174 replies to this topic

[Victor Morson]

This is not a discussion if you like Heat Scaling/Ghost Heat or not. For the record I think it is the most incompetently written system I have ever seen in a long history of observing game design and it hurts my brain. But that is either here nor there.

This thread is about something else. If Heat Scaling is going to stay, it needs documentation in game and it needs a UI both in mechlab and in the cockpit.

Right now, there is a trial 'mech - a new users first experience to the game - that will get ludicrously hot because you need to manage the half-second delay Ghost Heat enforces, yet there is not a single thing in game whatsoever.

In fact, there's not even a sticky on the forums, or a youtube video from PGI explaining it. Absolutely nothing.

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So what should be done?

In Mechlab: Weapons should specifically list their Heat Scaling attributes. New players should not have to check Smurfy's for this information, where it is both neatly laid out, but also lists exact heat penalties from going over. New players should not have to access the forums and search around to find Smurfy's to even understand why their builds are running way hotter than listed.

Given the wild penalty difference in Ghost Heat this is every bit as importantas stats like Range and Recycle. If you violate Ghost Heat with, say, 5 Streak/2s.. it's not even an issue, but if you fire 2 AC/20s, prepare to shutdown/explode. This is to say nothing of the LRM locking system new players are steadily confused on, firing setups like 1x LRM20 3x LRM10 without realizing that creates 4 times LRM20 Ghost Heat; they simply know their 'mechs are very hot and have no clue WHY!

In The Cockpit: An indicator NEEDS to be added to the cockpit to clearly indicate when the half-second delay is up. Right now people are forced to use macros to chain together builds like this, or to simply try to gauge in their head. And again, new players will have absolutely no idea what's going on, and without this indicator, will have no idea when it is safe to fire and when it is not.

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I'd like it removed. Back when we could have polls, a clear 85%+ people wanted it removed. Only a handful of people like it, and many of them don't understand how/why it failed, and that the 6 PPC boats would not return even if the system was removed.

But to keep this system and then provide absolutely no UI to it, or indicators and simply use it to punish people who were never told why they are being punished is ludicrous. A new player that buys a Jagermech and tries to setup a twin AC/20 setup is likely to kill themselves repeatedly and never figure out why until they uninstall, the way things are right now... and again, you put trial 'mechs out there that violate Ghost Heat!

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In summary: This is awful for everyone. It's bad for new players who don't know what's going on. It's based for veterans who know about the mechanic, but don't know to check Smurfy's for exact details or know the exact limits by heart (again, we had to learn from an external fan site). It's bad for competitive pilots who are forced to run external software to time shots because the game fails to provide ANY indicator when it's actually safe to fire.

If Ghost Heat is going to stay, GIVE IT A FREAKING UI.

Edited by Victor Morson, 07 February 2014 - 12:50 PM.

[DaZur]

No.

I've addressed this elsewhere but the reality is virtually every single game that relies upon "data" to drive it's functional game-play mechanics, also manipulates that data in the name of influencing balance and or obtaining specific nuances out of play mechanics.

In the absence of knowledge of "ghost-heat" for most new players it's simply accepted as a nuances that needs to be learned and dealt with, in much the same way a virtual aircraft pilot learns to handle stall characteristics of a given aircraft.

"We" who have been around for a long enough time to see what we had before versus post Ghost Heat implementation appreciate the impact because we are intimately close to it... can see it, feel it... In particular because we know it's there.

Edited by DaZur, 07 February 2014 - 01:06 PM.

[Victor Morson]

DaZur, on 07 February 2014 - 12:51 PM, said:

No.

No, Heat Scaling shouldn't be documented in Mechlab or in the cockpit, and should continue to surprise newbies, while forcing veterans to check Smurfy's (an external site) and use Macros (an external program to time the shots) because the game sure doesn't?

$10 says you got so caught up in white knighting Ghost Heat you didn't even read what the actual post was about.

Edited by Victor Morson, 07 February 2014 - 12:54 PM.

[Bhael Fire]

I agree it need to be better documented in game. However, I'd rather that it would be removed completely and a new, linear and logical heat system be introduced.

If high-damage alphas are the target for ghost heat, it seems more logical to simply lower the heat threshold for shutdown and increase heat dissipation so that mechs heat up quickly, but cool off just as quickly. If a mech is forced to shutdown from heat, heat dissipation should be reduced as a penalty for going over the limit.

This would make more sense and would be pretty obvious to even new players.

[Victor Morson]

Again while I made my views clear on the system, I don't want to debate the system directly here.

I just think it's time that, if they're resigned to keeping it, they actually document it and add proper indicators into the game. It's a MAJOR system with MAJOR ramifications and the only way to understand it is to dig through the forums, read an old post for last year, and then finally find Smurfy's for a nice chart of the information laid right out.

A chart that should be in the game itself.

[Bhael Fire]

Victor Morson, on 07 February 2014 - 01:03 PM, said:

I just think it's time that, if they're resigned to keeping it, they actually document it and add proper indicators into the game.

Agreed. It's absurd that it's not already...which makes me think it's not the final design and it could be on the butchering block internally. One can hope anyway...

[Dymlos2003]

Bhael Fire, on 07 February 2014 - 01:08 PM, said:

Agreed. It's absurd that it's not already...which makes me think it's not the final design and it could be on the butchering block internally. One can hope anyway...

Exactly what I was thinking

[Nicholas Carlyle]

This is really just common sense stuff. They know it, they just have it so low on the priority list it isn't going to happen right away.

[Roadbeer]

Victor Morson, on 07 February 2014 - 12:46 PM, said:

In fact, there's not even a sticky on the forums, or a youtube video from PGI explaining it. Absolutely nothing.

I'll just leave these here

http://mwomercs.com/...general-update/
http://mwomercs.com/...cale-the-maths/

Found on the front page of here.

http://mwomercs.com/...-command-chair/

Not disagreeing that it couldn't be better documented, But to assert that there is nothing, is entirely disingenuous.

[DaZur]

Victor Morson, on 07 February 2014 - 12:54 PM, said:

$10 says you got so caught up in white knighting Ghost Heat you didn't even read what the actual post was about.

Wow... you wasted no time whipping out your White Knight card.

Yeah, I read it but I'm not even going to waste my breath further debating this with you... It's a well know fact that you have a irrational bug up your orifice over Ghost Heat and not I nor anyone else can carry a rational discussion with you over it without you taking moral high ground defense.

Next time you want to climb on your soap box don't asked opinions on something you don't want to hear opinions on... You're like the adage "You have a right to your opinion so long as it's the same as mine".

Good grief.

Edited by DaZur, 07 February 2014 - 01:31 PM.

[Mechteric]

My only (hopeful) guess is they are actually planning on removing ghost heat once they feel weapons no longer need it, and why waste time on it if its just temporary. Already weapon heat is high enough without hitting the ghost heat barrier, so perhaps its almost there. One can only hope!

[FactorlanP]

CapperDeluxe, on 07 February 2014 - 01:28 PM, said:

My only (hopeful) guess is they are actually planning on removing ghost heat once they feel weapons no longer need it, and why waste time on it if its just temporary. Already weapon heat is high enough without hitting the ghost heat barrier, so perhaps its almost there. One can only hope!

I don't see that happening unless they totally rework the heat scale and heat elimination systems. As welcome as that would be, I don't see it in the works.

Every balance change they make now is wasted effort if they are going to scrap the whole heat system we have now.

They would have to start balancing from scratch again.

If that is the plan, they should announce it. Then tell us that we're all going to have to just live with the current balance until they roll out the new heat system.

A lot of us would jump for joy if they did that.

I would probably spend some money even.

[Wolf Ender]

DaZur, on 07 February 2014 - 01:26 PM, said:

Wow... you wasted no time whipping out your White Knight card.

Yeah, I read it but I'm not even going to waste my breath further debating this with you... It's a well know fact that you have a irrational bug up your orifice over Ghost Heat and not I nor anyone else can carry a rational discussion with you over it without you taking moral high ground defense.

Next time you want to climb on your soap box don't asked opinions on something you don't want to hear opinions on... You're like the adage "You have a right to your opinion so long as it's the same as mine".

Good grief.

It really doesn't matter if Morson has a problem with the game mechanic of ghost heat...it's immaterial to the discussion of whether or not the FACT that "ghost heat" exists OUGHT to be disclosed to the user if not in the cockpit then OBVIOUSLY in the mechlab.

It seems more likely to me that the only reason you DON'T want full disclosure, transparency, about Ghost Heat is because you are afraid that if people are more aware of it that there will be more calls for PGI to get rid of it... you're letting fear drive your logic and reaching unreasonable conclusions as a result.

the reality is that we don't know what the result would be... indeed, maybe more players would be aware of the heat penalties and realize why they are overheating and start calling for PGI to get rid of ghost heat and find a different way to balance their weapons...

or... alternatively it might assist new players in learning how to deal with ghost heat or how to better configure their mechs to mitigate the effects of ghost heat... thus improving them as players and helping them perform better on the battlefield...

that would be a GOOD thing. better pugs...fewer 12 / 0 stomps overall better game experience for both veterans (who already know how to deal with ghost heat) and newbs alike.

what i see here is someone who knows the quirks of the system who is trying to preserve his advantage over the new, less knowledgeable players by denying them access to valuable information about game mechanics that is seriously hampering their ability to compete with you.

[Sandpit]

Tutorials overall could be much better.

You don't need the maths though, you just need to know that boating x weapons causes x heat unless you wait .5 seconds. That's what needs to be explained. Nothing more.

It SHOULD be documented in game for new players and those that don't visit the forums much if at all but it IS documented in several posts throughout the forums.

[Helmer]

Agreed. In that it needs to be made abundantly clear when 'Ghost Heat' will effect your build as well as a brief overview for new players.



Cheers.

[DaZur]

Wolf Ender, on 07 February 2014 - 01:45 PM, said:

It really doesn't matter if Morson has a problem with the game mechanic of ghost heat...it's immaterial to the discussion of whether or not the FACT that "ghost heat" exists OUGHT to be disclosed to the user if not in the cockpit then OBVIOUSLY in the mechlab.

It seems more likely to me that the only reason you DON'T want full disclosure, transparency, about Ghost Heat is because you are afraid that if people are more aware of it that there will be more calls for PGI to get rid of it... you're letting fear drive your logic and reaching unreasonable conclusions as a result.

the reality is that we don't know what the result would be... indeed, maybe more players would be aware of the heat penalties and realize why they are overheating and start calling for PGI to get rid of ghost heat and find a different way to balance their weapons...

or... alternatively it might assist new players in learning how to deal with ghost heat or how to better configure their mechs to mitigate the effects of ghost heat... thus improving them as players and helping them perform better on the battlefield...

that would be a GOOD thing. better pugs...fewer 12 / 0 stomps overall better game experience for both veterans (who already know how to deal with ghost heat) and newbs alike.

what i see here is someone who knows the quirks of the system who is trying to preserve his advantage over the new, less knowledgeable players by denying them access to valuable information about game mechanics that is seriously hampering their ability to compete with you.

Really? That's what you derived from my post... Victor is the one who posed the question of if it's ludicrous that heat scaling is not documented... I just offered my opinion.

Truth is I have no horse in the race. Few of my builds are overtly impacted by GH and the few that do, I'm more than capable of managing them.

Fact is as much as Victor hates the GH implementation, I hate overly complicating the explanation of things that for most players, the mechanics behind it does not make a hill of beans because they are not really that complicated. I see GH in the same vein... It's there, one learns to manage it and that's that.

For a large percentage of the US population Hot Dogs are a tasty treat until one become knowledgeable to the contents and the mean of manufacturing.

I see the same thing with Ghost heat... Regardless of how egregious people attempt to paint it IMHO, it's not nearly as so to players... particularly new players... until someone convinces they it's a fermenting dog pile.

I'm sorry to say half of the complaints launched at this game by new players amounts to nothing more than parroted rhetoric without context... because well, everyone else is complaining about it, I might as well do it to. GH is no different IMHO...

Edited by DaZur, 07 February 2014 - 02:29 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

I was ready to slam you on this one, Vic, because you pretty much always angry about something and ready to fly off the handle at slightest whim but I'll concede the point. This does need to be documented somewhere in the game. Even if PGI changes it, it needs to change with the change. That it doesn't exist, let alone us only having one introductory video afte almost two years of the game being available, is pretty weak.

[DaZur]

I'm all for some explanation, something to give context to the mechanic...

That said, some GUI based convoluted explanation to something that is as simple as 2 + 2 = 4 unless you fire them in alpha, then they equal 5 does not need a full blown GUI to preface the mechanic.

Edited by DaZur, 07 February 2014 - 02:30 PM.

[OneEyed Jack]

DaZur, on 07 February 2014 - 02:14 PM, said:

Really? That's what you derived from my post... Victor is the one who posed the question of if it's ludicrous that heat scaling is not documented... I just offered my opinion.

Truth is I have no horse in the race. Few of my builds are overtly impacted by GH and the few that do, I'm more than capable of managing them.

Fact is as much as Victor hates the GH implementation, I hate overly complicating the explanation of things that for most players, the mechanics behind it does not make a hill of beans because they are not really that complicated. I see GH in the same vein... It's there, one learns to manage it and that's that.

For a large percentage of the US population Hot Dogs are a tasty treat until one become knowledgeable to the contents and the mean of manufacturing.

I see the same thing with Ghost heat... Regardless of how egregious people attempt to paint it IMHO, it's not nearly as so to players... particularly new players... until someone convinces they it's a fermenting ****.

I'm sorry to say half of the complaints launched at this game by new players amounts to nothing more than parroted rhetoric without context... because well, everyone else is complaining about it, I might as well do it to.

You are simply wrong. This is a system in which there are whole worlds of difference between understanding it and not understanding it. The sustained fire rate of weapons is massively impacted by GH, and if new/uninformed players only know that the mech is getting hot, but don't understand why it's getting hot, then they don't know how to change their actions to improve performance. A game like this requires maximization of potential to compete, and you're blatantly offering up the opinion that those not "in the know" should be held back from that.

Get your head out of your arse.

[Trauglodyte]

DaZur, on 07 February 2014 - 02:26 PM, said:

I'm all for some explanation, something to give context to the mechanic...

That said, some GUI based convoluted explanation to something that is as simple as 2 + 2 = 4 unless you fire them in alpha, then they equal 5 does not need a full blown GUI to preface the mechanic.

Maybe a video? The chart(s) that they provided were a mess. But, you could take 5 min and explain it all.