Jump to content

Guide: A Balance Concept To Mech Building

Guide

96 replies to this topic

#1 Tesunie

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Seeker
  • The Seeker
  • 8,392 posts
  • LocationSeraphim HQ: Asuncion

Posted 16 March 2014 - 06:08 PM

To start, I know most people are under the concept that "more is better", and there are concepts and ideas behind this theology. I do grasp the concept that having more like weapons (called boating) can make things easier and increase your effectiveness within that role/weapon specification. AKA: More LRMs = better.

However, I would like to present a counter argument in this thread of this "boating" concept, with the idea of adding complementary weapons together can help one form a stronger, more balanced build. These concepts will be more important and relevant for PUG (Pick Up Groups, or can also be referred to as Solo playing) games than competitive (preconstructed 12 mans teams) games.


Focused Builds:
Now, I'll just mention that there is a strength with adding in a lot of the same weapons, but with a focused strength, there is a larger weakness. To name a few for you:
- With a heavy SRM payload, you end up with a great strength at close range, causing a lot of damage for very little weight and marginal heat. However, anything outside of 100m is going to really spread the damage, and outside 270m is completely immune to you. You are also heavily ammo dependent. Counters: Long range and pin point damage. (Also a known problem with SRM hit registration as of the time of posting.)
- Dual AC20 builds have a great pin point, high damage loadout. Up close and personal, they are going to do a lot of damage to a single location. However, the weapons are heavy, hot and require ammo. They also don't have a lot of range as well. Counters: Long Range, Ammo reserves, fast targets (for most people).
- An LRM boat will have great support, able to fire indirectly with a lot of damage. However, most times that damage is going to be spread out. With direct fire, the damage is less spread out. Lots of damage at mid to longer ranges. However, anything that gets close to you, within 180m, you just aren't going to hurt. Counters: Close combat, fast mechs, ECM, AMS (will hinder you), Terrain, Pin point sniper builds, etc.
I could go on, but I think you get the point.


Balanced Builds:
With this pointed out, sometimes it really pays to have a more balanced build. This way, you can avoid some of these large weaknesses of a fully focus build. However, with a more balanced build, you will also weaken your performance in any one field. Basically, the more balanced you become, the weaker your focused performance in the other roles will be, but the stronger your overall performance should be. Balance too far, and you might make yourself too weak in any one engagement type. Focus too far, and you gain strength in one type of engagement at the cost of weaknesses in other types.



With this information, I want to now present the case I have. A balanced build, with some weapons for up close damage and ranged damage, will preform overall better. However, by balanced, I don't mean splitting your mech roles into all categories. Select two roles. AKA: Something range and something for close up. Focus a little more on one over the other, but retain something for the range or close combat. This becomes more easier and more key the heavier your mech is. (Lights can basically throw this out the window and focus on one role most times.)

An example I shall present forth:
Stalker 3F: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1b0fed418ebb28e (Armor placement not exact.)
With this Stalker build, I created what I consider to be a nice blend for close combat and long range. I have a total of 30 LRMs for ranged combat, which is good for the build as it is a slow moving build. When I am out of line of sight and working to get into the fight, I can support my team with my LRMs. Then, for close ranges where my LRMs are completely useless, I cover myself with 4 Med lasers, and 2 SSRM2s, as well as a BAP to help counter ECM for the SSRMs.
So far, I have had great success with this particular loadout. It's a great mech in my opinion for newer players. Shoot your weapons in their proper range bands, and you should be fine. Lasers and SSRMs within 270m, and LRMs outside 180m. When the fight isn't good for my LRMs, I close in. If I am best off standing out back with my LRMs, then I can do that as well. A weapon for either situation, though a lot of it's punch is in the closer ranges. (This build works best on targets within the tight band of 270m to 180m. If you can, you try to keep targets in this zone. However, if you can't, you still have enough punch to at least go down fighting.)
The main concept behind this build is to be a guard for the team. If there are other LRM mechs, stick with them. Your more balanced build can help protect the LRM members of your team, while you can still use your LRMs with theirs.


With the example build, I'd like to point out how I didn't focus just on my LRMs. Actually, if anything, the mech was almost made for closer fights instead, with LRMs to help the build as it moves into position. This mech can work great in a solo PUG match, as it can handle most anything that comes it's way.

From the success I've had with this mech, I have made a lot of other mechs based on this design, and many of them have also been fairly successful. To present the idea of how this works, I shall post these other builds here as well.
Battlemaster 1S: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d83edc6e97ad3eb
Thunderbolt 5S: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1e01d025e505557
Hunchback 4SP: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...bb0bc827b009caf (No SSRMs, Artemis, or BAP, but similar concept.)
EDIT:
Griffin 3M: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9d177f0f72dfaac (Untested as of posting. I hope to purchase this mech soon for testing this loadout.) (Tested. Was too hot in close combat.)
Revised build Griffin 3M: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c4acc2e2546a287 (Test platform has stock XL 275 engine, and an extra heat sink, for the moment.)


Complimentary Weapons:
For the next part of this, I want to discuss complementary weapon systems. These are weapons that seem to work well together. The weapons I found to work well together so far:
- AC5/UAC5 with a TAG laser: They share similar ranges to each other, and each require direct line of sight. Aim for the AC, and let the TAG hit as well. Great for anyone who wants to be a spotter, or for mixing ACs and LRMs together. The cooler run of the AC helps keep the TAG shooting inside that weapongroup.
- Med/Sm lasers and SSRMs: They share similar weapon ranges (or effective ranges for the Med Lasers). Combine them with BAP and you can do well with those pesky lights. Best part is, if you don't want the SSRMs to fire, don't lock on. (AKA: Target is outside 270m range, but you want to shoot those med lasers. I do not actually recommend one fight without locking on. Always, whenever possible, lock onto your target. It helps you out. It helps your team out.)
- Med/SM lasers and MGs: Works great, especially with Sm Lasers. Share similar ranges to each other as well as aiming mechanics (ignore the MG bullets. They hit like a laser.) Also, Lasers help punch through armor, MGs help with Internals.
- SSRMs and LRMs: Buy the Artemis for the LRMs, and the faster lock on speed also effects your SSRMs as well. Actually, I always suggest Artemis for SSRMs (but not all LRMs need to be Artemis, but this is for a different discussion). Combine with BAP, and it helps your SSRMs for the most part, but your LRMs benefit from the extended sensor ranges, and the cutting of ECM that gets too close.
- Large Laser and TAG: Share similar ranges, and have the same exact aiming style. Only problem is keeping those large lasers cool so you can keep the TAG on target near indefinitely.

For this, you will have to grasp the concept that you don't have to "fill all hard points with the same weapon". My example above (Stalker and Stalker based builds) don't used all the Missile Hard Points for LRMs, but also spend a few on SSRMs as well.

Other examples of using weapons that blend together well to make a good, balanced, mech:
Raven 4x: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...98482fb6aa1c943
This Raven has been deemed as one of the worst Raven variants in the game for a long time by a lot of people here on the Forums. However, I find that it's got just the perfect blend of hard points to make it a real carrion bird. The LRMs are for the long range punch and team support. After armor has been breached, use the speed of the Raven to close in for the Med Lasers supported by the MGs. Take a section from them, then withdraw into your team again. Use your LRMs as much as you can to peel armor with your team. Try to save yourself for the end game, with your MGs and Lasers could be the tide turner. Work within the team.
I will warn, it will not play like a typical light mech. Everything you learned about being a light pilot will not work here. You want to stay with the team. If you go off on your own, you will most likely die. Fair warning.
Shadowhawk 2H: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f9634c0c93c9903
This is the build where I found the nice blend of the AC5 and TAG. This mech might not look like much on paper, but the fact that it's guns are never silent makes it a real killer. Use range to your advantage, and try to get line of sight. When you start to hit with your AC5, shoot the LRMs as well. In theory, your LRMs and AC should never be silent. Against slower targets, you should be able to keep your AC on target, with the TAG, and be shooting your LRMs constantly. (I have often died with no ammo left and 600+ damage to my credit.)

These mechs I find effective for how the weapons on them blend together. With the Raven, it's the LRMs (range) and med lasers (close) making openings for the MGs to do what they do best, taking out structure. The Shadowhawk is a beast on even the hottest maps, as it just keeps shooting everything it's got and cutting through ECM with TAG, even when other mechs are shut down from overheating.


Range Balance:
The last part of this guide, I'd like to look at builds that might not use LRMs, but balance themselves between range and close combat weapons. If you haven't already noticed, all my other mechs here have weapons designated for each range type, especially if the ranged weapon will not work in close range. This means that, at range or up close, none of these builds will ever be completely useless. This is not to say that one can not play with a more focused build, but just be ready to meat your counter on the field and take your lumps. However, same goes for the more balanced build, coming across a more focused build in their element. With a balanced build, you give up some strength in one role, for the ability to still deal damage in other roles. (Example Stalker can deal damage with LRMs (Range) or lasers/SSRMs (Close). If in an LRM dual, I will probably lose. If in a Brawl, I will probably lose. But, I am never helpless in either situation at the same time. And don't forget, you do have a team who can help you.)

I'll keep this short, and jump to some more examples of a balance between close range and far range:
Shadowhawk 2D2: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0ef2b36422b21b2
I have ERPPCs (you can use ERLLs if you desire) for long range, and can snipe if I need to. However, this mech's best in a brawl (surprisingly enough). Place the SSRM2s on chain fire, and use the ERPPCs sparingly. Also, chain fire the ERPPCs to help you manage your heat as well. The advantage is that, at range I'm still a threat, and up close I increase in threat. So, say, you get stuck on Alpines with this mech, you wont be hopeless till someone (or you) charges. At the same time, if a light mech tries to take an ally, you are there to make their day not such a nice one.. (Also seems to be good at preforming daring charges for some reason. Just, don't go charging in alone...)
Dragon 1N: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d9e193fedc40eaf
I know a lot of people's opinions of Dragons, but I've had a lot of fun and good luck with this one. It's designed to "play with the lights" with enough armor to take in damage. Either go with the lights to help them, or stick with your team and hunt lights that get close. Either way, you have an UAC5 for range, as well as a Large Laser. Each are good against lights, UAC5 for it's rapid fire, and Laser for it's duration. Then, add in the SSRMs, and it's not going to be nice for the light mech... (And you are fast enough to give them a good chase.) Scout, flank, etc with this mech. (I also suggest, with larger threats/targets, circle them and try to keep them just in the corner of your screen.)
Battlemaster 1G: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a354333be74bbac
This Battlemaster has 2 ERLLs for long range, placed on the highest points possible. From there, anything that it can get close to (or gets close to it) will find itself in a tough spot. If you don't shoot the ERLLs, it's not too bad on heat. Use the ERLLs sparingly up close, as they will spike your heat. Then, learning from the Raven 4X, use the Med Lasers to open up holes, and let the MGs finish the job. You should be able to keep all med lasers and MGs shooting for a while, enough to do some serious damage. (Also, I never stop moving with this mech, unless it's being a long range war, and even then. An assault moving at 80 KPH can be very disconcerting. However, be careful as it can have the same problem as a Dragon. "Fast enough to get into trouble, too slow to get out of trouble.")





Overview:
- Have a weapon for long and short range. It's okay to focus a little on one or the other, but don't forget either one entirely.
- LRMs don't need to be boated to be effective. But too few is also a problem. This is a personal taste situation. I'd suggest no fewer than 15 tubes total. (Watch out for ghost heat.)
- Different weapons can work well together. Avoid the boating problem by finding weapons that can work side by side well.
- You don't have to fill all of the same hard point type with the same weapon. (Example: 2 large lasers instead of 4, replace the other ones with med pulse. Don't need to fill 4 missile slots with LRMs, but can take some SRMs or SSRMs instead. (Stalker/Catapult.)
- Find what works for you. These are suggestions, and they have served me well, but each person/pilot is different. What works for me, might not work for you.

#2 Tesunie

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Seeker
  • The Seeker
  • 8,392 posts
  • LocationSeraphim HQ: Asuncion

Posted 16 March 2014 - 07:18 PM

Note: If anyone has any opinions, suggestions of the like of any builds, by all means. I'd even welcome some arguments for or against this concept.

Also, if anyone wants to use said posted builds, by all means use them. (I'd love to hear if you used them, and how well they worked for you though, but use them if you like them.)

#3 Dracol

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Steadfast
  • The Steadfast
  • 2,539 posts
  • LocationSW Florida

Posted 16 March 2014 - 07:36 PM

Solid foundation to work with if one wants to expand beyond single weapon mechs.

Great write up Tesunie. Just to give myself something to do, I'll equip a LRM 10 to contribute to the main battle while I'm watching a flank or guarding the lrm boats. At the very least it will eat up AMS as well as give away enemy positions.

One thing I would add is a note about the value of Tag.
Nearly any mech can benefit from a tag.

-Front line mechs will highlight their target helping focus fire the team... also, XP bonus
-Any time you spot a DDC or Raven, you can tag it up to alert the rest of the team
-BAP helps cancel close ecm, but tag is needed to target those outside 180m
-In the case of the first stalker build, between the ranges of 270m and 180m, it becomes a monster
......tag helps all missles lock on faster, and when in LOS helps center LRM damage.
......add the Stalkers ssrms and med lasers, and lay out the hefty damage

Edited by Dracol, 16 March 2014 - 07:39 PM.


#4 Tesunie

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Seeker
  • The Seeker
  • 8,392 posts
  • LocationSeraphim HQ: Asuncion

Posted 16 March 2014 - 07:48 PM

View PostDracol, on 16 March 2014 - 07:36 PM, said:

Solid foundation to work with if one wants to expand beyond single weapon mechs.

Great write up Tesunie. Just to give myself something to do, I'll equip a LRM 10 to contribute to the main battle while I'm watching a flank or guarding the lrm boats. At the very least it will eat up AMS as well as give away enemy positions.

One thing I would add is a note about the value of Tag.
Nearly any mech can benefit from a tag.

-Front line mechs will highlight their target helping focus fire the team... also, XP bonus
-Any time you spot a DDC or Raven, you can tag it up to alert the rest of the team
-BAP helps cancel close ecm, but tag is needed to target those outside 180m
-In the case of the first stalker build, between the ranges of 270m and 180m, it becomes a monster
......tag helps all missles lock on faster, and when in LOS helps center LRM damage.
......add the Stalkers ssrms and med lasers, and lay out the hefty damage


Good points.

I figured this guide was going to be long enough as it was, so I didn't want to delve too deep into LRMs, TAG, Artemis, etc.

If my mouse had more buttons on it, it'd be tempting to place a TAG on it and remove a ton of LRM ammo. However, I use a two button mouse, which is why I have that Stalker set up as it is. However, it's really good at close combat too... :D (I also tend to use my Stalker for indirect LRM fire a lot. TAG wouldn't help with indirect, but can be helpful so don't get me wrong.

With the Stalker build, I'd tell people TAG is a preference thing, and can easily be added in for anyone interested in it. It can be worth it.



Personally, I'm really wanting to try out the Griffin custom. Just deciding if I want to give it a try or not. I have 3 mech bays open (saved for King Crab when it comes out, or the Crab) and a Shadowhawk 5M that I'm willing to sell. Thing is, I can also do that set up, not as effectively, on the Shadowhawk 5M... (but I already own two other Shadowhawks, and I could always rebuy it if I wished...)

#5 Shar Wolf

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Determined
  • The Determined
  • 10,358 posts
  • LocationAlaska!

Posted 16 March 2014 - 08:03 PM

View PostDracol, on 16 March 2014 - 07:36 PM, said:

I'll equip a LRM 10

If you can swing it (hardpoint limits being the only reason you "should"n't be able to.....either because you only have 1M or because the other are already used up...)
2 LRM5 weight 1 ton less than an LRM10, and fire faster
2 ALRM5 weight the same as 1 ALRM10.... but still fire faster. :D

I can contribute some of my own builds if you want Tesunie, but most of them are built around my 4-button mouse anymore.
(IE, having said LRM5 on both group and chain fire, if groupings allow, or left/right arm lasers, B-slot, Mslot on my BH)

#6 Tesunie

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Seeker
  • The Seeker
  • 8,392 posts
  • LocationSeraphim HQ: Asuncion

Posted 16 March 2014 - 08:16 PM

View PostShar Wolf, on 16 March 2014 - 08:03 PM, said:

If you can swing it (hardpoint limits being the only reason you "should"n't be able to.....either because you only have 1M or because the other are already used up...)
2 LRM5 weight 1 ton less than an LRM10, and fire faster
2 ALRM5 weight the same as 1 ALRM10.... but still fire faster. :D

I can contribute some of my own builds if you want Tesunie, but most of them are built around my 4-button mouse anymore.
(IE, having said LRM5 on both group and chain fire, if groupings allow, or left/right arm lasers, B-slot, Mslot on my BH)


True. LRM5s are more efficient if you have the extra hard points, or depending upon the design (especially with Artemis, considering it becomes the same tonnage), you could go with the larger launcher and have some SRM/SSRMs. Either path could be good, considering what you are expecting from your mech design.

And by all means, post a couple builds if you want. The discussion is balanced designs (or any good counter arguments). I do expect builds to be posted. I do ask that you explain your builds a bit, like what you expect from them when you play them, and maybe even why you chose the weapons you did? Just so people can understand how and why your build came into meaning. Just like I expect, at some point, someone comment on my builds with what they would change, why they would change it, and post their changed version of the build, explaining their own choices.

(And you know I don't mind someone posting a counter argument. I actually expect it!)

#7 Shar Wolf

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Determined
  • The Determined
  • 10,358 posts
  • LocationAlaska!

Posted 16 March 2014 - 08:27 PM

A lot of my builds are built around optimizing the stock loadout (similar to your Stalker there)

IE, I really really liked the stock CN9-A, so I created two builds based around what it did:
Optimized Stock Loadout and a Fire Support build.

The Fire support build I get a lot of flack for, but I score very well with it - it was built mostly to counter the (at the time) dominance of the Stalker, which is very vulnerable to LRM fire (due to a wide CT...from above)
The 3LRM can be swapped for 2 if you want Artemis on it.

Edit: armor value/placement and ammo locations are wrong in both links - naturally.

Edited by Shar Wolf, 16 March 2014 - 08:29 PM.


#8 Tesunie

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Seeker
  • The Seeker
  • 8,392 posts
  • LocationSeraphim HQ: Asuncion

Posted 16 March 2014 - 08:44 PM

My Centurion (C) (freebie) has an AC5, 2 Med lasers, and 3 SSRMs (maybe 2... don't have the game running to check). I got tired of not being able to defend myself with LRMs up close. So I use my AC for long range, and everything else for close range.

My brother does a very nice LRM Centurion though...

I have a Centurion AL with an ERPPC for range, 2 med lasers, and 2/3 SSRMs as well... :D

#9 Spheroid

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Veteran Founder
  • Veteran Founder
  • 4,907 posts
  • LocationSouthern Wisconsin

Posted 16 March 2014 - 10:04 PM

I don't feel those streaks help your Stalker build at all. I would add more missiles or lasers because 16 DHS is more than enough for LRM30. I would favor 4x ALRM5 + 2x LLAS or 2x ALRM10 + 2x ARLM5.

The Stalker is the perfect mech for bracket fire, you should balance the long and short range heat loads.

#10 Tesunie

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Seeker
  • The Seeker
  • 8,392 posts
  • LocationSeraphim HQ: Asuncion

Posted 17 March 2014 - 08:49 AM

View PostSpheroid, on 16 March 2014 - 10:04 PM, said:

I don't feel those streaks help your Stalker build at all. I would add more missiles or lasers because 16 DHS is more than enough for LRM30. I would favor 4x ALRM5 + 2x LLAS or 2x ALRM10 + 2x ARLM5.

The Stalker is the perfect mech for bracket fire, you should balance the long and short range heat loads.


I have found the SSRMs to be helpful when facing lights. If nothing else, it's a very good scare tactic. The SSRMs also benefit from the Artemis with no additional weight. Add in what many people have called "a very slow twist rotation and twist speed" (I find the 3F does not have this, but I'm going by popular opinion), and the SSRMs help you deal damage when your "med lasers can't get onto target" (something I don't have many problems with on the 3F, but I can see the issue with the other Stalkers). It's there to help add that little extra punch, and it can handle the heat for the most part.

As far as replacing them for LRM5s (essentially), I had a build like that before. 4 LRM5s and 6 med lasers. It was effective, but didn't run nearly as smoothly as my new concept. However, even though I have an idea on what you are theorizing here, mind posting a build up from Smurfies? Just something for a quick overview. To help me better grasp your concept.

Overall, if I understand your design idea, I'd say it's still balanced for the most part. You aren't doing LRM70 (total) with TAG and jumping in (which I do know in the right situation can be deadly). You've just sought to seek balance in range bands and heat within those range bands. I wouldn't mind investigating this concept farther. I'd just be worried about possibly being "too" balanced. I find/feel that one wants to have balance on a grander scale, but still have a little bit of focus to their mechs. Like, having a large number of LRMs, but not going completely LRMs. Having a large number of SRM/SSRMs, but not to the exclusion of any other weapon.

Basically, too perfect of balance can be as much a weakness as being too focused on a single aspect. (Example of being too focused: Splatcat. Catch it at range, and it's useless in it's weakness.) It's a hard balance to find, as you don't want to be too weak in your off focus, but you don't want to weaken your main focus too much either. (AKA: You want to be able to hold your own at either range, but be better at one over the other. Just never useless.)

My Alternative to the Splatcat would be something along this lines: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...445ae491b5bf9cf
Or for SRMs instead of SSRMs: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6b858948e8581d2
A more balanced version of range and close up.
(And there are several other build types I'd be willing to try as well, such as 4 SRM6, 2 LRM10s or something: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...29352fb4c5591df )

#11 Arctourus

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Overlord
  • Overlord
  • 482 posts

Posted 17 March 2014 - 09:11 AM

Nice guide for the new player, might be better in the new player help forum. Otherwise nothing all that new here. I've always found builds with some sort of multi-role capability to be more fun to play anyway. Using the stalker as an example, creating a close range brawler with no ranged weaponry just means you have to wait forever to get to the fight and cause damage. The lrms let you contribute from a distance. A lot of my builds use an lrm 5 or 10 to give me that ability to harass/soften up enemy mechs before I get close enough to cause more consistent damage.

#12 Tesunie

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Seeker
  • The Seeker
  • 8,392 posts
  • LocationSeraphim HQ: Asuncion

Posted 17 March 2014 - 09:21 AM

View PostArctourus, on 17 March 2014 - 09:11 AM, said:

Nice guide for the new player, might be better in the new player help forum.


From my understanding, Guides belong here, and New Player questions belong in the New Player Help forum... So that is why I placed it here. I could be mistaken, as I've seen many guides in the New Player Help forum. Then again, I've also reported some of those guides and seen them get moved over here... So... I don't know?


A few LRMs can be very helpful. I use to use LRMs on my Dragon for a while, when it was still running a Std engine. However, once I got better at the game (I shall admit), I started to find that the few LRMs on the Dragon weren't as effective anymore. (ECM also got introduced as well around that time...) So, over time, I changed it to run SSRMs and increased it's engine size with an XL version (once I got the C-bills). I still maintain range combat, and I'm not fast enough to get in close easier when I need/have to.

A lot of mech design, even when considering balance, is going to depend upon what you want it to do. I feel, counter to a lot of other people I've talked to on the forums, that slower mechs benefit more from LRMs, even just a few LRMs. An LRM5-10 lets a slow mech contribute damage while still moving into range or line of sight. They also normally have the tonnage to fit an LRM system and a ton or two of ammo, in most cases. On the other hand, I've seen LRMs work well on a Commando, and I've run a Jenner with lrms on it before as well with moderate success. All depends upon the mech, how you are designing it, and how you play it.

#13 Charons Little Helper

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 824 posts
  • LocationRight behind you!

Posted 17 March 2014 - 09:44 AM

2 things -

With assaults - and heavies to a lesser degree - I agree with you.

However - mediums / lights often do better focused on brawling or long range. They have the speed to close - and they're better off sticking behind cover until they can get close if they're brawlers, or running away at high speed if they're long-range.

2nd - LRMs aren't worth taking until you are shooting at least 20. Otherwise AMS chews up too much - and it's not worth the weight/slots.

Edited by Charons Little Helper, 17 March 2014 - 09:44 AM.


#14 Tesunie

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Seeker
  • The Seeker
  • 8,392 posts
  • LocationSeraphim HQ: Asuncion

Posted 17 March 2014 - 10:09 AM

View PostCharons Little Helper, on 17 March 2014 - 09:44 AM, said:

2 things -

With assaults - and heavies to a lesser degree - I agree with you.

However - mediums / lights often do better focused on brawling or long range. They have the speed to close - and they're better off sticking behind cover until they can get close if they're brawlers, or running away at high speed if they're long-range.


Basically, agreed for the most part. Lights really should probably focus on one aspect or another. Mediums start to be able to diversify a little, but still have to have a greater focus. Heavies and Assaults probably should start to diversify into having dedicated weapons for each range (close/far). Of course, pilot skills depending, teamwork, group loadouts, etc. (There is an exception to every and any rule.)

View PostCharons Little Helper, on 17 March 2014 - 09:44 AM, said:

2nd - LRMs aren't worth taking until you are shooting at least 20. Otherwise AMS chews up too much - and it's not worth the weight/slots.


Here, I can agree to disagree on. Yes, that's a good point and a concern. However, sometimes trying to do something over being able to do nothing is better. Like, a surgery. You can either take a 0% chance of survival, or you can take a surgery with a 1-5% chance of success/survival. Don't know about you, but I'd take the 1-5% chance over no chance. Same goes for the LRMs. If AMS is there, your missiles probably wont connect. If they don't, then you will cause some damage. Even with AMS though, you still might get something through... Determining if it's worth the weight and risk is up to the personal choice of the pilot. Heavier mechs can get away with it more than lighter mechs.

Also, as a counter concept, if more/everyone had a small cluster of LRMs on their mechs, then combined it could be very devastating, and could overwhelm AMS. A lone LRM5 system wont do much. For the most part, I suggest at least 10, probably 15 for a better minimum total tube count per mech. I have been taking only a single large launcher as of late (ALRM20) and using the couple of extra missile slots for SSRMs, as LRMs and SSRMs benefit from each other a lot. Each benefit from BAP. Each benefit from Artemis. Why not? (Of course, this is for me.)


A lot of any mech build will be determined by what you want it to do. Do you want to protect your teammates more? AMS, BAP, SSRMs can help with that, as well as LRMs to help support while you guard as another option. Want to support your "support"? TAG, NARC, just learning to spot, ECM even. I had a Spider that had ECM, an ERPPC, and TAG. Often times, I would just jump up behind the enemy, and just set TAG on the farthest one back. Watch the missiles come in and the enemy had no idea where I was (because I wasn't doing damage). Low match score, but I was a huge help for the LRMs. (The Unsung spotter.)

There are many ways to play. No one way will I say is really wrong. Same goes for mech builds.

#15 Arctourus

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Overlord
  • Overlord
  • 482 posts

Posted 17 March 2014 - 10:33 AM

Here's an exercise for you: go to the testing grounds, pick a nice stationary mech and fire off a larger lrm launcher....a 15 or 20 and watch it in zoomed mode. You'll notice that a handful of missiles from each side hit the ground around it. This is a motionless unpiloted mech. The larger the launcher, the wider the blob of missiles, the more missiles doomed to miss by design. And yes, this means that you're punching it all over instead of in a centered location.

Now fire an lrm 5 or 10. These launchers give you much tighter groups of missiles. The drawback...AMS if they carry it. Many players don't anymore though. The effect of this is a much tighter damage zone when the missiles land. I've had so much luck running a jenner with a pair of lrm 5s, it's unreal what they can do when you use them wisely.


My first dedicated missile boat runs four ALRM10s, all set to chain fire. My griffin three lrm5s set to chain. Always had good luck with these.

One of my wolverines uses an LRM5 quite nicely...an lbx10, mlas, two srm6 and the lrm5 (artemis). Doesn't seem great on paper but works wonders from midgame on. My Atlas RS traded out the srms for an LRM 5 and 10...group firing so that all 15 missiles fire at once. Works great for hitting an enemy from a distance until the four mlas and AC20 can get close enough to do their thing.

It really depends on how you play and the way you use them.

Edited by Arctourus, 17 March 2014 - 10:34 AM.


#16 Shar Wolf

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Determined
  • The Determined
  • 10,358 posts
  • LocationAlaska!

Posted 17 March 2014 - 10:39 AM

View PostArctourus, on 17 March 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

My first dedicated missile boat runs four ALRM10s, all set to chain fire. My griffin three lrm5s set to chain. Always had good luck with these.

That is why the CN9 I linked had 3 LRM5 as well (spent to much time sitting on cap-points just out of the fight for streaks to have been worth it - even the light mechs stayed away from the cap points.....)

At the same time - you can make tube-limits work for you that way (or work against you if there is AMS) - an LRM20 being fired out of an Atlas or most (all? not that familiar with the chassis details) Stalkers is functionally 2LRM10 chainfired.

#17 Dracol

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Steadfast
  • The Steadfast
  • 2,539 posts
  • LocationSW Florida

Posted 17 March 2014 - 05:53 PM

Good points about the LRM 5 vrs the LRM10

A lot of the time it comes down to hard points available.

#18 Sparks Murphey

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bridesmaid
  • Bridesmaid
  • 2,953 posts
  • LocationAdelaide, Australia

Posted 17 March 2014 - 08:11 PM

View PostCharons Little Helper, on 17 March 2014 - 09:44 AM, said:

2nd - LRMs aren't worth taking until you are shooting at least 20. Otherwise AMS chews up too much - and it's not worth the weight/slots.

Assuming every target your shooting has AMS, or assuming you're all on your own. Here's the thing though: you shouldn't be doing the second, and a balanced loadout allows you to avoid the first.

If your target has AMS, don't shoot missiles at it unless there are at least 20 missiles in a salvo heading at it. If you are standing along with three other teammates each firing an LRM 5, that's 20 missiles, you're all good. If your team has a dedicated missile boat with 60 LRMs, and the rest of your team each has an LRM 5, you've almost doubled the output of missiles to 115 LRMs. If you all focus fire, that's going to hurt. Lots. Even if there's just you adding your single LRM 5 to the missile boat's LRM 60, that's still five more missiles that the enemy AMS won't shoot down.

If you do find yourself in the situation where you have to be the only person firing at a target with AMS and all you've brought in terms of LRMs is a itsy bitsy LRM 5... well, unless you're in a Locust, use your other weapons. AMS won't shoot down a laser beam or an autocannon shell. Because you haven't focused on going all in with missile weapons, you have other options to kill them with.

My Oxide runs 3 SSRMs and an LRM 5, because unlike most lights, I find it works best as a anti-light screen for the core of my team, and that means stay close to home. I add the LRM 5 in to anything that our support is bombarding, gaining me kill assists, then unleash my SSRMs on any lights that come to attack them. Between 180m and 270m, all of my missile systems can hit a light, and even under 180m, the LRMs (5 hit points of missile per salvo) give an AMS system on a light something to shoot at other than my Streaks (4 points of missile per salvo)

#19 Tesunie

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Seeker
  • The Seeker
  • 8,392 posts
  • LocationSeraphim HQ: Asuncion

Posted 18 March 2014 - 09:52 AM

I thought this topic was more controversial than it currently is... Maybe Ghost Heat is doing it's job?


However, more on topic...
The advantages of a more diverse build is the ability to approach the same problem in several different ways. If one way wont work, you have the option of trying a different approach. If LRMs wont work, if you have other weapons, you can always try to use them instead. If a direct line engagement wouldn't work, then maybe LRMs will. If they move too fast for your ACs to reliably hit, then use your SSRMs to chase them away... (AKA: What other people are mentioning, and I'm just agreeing with you.)

#20 Dracol

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Steadfast
  • The Steadfast
  • 2,539 posts
  • LocationSW Florida

Posted 18 March 2014 - 09:54 AM

With today's patch, LRM's are going to be even more useful. The speed increase to 170/ms will help land missles, engage new targets faster, and cause enemies to dive for cover faster. The AMS range increase will call out enemy positions sooner but help counter the speed increase as well.

One minor draw back to the speed increase is the added difficulty to dual launching. A dedicated missile boat, firing from 750 or more meters, could fire LRMs at target 1, switch targets to fire a second salvo on target 2, reacquire target 1 to land the first salvo, then back to target 2 to land the second salvo. With mechs moving to cover, this allowed maximum damage without wasting missiles firing into buildings.





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users