36 replies to this topic

[Fut]

Jody Von Jedi, on 14 March 2014 - 07:46 AM, said:

Wrong on so many levels. Oh look a cliff, let's jump off it............

What an asinine response...
It's great that we have to spell every single little thing out on these forums.
Suppose I should have said "Any leader, who's intent is to better the performance of the team, is better than no leader."

Obviously a person who would order a move like in your comment is not an actual leader.

Think a little next time.

[Amsro]

Fut, on 14 March 2014 - 08:41 AM, said:

What an asinine response...

Think a little next time.

Your own response can be quoted and fed back to you in response.



You were unclear in your original post. Perhaps more thought when posting.

[Jody Von Jedi]

Fut, on 14 March 2014 - 08:41 AM, said:

What an asinine response...
Obviously a person who would order a move like in your comment is not an actual leader.
Think a little next time.

Oh come now, you did say "any leader".

Not all plans are sound, but I do give credit where credit is due. I've been in plenty of matches where the team worked together, followed orders and the outcome was a win. However, even a sound plan of attack can still be out maneuvered. I'm not talking about those types of "leaders", even when our team loses. I'm referring to the ones that are barking out orders and don't have a clue.

That's why I don't take command. I'm terrible at giving directions in the heat of battle and I know it. I'll share information or commend someone for fine piloting skills, but I don't take command.

Jody

Edited by Jody Von Jedi, 14 March 2014 - 09:12 AM.

[Fyrwulf]

I had somebody try to play commander by getting my attention with a medium laser in the back. He did it again when I was facing him and tried giving me an order. I told him to knock that shit off or I was going to put a gauss round through his cockpit.

The problem is that the military tactics that work in adverse situations, such as ambushes, are completely counter-intuitive. Also, God forbid you get pincered, because the result is as comical as it is sad (think sheep being herded by dogs). Or, and this is my favorite, a guy steps directly into your firing lane to put a couple medium lasers into an enemy that you were about to unload an alpha into, leaving your rear completely unsecured and open for attack. I want to join a unit just to get away from that crap and I've been playing less than a month.

[Void Angel]

strygalldwir, on 13 March 2014 - 09:14 PM, said:

"They go their own way, cooperate in a oppurtunistic fashion and freely sacrifice eachother,"
Co-operation relies on trust.
After being used as a sacrifice a few times by premades I would never take orders or advice from a member of one again. When the time comes for a fight I will check the maps and make my own decisions on where I can do the most good for the team
When you talk about herding you just reinforce my view.

He's not talking as a premade. He's trying to help other single players lend some cohesion to the PuG environment, which often is the chaotic mess he describes. So when you give him pushback, you're arguing against someone who wants to cooperate with you, not "use you as a sacrifice." Leading PuGs, as I can attest from long experience in several different game formats, is a lot like herding cats.

As you say, cooperation does rely on trust - so why are you telling us we can't trust you? That's what your last paragraph communicates. (If you're just stating the painfully obvious fact that everyone makes decisions, you have succeeded in being tedious, but you're not really communicating anything of note. You're a sentient moral agent - of course you're making decisions! Why not also tell us that water is wet, or that blue is a color?) The figure of speech "making my own decisions," means that you're holding back. You're not going to cooperate unless you see a personal advantage - you can protest if you like that you said "best for the team," but your attitude belies your wording. You're not going to follow him as he leads by example, and spends his own armor to tell you where the enemies are, not unless you think it's "best." Cooperation is best for the team, but you're going to do what you decide to do, and no doggone premade is gonna boss you around!

What you don't seem to have considered is that it is this kind of chaotic, anti-cooperative attitude that does cause many experienced premades to shun cooperation with pugs and use them as decoys and cannon fodder. The premades often feel vindicated by this practice, but their success is illusory - they think it's the PuGs' fault when the team fails, and their own superior tactics when it wins. In reality, they're just helping to create their end of the problem you've experienced in the past - a deliberate lack of cooperation due to cynicism and distrust. As long as you, and they, perpetuate the cycle, you'll continue to have bad experiences with premades, and those experiences will cause both you and they to distrust each other more - never realizing that you yourselves are each a source of the problem.

The amusing thing is that you don't matter. Unless you recognize someone who endorses this thread in-game, and sabotage them out of spite, you're going to be one of the infantile cats that the OP is herding. His entire post is a strategy for circumventing your exact kind of hostile, anti-social attitude in order to get you to actually give the cooperation to which you pay lip-service. So in the end, your objections don't count. You'll dance on your strings, the puppet of your own cynicism, and others will take you with them on their way to victory - or defeat.

[Void Angel]

Jody Von Jedi, on 14 March 2014 - 07:46 AM, said:

Wrong on so many levels. Oh look a cliff, let's jump off it............

Actually, the quote you're objecting to is quite correct. Cooperation is always preferable to no cooperation, and it really does help to pick one of the options available and go with it. Similarly, a mediocre plan, executed now and with violence of action, is always preferable to the perfect plan executed too late. Even if it turns out wrong in a given instance, cooperation is key - because that practice of cooperation will win you more games than it loses. If you see a better solution, use your words! But if the team doesn't listen, or there simply is no time, support your teammates' plan of action.

Even if it's wrong

[Jody Von Jedi]

Void Angel, on 14 March 2014 - 10:10 AM, said:

Actually, the quote you're objecting to is quite correct. Cooperation is always preferable to no cooperation, and it really does help to pick one of the options available and go with it. Similarly, a mediocre plan, executed now and with violence of action, is always preferable to the perfect plan executed too late. Even if it turns out wrong in a given instance, cooperation is key - because that practice of cooperation will win you more games than it loses. If you see a better solution, use your words! But if the team doesn't listen, or there simply is no time, support your teammates' plan of action.

Even if it's wrong

I don't think you saw my post below. I'll follow the leader and I'm happy to do so. I don't like taking the lead. But when the leader says to walk out across a field with no cover and the enemy team is waiting behind the next rock, I'm not going to step out and get my cockpit blown open.

Jody Von Jedi, on 14 March 2014 - 09:04 AM, said:

Not all plans are sound, but I do give credit where credit is due. I've been in plenty of matches where the team worked together, followed orders and the outcome was a win. However, even a sound plan of attack can still be out maneuvered. I'm not talking about those types of "leaders", even when our team loses. I'm referring to the ones that are barking out orders and don't have a clue.

[Mycrus]

1 line text chat.

UAV.

[CaptainDeez]

Deathlike, on 13 March 2014 - 10:04 PM, said:

One of the problems is that even if the plan is a good idea, if you die, people are far more reluctant to do it. Sometimes you have to remind them (as in, yell at them in caps) to do stuff... particularly at the choke points... like not going into the middle in Terra Therma. It helps a lot if you're in a premade, where people tend to follow the crowds and they tend to follow...

I want to point out something important here. If it's obvious your plan may get anyone killed within a few moments, it probably wasn't a good plan for a pug. The chances of them willingly charging the middle is slim. But the chances of them helping with setting up an ambush or pushing a flank are much better. If your pre-made are like the Spartans, the pugger's are like the Arcadians "They shout and curse, stabbing wildly, more brawlers than warriors. They make a wondrous mess of things. Brave amateurs....they do their part."

I tend to focus on finding safe routes to flanks when scouting, or identifying missing enemies. It's the 'fog of war' that keeps teammates skittish as well. If they know a flanking route is open because they see you their scouting ahead on radar, they tend to gravitate that way, especially if the middle of the battle is too hectic.

[CaptainDeez]

Magnakanus, on 14 March 2014 - 02:15 AM, said:

That asside a lot of the command and leadership suggestions are good, save perhaps the one where you shoot your own team and blame it on the enemy. I agree that getting a visual on the enemy and giving your team obvious visual clues like weapons fire are the best ways to redirect their attention.

I don't like shooting my guys for any reason either. That shouldn't be how you start communicating. But if nothing else is working and it's that or the enemies alphas in their backs... I'm sure they'll understand. It's just cracking a whip a bit.

[strygalldwir]

Fut, on 14 March 2014 - 06:22 AM, said:

Any leader is better than no leader.
If you're ignoring orders/cooperation/advice from somebody on your team, you're doing a disservice to your entire Company.
Especially if you're doing so purely because somebody let you down before. Time to pull up your big-boy pants and get over it.

You're here to fight, so do the best you can, and leave the drama at home.

Bulldust anyone can give orders that will be self serving or just straight stupid. There is no drama just a refusal to obey blindly

[Samual Kalkin]

Deathlike, on 13 March 2014 - 10:04 PM, said:

What works better is giving coordinates, like "goto H9" on Alpine although my preference to motivate people to get there is "H9 or die (alone)" (alone is implied). People usually respond better.

It's impossible to lead me to the mountain.

Considering that as soon as the squirrel shows up, I tend to have some component half destroyed BY the team. I prefer not to go near the mountain. I am not particularly fond of static position fights in a mobile weapon platforms either.

I'll go find myself a fight somewhere other than the mountain 99 out of 100 times. When I get swarmed and killed, while the other 11 on the mountain are getting ***** by 6 or 7 mechs, because they are too cowardly to push or are too busy shooting each other trying to get the squirrel, I LOL after I'm dead, sometimes ROFLMAO watching someone try to run from the enemy until killed, without ever firing shot back.

Even if it's just a game, better to have balls and go out fighting a horde, than play like you want to be Bubba's fluffer in a prison love nest.

[CaptainDeez]

Samual Kalkin, on 14 March 2014 - 08:41 PM, said:

It's impossible to lead me to the mountain.

Considering that as soon as the squirrel shows up, I tend to have some component half destroyed BY the team. I prefer not to go near the mountain. I am not particularly fond of static position fights in a mobile weapon platforms either.

I'll go find myself a fight somewhere other than the mountain 99 out of 100 times. When I get swarmed and killed, while the other 11 on the mountain are getting ***** by 6 or 7 mechs, because they are too cowardly to push or are too busy shooting each other trying to get the squirrel, I LOL after I'm dead, sometimes ROFLMAO watching someone try to run from the enemy until killed, without ever firing shot back.

Unless you mean you're scouting, is dying alone in that manner preferable to the mountain? If thats where the team has decided to make it's stand, that's what they've decided. Running off to become easy lunch won't look much better. And who knows? Maybe you were that guy that was supposed to make that shot over the ridge that disabled an atlas and saved a teammate and turned the tide and that's why 6-7 mechs are now rolling on them backed by 5-6 on the opposing side of the mountain.

Edited by CaptainDeez, 14 March 2014 - 11:16 PM.

[Samual Kalkin]

CaptainDeez, on 14 March 2014 - 11:15 PM, said:

Unless you mean you're scouting, is dying alone in that manner preferable to the mountain? If thats where the team has decided to make it's stand, that's what they've decided. Running off to become easy lunch won't look much better. And who knows? Maybe you were that guy that was supposed to make that shot over the ridge that disabled an atlas and saved a teammate and turned the tide and that's why 6-7 mechs are now rolling on them backed by 5-6 on the opposing side of the mountain.

Sorry I'm not the guy who saves the day, I'm just a scrub who is bad at MWO. That's a good player like you, who will fight in a bad location, without looking for flanking attacks, because the team wants to die on THE MOUNTAIN. Not having friends as a kid, I never played nor developed the fascination with "King of the Mountain", that almost everyone else seems to have.

Edited by Samual Kalkin, 15 March 2014 - 07:59 PM.

[Fyrwulf]

So, I just played a game of Assault on Alpine Peaks. More than half of my team were mediums and lights, while myself and one other guy were the only assaults. Now, I have a really slow Highlander build that's optimized for long range duels, but I can and have taken it into knife fighting range and murdered en mass. The opposing team completely conceded the initiative and let us come right to the doorstep of their base, largely assuming that because their team was loaded with assaults they would be able to dictate the engagement (i.e. our entire team were a bunch of cowards).

I, on the other hand, knew that's what they were thinking and decided I'd rather live as a lion for a minute than five as a lamb. So, I called the charge and the heavy hitters followed me in. And the crazy thing was for a minute we were winning because the point of contact was just a Victor and a Hunchy and they were folding like busted straight. In the back of my head I'm thinking that if the lights and mediums would just follow us in, the shock of the assault would carry us through to victory. Unfortunately the other team had a decent read on my team and most of the fast movers didn't follow us in, with predictable results.

Now, credit where it's due. I had a single light in my lance who screened the flank the whole way in and largely covered my slow ass. In other words, he was doing his job, which brought a huge smile to my face. And so far as I know he followed us in and took his beating like a champ. If orion0177 sees this, you're in my MWO good book forever.

What's the moral of this story? Well, unless you're a really dedicated scout and skirmisher with a big enough pair to conduct a frontal assault with the big boys, if you aren't bringing at least a Yen Lo Wang or Hunchy into the Assault gametype you aren't pulling your weight.

[oldradagast]

Usually in PUGS I just provide situational awareness: "2 near C5," "They have an AC40 Jager" "Watch the tunnel" and so on.

I find that helps without having to play with the map icons or give orders that may or may not work out.

[Fut]

Void Angel, on 14 March 2014 - 10:10 AM, said:

Actually, the quote you're objecting to is quite correct. Cooperation is always preferable to no cooperation, and it really does help to pick one of the options available and go with it. Similarly, a mediocre plan, executed now and with violence of action, is always preferable to the perfect plan executed too late. Even if it turns out wrong in a given instance, cooperation is key - because that practice of cooperation will win you more games than it loses. If you see a better solution, use your words! But if the team doesn't listen, or there simply is no time, support your teammates' plan of action.

Even if it's wrong

Exactly this.
Thanks for helping to explain.