26 replies to this topic

[Darian DelFord]

The problem with the plague of AC's and gauss is not convergence or pin point damage, Its the amount of Ammo. With games lasting less than 10 minutes in most cases there is not a need to stock as much ammo as you would in a longer campaign. Cut ammo in half and as sure as Bob is your uncle the plague of AC's will go away. When Matches last 20 to 30 minutes then put the ammo back to their normal value. But that is the root of the problem right there.

You will then see alot of the FoTM AC builds backing down to a more manageable and sustained load out.

Thoughts?

[Bront]

Ammo on ACs is 50% higher than TT because it "needed to last longer"

removing that 50% would put it more on part with HS for energy weapons (which took a dual hit of less useful and more needed due to ROF).

I wouldn't mind trying it, it would be different.

[Rebas Kradd]

A lot of mechs run out of ammo in-game, so I wouldn't say cutting the amount is the solution...to say nothing of cutting it by HALF.

Automatic rearm costs might help, but that would discourage grinding and lead to a lot of energy boats for noobs.

Autocannons are supposed to be powerful...

[East Indy]

I'm not sure how much it would impact poptarting, since in the most popular current meta the AC/5s are used to supplement shots from PPCs with comparatively low rate of fire. However, it would definitely change how autocannons are viewed as a go-to, low-heat, long-range, high-suppression weapon — in what way? That would be for the test server, just to see.

[Darian DelFord]

Rarely do I see AC boat's run out of ammo. It really is the majority of the problem. Matches are to short. One of the balance issues for AC's has always been running out of ammo on a long campaign. If you do not have other weapons you are screwed. Half is merely a starting point. I seriously think though if you re-evaluate the amount of ammo per ton, alot of the AC's around every corner will go away.

I would love to see in 24 hours how many AC's drop vs Lasers.

[Khobai]

Won't fix anything

People will just take more ammo

Problem is convergence

[Varent]

Darian DelFord, on 09 February 2014 - 03:40 PM, said:

When Matches last 20 to 30 minutes

When this happens I would quit. I play this game for quick 5-10 minute matches so im not tied to the computer for an hour. I doubt anyone wants to sit there for 20 minutes if they are dead and have there mech tied up for that long.

In addition the quick game play makes this game exciting and brings in a younger crowd wich is needed for the game to survive.

[OneEyed Jack]

"Herp, derp. If we make Ballistics run out of ammo so fast that they're useless, I bet people will use less of them."

Figure that out all on your own, did ya?

[Darian DelFord]

Varent, on 09 February 2014 - 04:05 PM, said:

When this happens I would quit. I play this game for quick 5-10 minute matches so im not tied to the computer for an hour. I doubt anyone wants to sit there for 20 minutes if they are dead and have there mech tied up for that long.

In addition the quick game play makes this game exciting and brings in a younger crowd wich is needed for the game to survive.

Originally CW was meant to make matches last that long, with true objectives and the such. Now whether or not that is still in play I have no idea. I am sure skirmish mode will still be there for the quick games

OneEyed Jack, on 09 February 2014 - 04:05 PM, said:

"Herp, derp. If we make Ballistics run out of ammo so fast that they're useless, I bet people will use less of them."

Figure that out all on your own, did ya?

Yup Yup, rocket science and all that

[FupDup]

The problem with nerfing ammo is that you unintentionally nerf several non-meta weapons in the process:

1. LRMs
2. SRMs
3. SSRMs
4. AMS
5. AC/2
6. AC/10
7. LB 10-X
8. Gauss

Contrary to popular belief, Autocannons are not actually that overpowered. The LB 10-X in particular is utter trash, and the AC/2 and AC/10 are sub-par. Only the AC/20, Ultra 5, and AC/5 can qualify as true meta material. And the AC/5 itself is a very anemic weapon; it only seems effective because everything around it has been smashed with the mjolnir nerf hammer. So, you end up shafting most of the weapons in the game just to hurt 3 weapons--1 of which isn't even that powerful.

[Serpieri]

Ballistics fire faster

Khobai, on 09 February 2014 - 04:04 PM, said:

Won't fix anything

People will just take more ammo

Problem is convergence

The cause of most of the issues in this game - that has led to charge mechanics, ghost heat, broken dhs, and Jj supremacy - just to name a few.

[BrockSamsonFW]

I disagree. Reducing ammo will fix a symptom of the problem and not the problem itself.

Autocannons in particular having 3x range instead of 2x range, screen shake, no huge tracer leading the enemy back to you, no heat problems, and a few other minor things it really is no wonder that they are the best weapons.

I don't think convergence will ever be fixed so I'd rather see some "soft" nerfs to balance things out. For example...

• Increase the chance of ammo explosions but reduce the power of them. Right now it's a very slight chance for essentially total destruction. I think I've died from it once. It would be a lot better if explosions were actually common but only did a small (but noticeable/meaningful) amount of damage. Perhaps 20-30% chance but only for 5-10 damage per ton. Not enough to kill you but enough to weaken you and make you think about the drawbacks.
  
• Give lasers a small chance to cook off and destroy(but not explode) or an even smaller change to explode(but only with 5-10 damage) ammo THROUGH armor. Increase the chances for holding the laser(s) on the same location for longer duration.

[Matthew Ace]

What is needed is increased chance of ammo explosion to make CASE actually useful, even if it meant reduced ammoboom damage. I also would love the idea of through-armor crits as well; it would make SRMs and LBX scary.

It may be worthwhile to consider slowing down ROF on autocannons to increase TTK as well.

Edited by Matthew Ace, 09 February 2014 - 08:50 PM.

[dario03]

Khobai, on 09 February 2014 - 04:04 PM, said:

Won't fix anything

People will just take more ammo

Problem is convergence

I won't say it for sure would fix anything but it would definitely have a pretty big affect. Its probably not to uncommon for some AC boats to have 6-10 tons of ammo. Having to double that amount of ammo would require a significant reduction in something else on the mech. Though this would obliviously affect the pure AC boats more than the poptarts with the PPC/AC combo.

[MungFuSensei]

I don't feel safe ammo wise unless I'm carrying 3-4 tons. That's a minimum of 9 tons for an AC2. Nine tons for a maximum of 450 damage from that weapon. The weight only goes up from there. Autocannons require a significant investment of tonnage. That really puts a limit on your build.

If you really wanna change ACs, get rid of the big bullet design. Go back to the MW3 style of "clip" shots. AC2 fires 2 bullets, AC5 fires 5, AC10 fires 10, etc. This causes a moderate chance of spread, but the succession of shots is very tight (think of an LB10X, but instead of a shotgun blast it's a stream).

This would maintain their effectiveness against heavier targets, but decrease their effectiveness against lights. It'd be harder to use them as poptart weapons, since as you come down you'd be distributing the stream of rounds over a wider area.

HOWEVER: Time To Kill will become irrelevant once dropship mode comes in, as we'd have "respawns" (sorta). If TTK becomes less relevant, people won't feel so bad about dying so quickly.

[NextGame]

Darian DelFord, on 09 February 2014 - 03:40 PM, said:

The problem with the plague of AC's and gauss is not convergence or pin point damage, Its the amount of Ammo. With games lasting less than 10 minutes in most cases there is not a need to stock as much ammo as you would in a longer campaign. Cut ammo in half and as sure as Bob is your uncle the plague of AC's will go away. When Matches last 20 to 30 minutes then put the ammo back to their normal value. But that is the root of the problem right there.

You will then see alot of the FoTM AC builds backing down to a more manageable and sustained load out.

Thoughts?

I don't see how this would improve gameplay

Lasers need a buff more than anything else.

[nemesis271989]

Darian DelFord, on 09 February 2014 - 03:40 PM, said:

The problem with the plague of AC's and gauss is not convergence or pin point damage, Its the amount of Ammo. With games lasting less than 10 minutes in most cases there is not a need to stock as much ammo as you would in a longer campaign. Cut ammo in half and as sure as Bob is your uncle the plague of AC's will go away. When Matches last 20 to 30 minutes then put the ammo back to their normal value. But that is the root of the problem right there.

You will then see alot of the FoTM AC builds backing down to a more manageable and sustained load out.

Thoughts?

I love it.

But cutting down ammo in half or adding rearm, you automatically giving favor to PPC that will lead for another PPC fest
Did you think about it?

[Corvus Antaka]

no. the problem is the amount of ammo AND the lack of heat that allows these guns to do endless DPS without heat restraints that all other weapons suffer.

it's fairly obvious an imbalance exists simply from the heat potential differential across certain guns.

[Sephlock]

Do people not see that a lot of these nerfs will just encourage poptarting/steptarting?

[Bilbo]

Been using two tons of AC/20 ammo on my Atlases for quite some time. Are you trying to say 14 shots is too many?