cooldown is up. Its going back to square 1. It really changes nothing.

The only way to really effectively deal with the boating/poptarting problem is to cut off the chief cause, alpha strike. Or at least severely limit it to a couple of weapons at a time.

I would actually like to see the game to revolve around players planning and forming effective/sustainable firing patterns based on their own personal combat tactics/style instead of trying to find ways on how to AS 12 lasers or 5 PPCs. It'll make for a much more interesting game, imho than a series of hide-and-pop battles all day long.

[Caballo]

You can't limit the number of exact weapons to 2 or 3, basically because an atlas (and it's not the only one) carries 4 mid lasers, and, by the way you're approaching it, i guess 6 of a kind is excessive for you.

Maybe a way to "normalize" the situation is a heat system wich adds a penalty for every weapon fired starting from the third one. Tho you're not going to dodge an autocannon boat (if that thing exists) this way.

[CaveMan]

Why not just get rid of alpha strike/group fire altogether?

Why do we need it? It's not there in the source material (there are optional rules to link weapons together but it's hardwired, not something you can just toggle on and off), the only reason we're contemplating it is because it's been in the past several MW games.

Incorporate a slight cooldown delay between firing weapons (250 milliseconds would work) so that people can't just create a macro to get around it.

Edited by CaveMan, 14 November 2011 - 10:31 PM.

[rollermint]

Caballo, on 14 November 2011 - 10:27 PM, said:

You can't limit the number of exact weapons to 2 or 3, basically because an atlas (and it's not the only one) carries 4 mid lasers, and, by the way you're approaching it, i guess 6 of a kind is excessive for you. Maybe a way to "normalize" the situation is a heat system wich adds a penalty for every weapon fired starting from the third one. Tho you're not going to dodge an autocannon boat (if that thing exists) this way.

Then use chain fire for your med lasers group.

I'm actually in favor or removing group fire/Alpha strike altogether but I only said a couple max for AS just in case it sounded too severe for some people. In any case, they can always allow players to specify their "Alpha Strike" groups in the mech lab, players then can choose 2-3 weapons max, assign it to a hotkey and go to battle. Tough luck if a player have 4 med lasers. If you want to utilise all of them, use chain fire, like I said.

Its the only way to solve boating that i can think of. Limiting mechs to canon varaints will only last a year max and once Omni mechs start appearing, it can be expected that players will be allowed to customise their mechs a little more liberally. And then you get the boating issues again.

[ice trey]

I think that there should be the "Cone of Fire" element that's getting tossed around on the board included in this game. Of course, whether or not it shows the "Expanding reticule" or just a standard crosshair is irrelevant to me, just so long as sniping at range is imperfect, and that the more violent the movement of the firer (Stationary gives smallest cone of fire, Jumping gives largest cone), the harder it should be to hit the target. This eliminates the problem of jump sniping.

As for alpha striking or group shots, I feel that they should be able to be fired all at once, but with each weapon fired being treated as an individual shot in the CoF, so that while a single AC20 will deal 20 damage to a location, four medium lasers (Granted all four hit) will most likely be spread out over the target. This helps to prevent small bore weapons from acting like heavier guns.

..But at the same time, should also dissuade the MWO team from making medium and small lasers into extremely-weak-but-quick-to-recycle weapons. The medium laser is meant to be the workhorse weapon, not a doorstop a-la Mechwarrior 4.

[collosus]

I think it should be a combination of both, reduction in customization (for instance, maintaining hardpoints) and to give a litte bit more punch on certain weapons, although the last option would likely depend on the aiming system.

[MagnusEffect]

Caballo, on 14 November 2011 - 10:27 PM, said:

You can't limit the number of exact weapons to 2 or 3, basically because an atlas (and it's not the only one) carries 4 mid lasers, and, by the way you're approaching it, i guess 6 of a kind is excessive for you.

Maybe a way to "normalize" the situation is a heat system wich adds a penalty for every weapon fired starting from the third one. Tho you're not going to dodge an autocannon boat (if that thing exists) this way.

It is more of a general concept idea. I'm not sold on any specific number (I don't even see it as the best solution). Maybe the bigger the weapon, the smaller the "max number" can be. Example (just an example): max of 3 for Ac/20s & Gauss rifles, max of 4 for AC/10s & PPCs, max of 5 for Ac/5s & Large Lasers. This idea still feels a little "boaty" to me, though.

Ultimately, I think the best solution is going to be some combination of the above ideas.

Edited by MagnusEffect, 14 November 2011 - 11:00 PM.

[Kudzu]

Using cone of fire would help, since part of the AS problem is having everything guaranteed to hit the same location. Getting rid of the mechlab, though it will be a really unpopular decision, for both IS and clans will also help. Mechlab was really meant for solo play, when you add it to multiplayer it creates a lot more problems than it solves. There are enough designs and variants out there that people can find something they like and learn to use its strengths to cover its weaknesses. (Or perhaps it'll even foster better teamwork! "Hey, if you cover me from range with your Archer I'll handle anyone who gets close with my Hunchback").

[Hardway]

ice trey, on 14 November 2011 - 10:43 PM, said:

I think that there should be the "Cone of Fire" element that's getting tossed around on the board included in this game. Of course, whether or not it shows the "Expanding reticule" or just a standard crosshair is irrelevant to me, just so long as sniping at range is imperfect, and that the more violent the movement of the firer (Stationary gives smallest cone of fire, Jumping gives largest cone), the harder it should be to hit the target. This eliminates the problem of jump sniping.

I already have the large cone of fire. I really suck at jump sniping Been a noob for 10+ years and can't see things changing any time soon.
On the other hand FFP will restrict a lot of jumpers except the really good ones.

Edited by Hardway, 14 November 2011 - 11:10 PM.

[MagnusEffect]

updated: added the "remove AS" option. thanks guys for pointing that out.

[benefedaykin]

I don't see why this is a problem...

Missile boats are going to get creamed outside of their comfort zone. Use close range on LRM boats and keep SRM boats at a distance.

Ballistic boats with only one weapon type are going to run out of ammo FAST so their longevity on the battlefield is next to nothing.

Laser boats can be a pain, but they suffer huge heat problems and the recharge times for PPCs and Large Lasers are usually so long that a single miss can mean the difference between winning and losing a fight.

If you are going to create a mech dedicated to one type of weapon system then there are going to be some big drawbacks. It won't have the tactical versatility of a balanced mech. In these cases, it comes down to pilot skill and the luck of the draw. Don't take them on on their terms (fight an LRM boat up close) and bring friends.

If an Awesome comes along and 1-hit-kills your medium mech with 5 PPC rounds to the face, then that's what happens. It's called the Awesome for a reason. He's not going to be able to do it again for a few minutes though because of the heat, so if you have teammates with you, he's pretty much screwed.

As long as the devs put in the potential for destroyed weapons and components based on a mechs heat, then I see no problem with alphastrikes and "boat" mechs. If not, people are just going to override shutdowns for that second alpha and it will get out of hand...

Anyway, 9 times out of 10 playing as a team and not as a group of individuals will provide a counter to any missile/laser boat mechs and their alphastriking craziness. Even with pubbers, you'd be surprised how much teamwork you will see on the battlefield once they realise who the biggest threat is. The hypothetical Awesome pilot above is going to get killed a lot once people realise the game he's playing...

Edited by benefedaykin, 14 November 2011 - 11:21 PM.

[MagnusEffect]

benefedaykin, on 14 November 2011 - 11:13 PM, said:

I don't see why this is a problem...

Missile boats are going to get creamed outside of their comfort zone. Use close range on LRM boats and keep SRM boats at a distance.

Ballistic boats with only one weapon type are going to run out of ammo FAST so their longevity on the battlefield is next to nothing.

Laser boats can be a pain, but they suffer huge heat problems and the recharge times for PPCs and Large Lasers are usually so long that a single miss can mean the difference between winning and losing a fight.

If you are going to create a mech dedicated to one type of weapon system then there are going to be some big drawbacks. It won't have the tactical versatility of a balanced mech. In these cases, it comes down to pilot skill and the luck of the draw. Don't take them on on their terms (fight an LRM boat up close) and bring friends.

If an Awesome comes along and 1-hit-kills your medium mech with 5 PPC rounds to the face, then that's what happens. It's called the Awesome for a reason. He's not going to be able to do it again for a few minutes though because of the heat, so if you have teammates with you, he's pretty much screwed.

As long as the devs put in the potential for destroyed weapons and components based on a mechs heat, then I see no problem with alphastrikes and "boat" mechs.

Okay.. my apologies about being a bit nitpicky but I have to respond to this:

Missile boats should get creamed outside their confort zone. By definition, a missile boat is designed to engage at a specific range. They are essentially mobile artillery (SRM boats being decidedly very short range artillery).

If a ballistic boat actually manages to spend all its ammunition (with most of them being hits) before dying, he has probably already dealt a MASSIVE amount of damage to the enemy. Running out of ammo on a ballistic boat is kind of their thing. Most mechs in canon have some energy weapons for backup. The Hunchback is a prime example.

I've never seen a Laser Boat in MW4 that was *really* hampered by 6 or 7 Large Lasers. Hell, the poptarting of laser boat novacats, madcats, and Daishis are legendary and were used to great effect.

An Awesome can't fit 5 PPCs EVER. That *should* be an impossibility. A Masakari can (or should) barely fit 4 PPCs. I'm not against boating, but I am VERY much against all weapons having pinpoint accuracy to the degree that they hit the same place, at the same time, all the time, everytime!? you pull the trigger.

Bottom line: The MW franchise's current method is not the answer in my opinion. A sentiment apparently most agree with...

Edited by MagnusEffect, 14 November 2011 - 11:40 PM.

[Aeolian]

Alpha strikes are one of those things that came out organically, and should be left as such. Gameplay and tactics are not things you can code in, and coding them out makes for a less interesting game.

Want to reduce alphas? Balance heat well, balance weapons well and balance customisation well. Don't impose arbitary restrictions.

Other than that, Alphas are like snipers or campers. They're legitimate tactics that can be balanced well or balanced poorly. Using rules to impose a certain style of gameplay is counterproductive. Balance it well and it won't be a problem.

Edited by Aeolian, 14 November 2011 - 11:38 PM.

[Vach]

Even without the Alpha strike coded in, people will still find ways to do that, well in a way.

See, most gaming keyboards have the ability to do macros, which means pressing one macro key will allow someone to do an "Alpha strike" even if it is not allowed in a group in game.

[CaveMan]

Vach, on 15 November 2011 - 12:05 AM, said:

See, most gaming keyboards have the ability to do macros, which means pressing one macro key will allow someone to do an "Alpha strike" even if it is not allowed in a group in game.

I addressed this one in my earlier post. Build in a cooldown time between weapon shots and macros become no more useful than firing the weapons one at a time. Probably less useful actually because the macro will keep activating shots long after the target has moved out of the sights.