58 replies to this topic

[Abivard]

Willard Phule, on 07 March 2014 - 04:17 PM, said:

But I don't WANT to help them. What's my incentive to drive the short bus? Do I get extra Cbills to tell them that they need to lock targets? Do I get extra XP to teach them how to group the LRMs on their Trial Stalkers? No, I don't.

IT'S NOT MY JOB.



With the level of intelligence of some of these clowns, I'd be surprised if they can read or write...let alone get involved in the forums.



Good for you. You're a paragon of virtue and a pillar of patience. I, however, am not.



No, PGI should have some sort of mandatory training scenarios...not just this "here's how you move forward" crap. With a little "do you wish to learn how to play the game" message.



Dude. You have no clue. I don't mind the "overheat shutdown conga" line of Trial Stalkers...at least they provide 85 tons of extra armor I can hide behind if I have to.

Evidently, the MM is set to fill the slots with EVERY FREAKIN' ELO LEVEL PLAYING...there's no point of even having Elo at all. I get stuck with morons that ask questions like "how do I move forward?" or "what do you mean, lock targets? How do I do that?"

Whatever. Look, it's real simple and it's a life lesson. If you don't want to be called a noob, don't act like one.

In real life, if you drive like an idiot...you get called an idiot. If you can't manage to get a fast food order correct, the guy you're giving it to is going to call you an idiot. Get used to it. If I have to "get used" to playing with these cross eyed, drooling, one chromosone too many cretins, then they can "get used" to being called noobs.

You shouldn't throw rocks when you live in a glass house.

[Sandpit]

Just to point something out

There's a huge difference between a noob and a new player. I see players that have played since CB I consider a "noob" because of their playstyle, not because of their length of play or experience. You have to understand that distinction before you can discuss really.

Joe Derp has played for 12 months. Jumps in a trebuchet horribly built and designed. Derps out in the open, gets blown up 45 seconds into the round. Noob

Joe Derp Jr. has played for a week. Jumps in a mech that's poorly designed and tries to do their best by watching, asking questions, learning from mitakes, etc. New Player

[Willard Phule]

Abivard, on 07 March 2014 - 07:31 PM, said:

You shouldn't throw rocks when you live in a glass house.

Oh, I absolutely agree. I must obviously be a noob myself. All the evidence points to it. I mean, since the whole Elo/MM system is working perfectly...and I end up on teams full of both "New Players" and "Noobs"...I must be one myself. Granted, I'll give credit where credit is due...99% of us are "noobs" as well, since we all end up with these guys on our teams.

Sandpit, on 07 March 2014 - 07:57 PM, said:

Just to point something out

There's a huge difference between a noob and a new player. I see players that have played since CB I consider a "noob" because of their playstyle, not because of their length of play or experience. You have to understand that distinction before you can discuss really.

Joe Derp has played for 12 months. Jumps in a trebuchet horribly built and designed. Derps out in the open, gets blown up 45 seconds into the round. Noob

Joe Derp Jr. has played for a week. Jumps in a mech that's poorly designed and tries to do their best by watching, asking questions, learning from mitakes, etc. New Player

Granted, I'll give you those distinct classifications (as you may have noticed from above)....but, ultimately, what's the difference? I'm not talking in learning ability or sincerity...I'm talking about hard, quantifiable numbers. That's what the whole Elo thing is about, right? And Elo is the driving factor of the teams that get put together...at least, from what we've been told.

Joe Derp Jr. has the Elo of someone that has just barely made it past his first 25 Cadet missions. He's close to the 1400 range.

Joe Derp has been playing for a year, but is so terrible that his Elo is close to the 1400 range as well.

Sure, Junior is trying to be better....but Elo doesn't take "tryhard" into consideration. He and his dad should both be in teams of people that are in about the same skill range. Why are they getting put into groups with higher Elos...and ultimately causing that team to fail?

And, before you say it, Sandpit....I'm going to make 2 points.

1 ) Yes, my opinion. Got it. Yours may be different. Whatever. Look around you. Read the forums. I'm NOT the only one experiencing this stuff. And since EVERY opinion is valid, then take out a piece of paper and start making tick marks in columns. Odds are pretty good that those of us that think the matchmaking system and the preponderance of noobs/new players/idiots being put into matches with experienced players is overwhelming as compared to the "everything is happy and fluffy" crowd to which you belong.

2 ) It is NOT my place to teach people. I should NOT be expected to hold their chubby, snot covered, little hands and help them along. I did my time teaching complete Derps how to shoot (spent several years as an NCO) and I'm done with it. If you wanna do it, then fine. Take your white knight banner over to PGI and volunteer your services to be a special ed teacher on a special ed server and convince them to hook you up. Until then, we are both going to have to agree to disagree.

Edited by Willard Phule, 08 March 2014 - 04:09 AM.

[Daggett]

Most guys who call others noob or similar are noobs by themselves.

Good players either keep their mouth shut or give good advice without insulting...

Edited by Daggett, 08 March 2014 - 04:26 AM.

[Willard Phule]

Daggett, on 08 March 2014 - 04:24 AM, said:

Most guys who call others noob or similar are noobs by themselves.

Good players either keep their mouth shut or give good advice without insulting...

Incorrect, sir. POLITE players either keep their mouth shut or give good advice without insulting.

A person's personality traits have absolutely no effect whatsoever on their abilities.

Don't believe me? Ask all the ex-military types around here about that. Most "professional" Soldiers/Marines/Sailors...at least the ones in combat oriented jobs...have fairly rough personalities. They don't sugar coat things, they just call 'em like they see 'em. And as for worrying about the delicate sensibilities of "new recruits?" Are you serious? Hammer them until their sensitivity breaks, then make a Soldier out of them.

[Xeno Phalcon]

Willard Phule, on 08 March 2014 - 04:34 AM, said:

Don't believe me? Ask all the ex-military types around here about that. Most "professional" Soldiers/Marines/Sailors...at least the ones in combat oriented jobs...have fairly rough personalities. They don't sugar coat things, they just call 'em like they see 'em. And as for worrying about the delicate sensibilities of "new recruits?" Are you serious? Hammer them until their sensitivity breaks, then make a Soldier out of them.

That is a dangerous road to take in such a benign topic, not to mention a terrible analogy.

--------------------------------

A better one would have been sports, where they tend to be quite rough with one another on the court/field but are much nicer to one another off it for the most part. (all things considered)

[AlexEss]

Twinkie D Lite, on 06 March 2014 - 05:17 PM, said:

nOObs are fine, we all started somewhere. Its just the stupid ones you cant fix.

But that is the thing... You can´t fix nOObs... newbs or newbies... they learn... noobz are people who simply refuse to learn. *waves cane around and mutters something about how in his days.*

[Willard Phule]

Xeno Phalcon, on 08 March 2014 - 04:52 AM, said:

That is a dangerous road to take in such a benign topic, not to mention a terrible analogy.

--------------------------------

A better one would have been sports, where they tend to be quite rough with one another on the court/field but are much nicer to one another off it for the most part. (all things considered)

Even the sports one isn't a good analogy. Both the military and sports teams require a certain amount of training before anyone's allowed to "take the field." There is NO training in MW:O other than that ridiculous tutorial and the 25 cadet rounds.

Which is my whole point. If you are a "raw recruit" (meaning you haven't got a clue what you're doing), then you should be grouped up with other "raw recruits." You shouldn't be thrown into the mix with the more experienced players.

Here's your sports analogy. Bob loves hockey. He's a HUGE fan. He just bought a pair of skates and a stick...then went down to the BlackHawks' training camp. Is there ANY chance in hell that they're going to let him play? Any at all? No experience coming up through the farm teams...never played in High School...no experience, whatsoever. Think it's gonna happen?

But, it's not fair. Bob's feelings are hurt. He's gonna go cry now. Some white knight needs to come hold his hand and give him a tissue. Fine. That ain't gonna be me. That SHOULDN'T be me. It's NOT my job.

On the flip-side of that coin, when my 12 year old son told me he wanted to play MW:O, I told him I'd teach him. And I did. We went through the tutorial TWICE...then into the training grounds to get a feel for how the movement worked, how to lock targets, how to group weapons, and how to manage heat (we went on every single map so he could get a feel for it). Took a couple of hours and he's a reasonably decent player...far better than the caliber of "noob/new player" that I'm complaining about.

So, why did I bother to invest that much of my own time and personal attention to teaching someone? Because he's my son. It IS my job to help him. But, I didn't allow him to go live and play with other people until he had a grasp of what to do so he wouldn't make a fool of himself and be ridiculed.

I think the military analogy is a lot closer than the sports one...since, after all, we're talking about an activity that requires shooting and destruction, but whatever.

It's the same there. Even though you've been through Basic Training and AIT (don't know what they call it in the Marines and Navy), you still only have a BASIC grasp of what to do in combat. Granted, it's more than the average High School graduate knows, but it's still only basic. Which is why I'm guessing that, oddly enough, they call it "Basic Training." You know the military...lowest common denominator and all.

But, some guy straight out of training gets sent to a combat zone. They don't usually throw the guy outside the wire on patrol immediately (well...experiences may vary), they keep him inside the wire to work with his new squad...so the leadership can see where his strengths and weaknesses lie, so they can train him on room clearing procedures, etc. Sending someone that's clueless outside the wire is a good way to get people killed. Or, at least, that's been my experience.

Edited by Willard Phule, 08 March 2014 - 05:25 AM.

[Xeno Phalcon]

Now what if someone else called your son a noob? Gonna drag him back to the training grounds? Point out what he did wrong? Or point out how the other guy is full of it.

Not all these kids have their daddies waiting to pat them on the backs and tell them its okay.

[METAL SEPARATOR]

Willard Phule, on 06 March 2014 - 04:26 PM, said:

Don't Like Being Called A "noob?"

Personally - I don't care. It's a dam online video game.

[HeavyRain]

Yeah, this is a game, which you play sitting in front of your computer, with a bottle of Coke next to your monitor.
Save me the military comparisons and save me the lectures about how you can't stand the noobs that cramp your style. Playing make-believe soldier is one thing, expecting people to treat a silly shooting game like they just joined the navy seals is pretty damn sad.

[Charons Little Helper]

Abivard, on 07 March 2014 - 07:31 PM, said:

You shouldn't throw rocks when you live in a glass house.

People shouldn't throw rocks in general - that's just mean.

And glass houses seem like a really bad idea. The privacy issues seem like too big of a con - not to mention the bad insulation...

So... don't live in glass houses, and don't throw stones.

[Willard Phule]

Xeno Phalcon, on 08 March 2014 - 05:27 AM, said:

Now what if someone else called your son a noob? Gonna drag him back to the training grounds? Point out what he did wrong? Or point out how the other guy is full of it.

Not all these kids have their daddies waiting to pat them on the backs and tell them its okay.

Oddly enough, no. You see, both of my boys grew up with a dad that didn't coddle them. They learned that if you're not smart enough to avoid trouble, then be tough enough to deal with it. I don't have to "drag him back to the training grounds," "point out what he did wrong" or "point out how the other guy is full of it." I gave him the tools he needed to learn how to play the game and to get better. That's all I did. I gave him tools.

Unfortunately, PGI doesn't even do that. It gives new players an instruction manual written in a language they don't understand and says "that's good enough...get out there and play! Oh, and buy a hero mech while you're at it."

But, that being said, he gets frustrated just like everyone else. In his case, his #1 complaint is "why do they keep putting me in matches where everyone else is so much better than me? I keep getting killed in the first two minutes of every match." Kinda the opposite of my complaint, but there you have it.

As for the other remark, that's not only condescending but it's insulting. I don't pat my kids' backs and tell them everything is OK....ever. I teach my kids to be smart and if that's not possible, then to be tough. When they go out in the real world, noone's going to hand them a job, a family and a house. They're going to have to work hard for it. That's kind of the point of life.

[Willard Phule]

HeavyRain, on 08 March 2014 - 05:44 AM, said:

Yeah, this is a game, which you play sitting in front of your computer, with a bottle of Coke next to your monitor.
Save me the military comparisons and save me the lectures about how you can't stand the noobs that cramp your style. Playing make-believe soldier is one thing, expecting people to treat a silly shooting game like they just joined the navy seals is pretty damn sad.

Beer, not Coke, but I get your point.

Oh, absolutely. And treating this game like it's a professional sport is just as ignorant...but that seems to be the most used analogy.

And, to take your statement one step further...expecting people to have even the most fragmentary clue of how to play a "silly shooting game" is also, apparently, pretty damn sad.

Look, the whole point of the thread I started...and granted, it was started after a few beers and after having been stuck with people that asked questions like "How to move forward?" or "What means lock targets?"...was simply that if you don't want to be called a "NOOB," then don't act like one. Simple as that.

If being called a noob offends you, then read some of the "help" strings in the forums. There's LOTS of good stuff out there...from the most basic information to advanced stuff. It's REAL useful. Don't want to take the time to read them and become a better player? Get used to being called a "noob." It's real simple.

[B0oN]

As a fulltime nooboon I have to tell this one thing, then be gone again.

"Even a noob can be a boon"

Props to Mechwarrior Boon for carrying a good name .

[Daggett]

Willard Phule, on 08 March 2014 - 04:34 AM, said:

Incorrect, sir. POLITE players either keep their mouth shut or give good advice without insulting.

A person's personality traits have absolutely no effect whatsoever on their abilities.

Don't believe me? Ask all the ex-military types around here about that. Most "professional" Soldiers/Marines/Sailors...at least the ones in combat oriented jobs...have fairly rough personalities. They don't sugar coat things, they just call 'em like they see 'em. And as for worrying about the delicate sensibilities of "new recruits?" Are you serious? Hammer them until their sensitivity breaks, then make a Soldier out of them.

You were right if we were soldiers. But we are not, drilling/hammering is quite the opposite of gaming.
We all want to have fun here and as soon as someone is called names, his fun is often gone.

But tell him what he can do better without insulting him, and he probably will learn.
That's not sugar coating, that's showing respect to others.

Take the example with your son: Would you call him an idiot whenever he makes a wrong move? No, you would not because he is a human with feelings you don't want to hurt. You would tell him in a constructive way what he made wrong and how to improve.

The problem with online games is that we don't know each other. In real life a trainer knows how far he can push each of his guys. We however do not know. One could insult me, you and most others all day long, we don't care.
But there are always some guys with a less thick skin who take it too personally.


Oh, regarding Polite/good players:
Generally you are right, polite would be the better word.

But i have chosen good because i wanted to say that the good player thinks rational enough to know that calling someone a noob will not only change anything.
It will also hurt the whole team. In my experience, as soon as a team member is insulted, the whole team performance goes down the drain. The insulting guy is distracted with typing, the insulted guy too. Some guys support the insulter, some the victim. So there are not much guys left to play concentrated.

I've seen this over and over, especially in LOL where players love to flame the shit out of each other.

So to some degree, a good player does not flame. Not just because he is polite, but also because he knows of the consequences for the actual match.

[Willard Phule]

Daggett, on 08 March 2014 - 06:01 AM, said:

Oh, regarding Polite/good players:
Generally you are right, polite would be the better word.

But i have chosen good because i wanted to say that the good player thinks rational enough to know that calling someone a noob will not only change anything.
It will also hurt the whole team. In my experience, as soon as a team member is insulted, the whole team performance goes down the drain. The insulting guy is distracted with typing, the insulted guy too. Some guys support the insulter, some the victim. So there are not much guys left to play concentrated.

I've seen this over and over, especially in LOL where players love to flame the shit out of each other.

So to some degree, a good player does not flame. Not just because he is polite, but also because he knows of the consequences for the actual match.

Then I will be the first to admit that I am neither a "good" player nor a "good" person. Perhaps it's just my generation...I was brought up to believe that competition brings out the best performance in people, not handing out trophies to everyone for just participating. Maybe that's the whole problem with using Professional Sports as an analogy for MW:O...if they changed Professional Sports to where everyone got a trophy and they all just played for the fun of it, then there'd be a good comparison. Dunno. Don't care.

One thing that I will absolutely stand my ground on is that it is NOT my responsibility to teach new players. It's NOT yours, either. If you want to volunteer your time and patience to it, then I wish you well with your endeavors. Until PGI figures this out and puts together some kind of training scenarios that are required before playing with other people, that's the way it's going to be.

Me, I'm sick of it. I'm tired of saying the same thing over and over and over to a crowd of people that have neither the ability nor then inclination to actually learn. Yes, it's a game and not real. But games are supposed to be enjoyable....this one, more often than not, is an exercise in frustration as opposed to an enjoyable pasttime. Why do I keep playing the game? Why do I even bother to post crap like this on the forums? I've been in love with the BT universe going on 30 years now....and MW:O is the only game in town, unfortunately.

Edited by Willard Phule, 08 March 2014 - 06:25 AM.

[Daggett]

Willard Phule, on 08 March 2014 - 06:22 AM, said:

Then I will be the first to admit that I am neither a "good" player nor a "good" person. Perhaps it's just my generation...I was brought up to believe that competition brings out the best performance in people, not handing out trophies to everyone for just participating. Dunno. Don't care.

No, you are right. Competition indeed does bring out the best performance. But does this require calling other team-members names whenever they do something wrong or something that only looks wrong? I highly doubt that.

Willard Phule, on 08 March 2014 - 06:22 AM, said:

One thing that I will absol utely stand my ground on is that it is NOT my responsibility to teach new players. It's NOT yours, either. If you want to volunteer your time and patience to it, then I wish you well with your endeavors. Until PGI figures this out and puts together some kind of training scenarios that are required before playing with other people, that's the way it's going to be.

You are correct, it not our job to teach anyone if we don't want to. That's why i said in my initial post to don't say anything when we don't wanna say something constructive. From all options available, insulting someone is the worst one. It's better to say nothing instead and ignore the 'noob'.

Willard Phule, on 08 March 2014 - 06:22 AM, said:

Me, I'm sick of it. I'm tired of saying the same thing over and over and over to a crowd of people that have neither the ability nor then inclination to actually learn. Yes, it's a game and not real. But games are supposed to be enjoyable....this one, more often than not, is an exercise in frustration as opposed to an enjoyable pasttime. Why do I keep playing the game? Why do I even bother to post crap like this on the forums? I've been in love with the BT universe going on 30 years now....and MW:O is the only game in town, unfortunately.

The problem is that it's not the player's fault in most cases except the few who refuses to learn.
I think the majority indeed want to learn and improve.

PGI is the one who needs to do something about this. The most important thing is to not throw them together with more experienced players until they are ready. PGI should make sure they are no cannon fodder when entering the shark pond.

And second we need much better tools to organize in pugs. We need a full-scale battlegrid available all the time instead of pressing a button and being unable to control our mech meanwhile. We need to click on that battlegrid while fighting to issue orders and warnings quickly. We need predefined chat-messages like 'i need help' which sends a ping with my position to everyone.

The only reason i actually don't take the role of a pug lance/company leader is because the game does not give me a fast way to issue commands while actually fighting. I simply can't afford to open the battlegrid and be a sitting duck while getting an overview and issuing orders. I need a fully zoomed out battlegrid directly in my HUD like in WoT.
How cool would it be to simply right-click a player on the battlegrid and choosing "retreat, too dangerous" or selecting a light and choose "Distract enemy" or "Go capping"...

So prepare them controlling their mechs before entering competition and implement tools to allow more experienced players to guide them and i bet we will see much less 'dumbass'-moments.

Edited by Daggett, 08 March 2014 - 07:17 AM.

[METAL SEPARATOR]

There must be some player gradation introduced. There is no "BALANCE" currently. There are matches with random players but no actual balance. Maybe add different type of matches for different type of players -- like matches for serious players and arcade matches - something like that! So the players could select which gameplay they prefer - would they like to join a thoughtful match with sensible players or just jump in a match while talking on the phone!

[Nik Van Rhijn]

The main problem has always been giving new players a mid level Elo. They should start with zero with all the other newcomers and work their way up. The problem with that is people starting alt accounts for "seal clubbing", But if wins increase Elo fast for newcomers that won't be such a problem.
There are other reasons for alts such as differing factions and RP'ing.