61 replies to this topic

[BillHones]

The first and foremost combat role of the light mech is to intercept the enemy teams light mechs. When the atlas has to disengage the fight to cover his rear, the battle is lost. Stick with the group and scout the incoming enemy fire and locate the crouching tiger hidden erllas spider. Flank to engage him. Pursue until compromised, then return. Repeat. Hunt in a group. Do your best if you are alone. Multiple lights can overwhelm. If you spot one by his lonesome while scouting, feel free to flank and engage.

[1453 R]

Ahem: no. Spoken like a true Atlas pilot.

The first and foremost combat role of a light ‘Mech (in a Puglandia environment) is to be the light ‘Mechs the other team’s lights are trying to intercept. Anti-light mob defense duty is often better left to Shadow Hawks or Kintaros which can mount appreciable Streak batteries, or conversely to Oxides which provide active anti-light defense by finding the lights and jacking them over before they become an issue.

That said…if all your light ‘Mechs are doing is hanging around the Fatlas’ ankles making sure it can brawl free of the worry of having to defend itself, your light ‘Mechs are wasting their greatest asset for the sole and specific purpose of making you feel better. Denying a light ‘Mech the use of its mobility by trying to tether it to the deathball is a great way to deny your team a lot of damage, as well as disrupted, distracted enemies.

I spend a lot of time in smaller, faster ‘Mechs, and I can guarantee you that I do more good sticking it to the bad guys right in the bumbum than trying to chase down other squirrels. A hint for you – I’m not any better at hitting the things than you are. Bring Streaks if you really need lights to die, and if that’s not good enough for you, then just hope that someone else on the team is running a Streaker. They’re popular at the moment, you should have a pretty good chance of it.

Edited by 1453 R, 05 February 2014 - 03:22 PM.

[BillHones]

How did you know I pilot an atlas? Crystal ball? I own 25 mechs. Guess how many are not med or light? I'm a med pilot first and light second. See that there storm badge?

You cant shoot in the bumbum if I'm shooting your bumbum. Which I did with great effectiveness today. You don't just stand there. You have more important roles. When it comes time for combat, this is what you need to do first.

[Victor Morson]

He means you don't sound like an experienced recon pilot is all. Which is true.

Lights need to focus on base rescue, caps, scouting, etc. At least, typical combat lights like the Jenner or the ECM Spider.

A lot of folks are playing those ECM 2x ERLL Ravens/Cicadas or an ERL+2xML Spider that exist to hit & fade from the main body, rather than fighting other lights. It's definitely a viable, alternative style for light piloting.

[1453 R]

I own thirty-six 'Mechs, if we're counting effectiveness by total time played/money spent. I've got you by five even discounting the two extra levels of Phoenix 'Mech I've got. But that's a dung argument, so let's leave it there, hmm?

The flaw in your argument is inherent in your second post, and frankly inherent even in the original phrasing of your point - if both team's lights are doing nothing but anti-light defense, as one would expect of such a role being "the Light 'Mech's primary Combat Role", then nobody's lights are getting anything done and we may as well all be in Metalanders. A team only needs light defense if the enemy team has aggressive, bum-shooting light 'Mechs making life difficult for assault pilots. At which point, yes - the team with the less effective light 'Mechs, or without a dedicated Streak 'Mech, typically has to recall them in order to try and fend off the enemy team's harassers. This is a disadvantageous situation - you want your light 'Mechs off in the enemy's ranks sowing chaos and causing ulcers. If they're not...then why the heck did you bring the silly things?

Edited by 1453 R, 06 February 2014 - 05:17 AM.

[ginger]

Can I fight off other Light Mechs in my Ravens? Yes. Am I good at it? Yes.

That being said, it feels to me like my game is wasted when I spend most of the match dueling with other Lights. Every laser beam I fire at another 35 and under is a beam NOT going into the backside of a fat, sloppy, and slow target.

My best matches, time and again, are the matches where I am way off by myself in a 3L using favorable terrain to harass and distract the [Scrap] out of the flank or second row firing line of the opposing team. If I've got 2,3, heck if I'm really lucky 4 or more Heavy/Assault Mechs chasing me around I'm already putting that match in the win column because if they're shooting at me they're NOT shooting at my team.

So is anti-light protection of the big dogs part of the job description? Yes. Is it a waste of a good light pilot's skills? Yes.

[stjobe]

BillHones, on 05 February 2014 - 01:45 PM, said:

The first and foremost combat role of the light mech is to intercept the enemy teams light mechs.

No. The first and foremost combat role of the light is to be the 'mech that the enemy team has to intercept, react to, and fend off. Protecting the fatties is the job of the Medium, not the Light.

BillHones, on 05 February 2014 - 01:45 PM, said:

When the atlas has to disengage the fight to cover his rear, the battle is lost.

You should tell your Mediums that they're not doing their job properly then. A Light is wasted tonnage in close formations; they usually don't have the range to contribute to the offense, and they definitely don't have the armour to weather the return fire. They need maneuvering room, not being tied to some Fatlas ball-and-chain.

BillHones, on 05 February 2014 - 01:45 PM, said:

Stick with the group and scout the incoming enemy fire and locate the crouching tiger hidden erllas spider. Flank to engage him. Pursue until compromised, then return. Repeat. Hunt in a group. Do your best if you are alone. Multiple lights can overwhelm. If you spot one by his lonesome while scouting, feel free to flank and engage.

This on the other hand is relatively good advice (except for the slightly condescending "feel free" - I don't need your permission to engage the enemy, sir) for a Light, although it misses completely the most profitable (both individually and for the team) job a Light can do: Distract and draw the enemy fatties' fire off their own fatties. If that enemy assault is trying to locate the Light that's hammering his rear armour, he's not putting his 40+ alpha into my assaults.

Remember, a Light is more effective against an Assault than against another Light.

Edited by stjobe, 06 February 2014 - 07:36 AM.

[BillHones]

this is a primary strategy. you always need to adjust your tactics. by using if's and but's you just are agreeing with me. if teams are balanced with one jenner a piece, and they both are shooting the other team in the butt. they are doing nothing for either team. when one light intercepts the other teams, that team gains an advantage in harassing, capping, recon, etc.

we are also not talking about the light mechs primary roles of recon, capping, psychological warfare, etc etc.

we are also not talking about what other mechs should or should not be doing.

we are talking about the light mechs combat role.

Edited by BillHones, 06 February 2014 - 11:00 AM.

[stjobe]

BillHones, on 06 February 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

this is a primary strategy. you always need to adjust your tactics. by using if's and but's you just are agreeing with me.

No. Let me make it perfectly clear I do NOT agree with you. You are wrong.

Hunting the other team's Lights is NOT the primary job of a Light.

Why? Because a Light-on-Light fight is detrimental to both Lights as they are roughly evenly matched. Whoever wins the fight will likely be seriously damaged and will have its combat efficiency reduced severely. On the other hand, a Medium has more armour, more firepower, and the speed to take on a Light and win without being half scrapped in the bargain.

A Light taking out an 80-100 ton Assault by sneaking behind it and coring it has taken out 3-5 times its own weight, and can do so without taking much damage itself - meaning it can do it again to the next Assault.

BillHones, on 06 February 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

if teams are balanced with one jenner a piece, and they both are shooting the other team in the butt. they are doing nothing for either team. when one light intercepts the other teams, that team gains an advantage in harassing, capping, recon, etc.

If both team's Lights are off chasing each other, nobody gets an advantage; they cancel each other out. If on the other hand my team's Mediums take care of the enemy Lights, our Lights are free to wreak havoc in the enemy's rear - which either results in our Lights getting a few kills, or the enemy reacting to them and giving our main force the kills instead. Either way, we win.

BillHones, on 06 February 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

we are also not talking about the light mechs primary roles of recon, capping, psychological warfare, etc etc.

Thankfully, since few or none of those are even present in MWO.

BillHones, on 06 February 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

we are talking about the light mechs combat role.

There's no other role in MWO at present, and there hasn't been since closed beta. Trust an 18-month veteran of the Commando when I tell you that going after the other team's lights as your "primary mission" will lose you more games than you win.

Edited by stjobe, 06 February 2014 - 11:25 AM.

[Fang01]

A good light pilot tries to force an 11 on 8 early, distracts enemies in close combat, and cleans up late.

[Xiphias]

As a light pilot since early CB and having played on a comp team for over a year. The primary role of light mechs usually should not be light on light. Let me explain why.

The current "best" light mech in the game is the Jenner F with 5-6 ML. You could also argue for the D but let's use the F for the time being (also Ember!). Against a heavy mech you can easily get your entire beam on target and can focus down crit locations pretty easily. Against another light pilot it is much harder to stay on target for the full duration and very hard to hit the same location against a good pilot who is shielding.

I personally love light duels and consider myself to be a competent pilot in one. However, against another excellent pilot a light duel takes a long time. Usually, you get interference, but on the few times that I get to duel other good light pilots 1-on-1 the main battle is over and both of us are badly damaged before either one of us is able to land a killing blow. (With streaks the time to kill is usually significantly less, groups will also reduce it.)

In the time it takes me to duel a good light pilot I can kill any other mech in the game (unless it kills me first). In a battle imagine I am shooting at heavy targets while the enemy light is shooting at me. I can put 90-95% of my damage on heavy targets. This distracts them from shooting at the atlas (reducing their effective fire) and causes them to die faster. The enemy light that is chasing me can only get maybe 30-50% effective damage on me due to me spreading damage and weaving in and out of mechs and cover.

The result is that at the end of the match I am moderately damaged and at least part of the heavy mechs on my team are still up. On the enemy team there is a single light mech who has mostly fresh health. I now can fight the light with the support of my team and can keep him from picking apart crit targets as effectively or from speed capping.

This is the reason that lights are better suited for fighting heavies than for fighting other lights. Another good reason is my ability to drop artillery on the enemy team. While there are occasions where fighting light-on-light is beneficial, often it is better to fight heavier targets.

If I want to win a match I avoid an even battle whenever I can. Good teamwork > greater than good pilot skill (within limits of course)

[AlmightyAeng]

OP...no...think of it this way. 80% of the time, skill being equal...

Light = Rock
Medium = Paper
Heavy/assault = scissors

You don't bring a rock to beat a rock. You bring paper. Then you take the rock and bash the scissors in the ass repeatedly.

[BillHones]

everyone is still talking if's, but's, and assumptions, that this and only this is the only role you can have. I also didn't feel the need to point out that engaging another mech has to be in your favor. apparently I do. engaging another mech has to be in your favor.

to all of you that think they you are supposed to shoot the big guys first, what happens when I shoot you? now you have no lights. I can now do what you set out to do, to your team.

[1453 R]

Dude.

Seriously.

Lights are bad at the job you're describing.


You stated that the primary role of a light 'Mech in a MWO match is to act as a guardian for your team against enemy light 'Mechs, and this should be the task they focus on first and foremost. Not only is this incorrect, it is also self-defeating - if both teams' lights were to follow your advice, neither team would ever need to defend against light 'Mechs, and the light 'Mechs that were on the field would spend all game not accomplishing a damn thing.

Light 'Mechs are offensive in nature. Even the anti-heavy machines that are meant to fight alongside the main body, like the Dualarge Ravens, are not there to protect their assault 'Mechs. They are there to wreak havoc on enemy fatties with their long-distance weaponry. Medium 'Mechs are the G.I. of the MWO battlefield, and are easily the machines best suited to swatting enemy lights. Friendly lights need to be sneaky, disruptive guerrillas who're constantly finding ways to make the enemy's life miserable because we have neither the armor nor the firepower to stand in the brawl with the rest of the deathball and support-from-the-front.

Light 'Mechs, instead, will support from the rear - the enemy's rear, that is. And by support I mean nightmarishly violate, and by the enemy's rear I mean up the enemy's rear. With my fist. With lasers on the end of it.

[John Buford]

BillHones, on 06 February 2014 - 02:42 PM, said:

everyone is still talking if's, but's, and assumptions, that this and only this is the only role you can have. I also didn't feel the need to point out that engaging another mech has to be in your favor. apparently I do. engaging another mech has to be in your favor.

to all of you that think they you are supposed to shoot the big guys first, what happens when I shoot you? now you have no lights. I can now do what you set out to do, to your team.

I don't think he gets it. Lights go off and cause havoc, Mediums are the ones who stay back and play support to the Heavy's and Assault's. I pilot a Jenner most f the time and when I see another Light while it is fun to toss some shots at him I have learned the hard way to bypass him and go for the slow lumbering Mech's. I have also learned to fear that Medium hanging back just behind the big guys.

[Xiphias]

BillHones, on 06 February 2014 - 02:42 PM, said:

everyone is still talking if's, but's, and assumptions, that this and only this is the only role you can have. I also didn't feel the need to point out that engaging another mech has to be in your favor. apparently I do. engaging another mech has to be in your favor.

to all of you that think they you are supposed to shoot the big guys first, what happens when I shoot you? now you have no lights. I can now do what you set out to do, to your team.

Since you don't seem to understand the points that I made earlier or want to listen to anyone else in this thread I will try this again.

There are different combat roles for light mechs. One is attacking other light mechs another is attacking heavies and assaults.

Using specifically a Jenner-F:

A good pilot will do more damage to heavies than to lights. A light will take longer to kill than a heavy. In the the time it takes the enemy light to kill a good light pilot that light will have done significantly more damage to the other team. Once the enemy team is dead all the heavies and assaults can now shoot at that light.

Do you know what the best weapon against lights is? Hint, it's not streaks or lights. It''s high alpha with good aim. It takes one good shot to open a leg or torso. Once that's done a light can easily finish off the damaged light.

No ifs, ands, or buts. No assumptions.

I'm not saying that there is only one correct combat role for lights. What you are saying is that:

BillHones, on 05 February 2014 - 01:45 PM, said:

The first and foremost combat role of the light mech is to intercept the enemy teams light mechs.
Snip

This is simply wrong. I along with many others here have explained why attacking heavy mechs is also a valid role that is as important, if not more than intercepting enemy lights.

What you are saying is that there is only one primary role. I am arguing that they are multiple roles, just that attacking heavies is the better one in most cases. Which of us is being closed minded? You are refusing to accept any point of view but your own. You are talking in ifs, buts, and assumptions. What proof do you have of your point?

If you want people to accept your point of view I would recommend using logic, facts, and correct grammar and spelling. Otherwise don't expect people do simply take your word for it. There's are reason that the majority holds the belief it does.

[MungFuSensei]

To put it more simply: The goal of a light pilot is to exploit the weaknesses of the enemy team.

LRM boat killin' yer dudes? Go shoot him in the butt.

Enemy team all zerged up past the halfway point of the map? Cap.

Enemy hunkered down in cover keeping your teammates suppressed? Run right through them and drop an arty flare.

Disruption of formation, assassination, and exploitation.

[DrRedCoat]

MungFuSensei, on 06 February 2014 - 11:33 PM, said:

To put it more simply: The goal of a light pilot is to exploit the weaknesses of the enemy team.

LRM boat killin' yer dudes? Go shoot him in the butt.

Enemy team all zerged up past the halfway point of the map? Cap.

Enemy hunkered down in cover keeping your teammates suppressed? Run right through them and drop an arty flare.

Disruption of formation, assassination, and exploitation.

Been piloting a Raven from the start. And this says so much in so little words that it's beautiful.

[Ertur]

Mediums are supposed to keep lights off the fatboys, that's part of THEIR role. Your lights are supposed to be annoying and flanking the other team, scouting and providing locks, trying to lure people in ones and twos back to the main pack ("chase the squirrel"), and so on. As has been mentioned here a dozen times already.

[BOWMANGR]

See, this thread is exactly why people can't understand why Mediums exist. So, lets learn something here.

MEDIUMS are the ones covering the Atlas from lights and supporting him when brawling. Lights are scouts, cappers, fast response teams and harassers like the occasional ER LASER Raven. Also, now that the NARC is getting buffed they will gain another useful role. A NARC'ed mech which doesn't use cover will be scrap metal in seconds from LRMs. People refusing to use AMS to gain 1.5 ton more for weapons are going to have a hard time, I'm calling it right now.

When I'm in my Stalker, in every single match the first thing that I want to know is where the enemy is so that I can gain a good position. I assume any good pilot wants the same. What mech is PERFECTLY suited to do that job for the team? Yes, a light mech. When a match starts and I see my team's light mechs wandering off around the map instead of actively searching for the enemy team I'm sad. At that moment we are giving up the single most important info a combatant can have. Recon information. This can turn matches around. Lights should try to pass recon info to their teammates ASAP when a match begins, not follow an Atlas.