89 replies to this topic

[Ngamok]

Cannot comment on the HGNs as I have not played them in maybe 2 months? Anyways, have been mastering my Victors, almost done with the last 2. I don't see the problem brawling with them that you people claim. Is it less than before? Sure, the patch notes tell me so. Am I tanking in them? Hell no. Just play better I guess.

They are not useless. They are only useless because you guys can't brawl.

[R A V 3 N]

Ngamok - you don't know sh*t about me. And this isn't about whether we can brawl in them or not... god get a clue...

[skorpionet]

I understood!!!! Russ, during a match, it was "paved" from a Victor!

[B0oN]

Hmmm, funny ...
My Victors and Highlanders still work ... what was your problems again ?

If you really feel your CQB-Assaults have been ran into the ground, maybe try joystick controlling the torso, as its a touch directer (yeah i know, it should be more direct, but i´m not really caring right now) when doing quick turns than swiping your mouse wildly over your mat .

Other than that, don´t overextend as I do so many times ^^

P.S: On PGIGP : These guys play way too few matches to be "in it" as far as we are, hence their reactions, plus I have the damnable suspicion PGIGP are testing everything in a LAN instead of properly testing with the normally occuring bandwidth of pings that are most of the time present in a round .

Commence

[skorpionet]

I have arm lock turned off and I can notice the now slow torso / arms movements.

Period.

[skorpionet]

from VLOG #3

Quote

One of the other mechs we're looking at is the Victor. We sat down and, actually we had a long hard look at the Victor and it is pretty surprising to see how agile that mech was. We're taking steps now to bring that mech more in-line with the feel of an assault. Now this touches on the whole thing about why are we looking ahead using assaults. Well right now we don't see the differentiations between mediums and lights and heavies and assaults to be quite wide enough. The heavies are moving around quite nimbly, almost to that of like a medium class mech. The assaults, they're supposed to be big and lumbering and they don't really feel that way yet, so we're addressing those as well. That's why the heavies and assaults are pretty much under the eye of scrutiny

Then as also I wrote here.... the class name is more important that the tons

[Gyrok]

Zuesacoatl, on 20 March 2014 - 01:57 AM, said:

You are right, but after running the victor post patch, I feel it is in line with the class it is in. It is more responsive than an atlas, but does not handle like a medium, but it is closer to that handling than the atlas is.

Let us clear something up, post nerf, of ALL the assault mechs, ONLY the BLR-1G is the worst turning and worst torso twisting variant of any assault mech. The next 4 above it are Victors, then the other heavier assault mechs...

Let us not confuse this for something it is not...

The turning radius nerf...hurt, but COULD be doable with JJs, oh, but they nerfed those too...well, at least you can still twist to hit the stuff that is chasing you in close...oh wait...the AS7 is better at that than the Victor now...

What irks me the MOST out of this whole thing is the torso twist nerf...honestly...they should leave JJs alone (post nerf) and lose the torso twist nerf, and arm movement nerf ENTIRELY, and cut the turning nerf in half. That is FAR more useful reduction and accomplishes it feeling more like an assault mech.

The problem here is, THESE CHANGES DO NOTHING TO PREVENT THE META THEY SEEK TO ELIMINATE, I hope you can understand the underlying fundamental issue.

They broke the part that people who were NOT jump sniping were using...

If they want to eliminate jump sniping, eliminate JJs entirely, from every variant that has them...that will be the only way they could see to do it that would make sense to them. Actually FIXING the underlying issue via suggestions does not seem to get through.

Edited by Gyrok, 24 March 2014 - 04:06 PM.

[Zeusacoatl]

Gyrok, on 24 March 2014 - 04:04 PM, said:

Let us clear something up, post nerf, of ALL the assault mechs, ONLY the BLR-1G is the worst turning and worst torso twisting variant of any assault mech. The next 4 above it are Victors, then the other heavier assault mechs...

Let us not confuse this for something it is not...

The turning radius nerf...hurt, but COULD be doable with JJs, oh, but they nerfed those too...well, at least you can still twist to hit the stuff that is chasing you in close...oh wait...the AS7 is better at that than the Victor now...

What irks me the MOST out of this whole thing is the torso twist nerf...honestly...they should leave JJs alone (post nerf) and lose the torso twist nerf, and arm movement nerf ENTIRELY, and cut the turning nerf in half. That is FAR more useful reduction and accomplishes it feeling more like an assault mech.

The problem here is, THESE CHANGES DO NOTHING TO PREVENT THE META THEY SEEK TO ELIMINATE, I hope you can understand the underlying fundamental issue.

They broke the part that people who were NOT jump sniping were using...

If they want to eliminate jump sniping, eliminate JJs entirely, from every variant that has them...that will be the only way they could see to do it that would make sense to them. Actually FIXING the underlying issue via suggestions does not seem to get through.

Lawl. I love you guys that say "everyone". I do not jump snipe, and yet. ...what for it.... I do not agree with you. Wow, what a twist. I still love my Victors and I am still very effective in them. YOU may not like the changes or can not adjust to them, there are are some that do, and can, and also understand the why. L2pb. Adapt or die, etc etc

Edited by Zuesacoatl, 24 March 2014 - 07:18 PM.

[Gyrok]

I can still play them...that is not the issue.

Yes, they still move and jump and fire weapons...only by a basic definition are they "playable".

When an Atlas can turn at the same rate you can, even with 20T more weight in weapons, armor, and engine...why play an 80T mech at all?

Hell...the meta haters "poptart" poster child, the highlander, is actually MORE mobile in a brawl now...

The mech is not broken in the sense that you can drop in it and play it...sure.

It is broken in the sense that EVERY OTHER ASSAULT BARRING 1 SPECIFIC VARIANT OF 1 SPECIFIC CHASSIS CAN OUT TURN, TWIST, AND TRACK IT WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY OUT WEIGHING IT BY SIGNIFICANT AMOUNTS.

Meanwhile it is supposed to be the "most mobile" assault mech, and clearly lacks the armor to go with that...

Of course, talking to people who do not have the capability to understand anything cognitive and respond with stupid cracks like l2pb will not get me anywhere...because you clearly know everything there is to know about this game...meanwhile, a lowly game designer who plays this game to unwind knows nothing...

Clearly you do not know your audience...so I would advise you to take your own advice, "l2pb".

Edited by Gyrok, 24 March 2014 - 08:20 PM.

[BoldricKent]

I just started grinding my Victors to elite, bought 2 just week before neft. While upgrading engine and getting 2x elite bonus helps, it doesnt feel that much more nimble as did prenerf stock version, as it should. I use them mostly as a brawlers or mid range fast assults, and its funny and sad, to see Awsome outturning me. Full JJ have no effect on air mobility or turnning, its
same if i field 1 or 4,there is a distance difference, but that its. And thats starting to rubb me in a wrong way.
I bought Victor more based on my Battletech experiance then MWO play, it was always light and nimble assult with JJ. A cavalry assult.
Its not a Victor problem, rather then min/max builds, with abusing JJ dynamic. Plus speed problems, which is generic to all
classes, speed being alfa and omega of gameplay.
When you take out JJ turn, and then drasticly reduce turn speed, what does that leave Victor compered to other assults,
Awasome or Battlemaster, undergunned, underprotected just a bit faster, and with very few torso hardpoints.
I guess i better jump into Firestarter, before his time is up..

[kelerian]

Well, its not enough to make the Victor useless. I'm still pretty effective. I think 10% would have been better though instead of 20%. Bad thing is it's pushed me more into a game style that they are trying to prevent. I've had to rely a bit more on poptarting instead of brawling, because I can't afford to maneuver myself into a bad position. I preferred to do more of a brawling style.

[skorpionet]

Yes also this is the problem. After the nerf I left in garage my 9k brawler build and changed my plan to get the 9s to build another brawler ( -300 mc for PGI ). I use the DS for jump sniper and 9b as long range support. Ah , no LRM for me.

Edited by skorpionet, 25 March 2014 - 11:52 AM.

[Haupt Thomas Schneider]

Judge Redeemer, on 18 March 2014 - 11:58 AM, said:

Deal with it, its not supposed to be medium on steroids its an assault class!

That is incorrect.
The Victor is the _largest_ mech that _CAN_ move as fast as a medium mech. That is what makes it one of the most awesome [pardon the pun there] assault mechs out there, even though it is among the lightest in the class. It is a fact of the franchise that they are molesting and beating to death here. It's a simple power to weight thing based on the dynamic of the game they based off of.
The clans have two, _2_ 80 tonners that mount the 400XL stock, and one of them has all five jump jets. It is an aweful and devistating thing to try to overcome, and that's with the benifit of random hit location on your side [old table top].
Your statement supports the idea that a Heavy shouldn't be able to move as fast as a light, but they can. IF you allow the engine size to be that high. [Which, they did not with the Dragon, or Quickdraw] They should have [or should] limited the the max engine size, not screwd me/us out of one of the prime values that parted us with our cash in the first place.
And it doesn't even address the problem that motivated the move in the first place.

[Haupt Thomas Schneider]

Gyrok, on 24 March 2014 - 04:04 PM, said:

Let us clear something up, post nerf, of ALL the assault mechs, ONLY the BLR-1G is the worst turning and worst torso twisting variant of any assault mech. The next 4 above it are Victors, then the other heavier assault mechs...

Let us not confuse this for something it is not...

The turning radius nerf...hurt, but COULD be doable with JJs, oh, but they nerfed those too...well, at least you can still twist to hit the stuff that is chasing you in close...oh wait...the AS7 is better at that than the Victor now...

What irks me the MOST out of this whole thing is the torso twist nerf...honestly...they should leave JJs alone (post nerf) and lose the torso twist nerf, and arm movement nerf ENTIRELY, and cut the turning nerf in half. That is FAR more useful reduction and accomplishes it feeling more like an assault mech.

The problem here is, THESE CHANGES DO NOTHING TO PREVENT THE META THEY SEEK TO ELIMINATE, I hope you can understand the underlying fundamental issue.

They broke the part that people who were NOT jump sniping were using...

If they want to eliminate jump sniping, eliminate JJs entirely, from every variant that has them...that will be the only way they could see to do it that would make sense to them. Actually FIXING the underlying issue via suggestions does not seem to get through.

I'm inclined to disagree about eliminating JJ. The fix [imho] would be to make the JJ shake crippling on the way up, AND the way down if you're below, say, 10% throttle. that way "aerial" combat is still possible, for all weight classes, but jump sniping is a practical impossibility, reguardless of weight class. But, that would require that you go back to concept on how JJ are working in the first place, and fix trajectory based on velocity at he base level.

[Haupt Thomas Schneider]

Zuesacoatl, on 24 March 2014 - 07:16 PM, said:

Lawl. I love you guys that say "everyone". I do not jump snipe, and yet. ...what for it.... I do not agree with you. Wow, what a twist. I still love my Victors and I am still very effective in them. YOU may not like the changes or can not adjust to them, there are are some that do, and can, and also understand the why. L2pb. Adapt or die, etc etc

"Just because we can do a thing does not mean that we must do that thing."
I can adapt too, but we shouldn't have too. I don't jump snipe either. The Victor [unlike many of the mechs in this game] was performing exactly as it ought by the standards set forth in Battletech [the paper game that this computer game is supposedly based off of]. With the big engine, that ligitimately fits in this mech [by canon], it _does_ move like a stock 55 tonner. People need to suck that up. I am disappointed very unhappy that my enjoyment of this game in the areas where PGI has gotten things right, has to to stripped away, after the fact, by bad programming or the poor behavior of power gamers "not playing fair".

[DeathlyEyes]

The underlying issue remains, getting close to a mech with weapons tradiationally used for brawling is not nearly as dangerous as it needs to be. Reducing fire rate/dps of weapons traditionally used for sniping is the only fix to this issue. We will see the same issues arrise again with the introduction of the summoner. Nerfing the summoner to handle worse than an Atlas won't be a viable solution. PGI needs to stop treating symptoms and start treating causes.

[Zeusacoatl]

There is no issue with brawlers unless you are a jump sniping or lrm boating rig that whined enough to have this nerf happen in the first place. And, there is still nothing wrong with the Victors other than someone losing an ability to game the system, or to those working on their excel sheets trying to min/max a rig. I have no tears for either. If you can adapt, than do so, do not give me the "but I don't wanna!" Crap. Those of us who can adapt have done so, move along now. If you want a 55 ton mechs movement, go get a damp 55 ton mech. Or do you really need that crutch on the Victor to get your win loss ratio back to what it was post patch?

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Zuesacoatl, on 25 March 2014 - 04:11 PM, said:

There is no issue with brawlers unless you are a jump sniping or lrm boating rig that whined enough to have this nerf happen in the first place. And, there is still nothing wrong with the Victors other than someone losing an ability to game the system, or to those working on their excel sheets trying to min/max a rig. I have no tears for either. If you can adapt, than do so, do not give me the "but I don't wanna!" Crap. Those of us who can adapt have done so, move along now. If you want a 55 ton mechs movement, go get a damp 55 ton mech. Or do you really need that crutch on the Victor to get your win loss ratio back to what it was post patch?

People didn't ***** about these builds: VTR-9B, VTR-9K, VTR-9S

They do ***** about these builds, however, citing them as "cheesy" and "meta-abusive:" VTR-9B, VTR-DS

So I did adapt. And my W/L and K/D went up drastically from pre-nerf. Because pre-nerf, those first three builds required some piloting sense and ability to do well. Using their maneuverability and JJs to be in the right place at the right time. I never put PPCs on my Victors until the JJ and twist/turn nerfs.

Now one of my builds is a poptart and the other's playstyle consist of "Hit R, hold crosshair over CT or damaged component, hold down Mouse 1, watch target die."

So tell me, why take the VTR-9S when the HGN-733C does it better?

HGN-733C:

• Torso Yaw Speed 72°/s
  
• Arm Yaw Speed 162°/s
  
• Torso Yaw 108°
  
• Arm Yaw 10°

VTR-9S:

• Torso Yaw Speed 72°/s
  
• Arm Yaw Speed 182°/s
  
• Torso Yaw 108°
  
• Arm Yaw 10°

So, please, in your apparently infinite wisdom... which of those two are the better mechs? Because, before the nerf, the Victor actually had a fighting chance against that Highlander because it could out-maneuver it. Now it can't.


They didn't just nerf the twist, they nerfed the turn. I can live with the twist nerf, already do. The Highlanders feel correct now. But the Victor's turn nerf is what sealed it's fate. It can't out-turn my Highlanders anymore. Go to Testing grounds and full throttle in a circle with both, the Highlander turns tighter, so do my Atlas, Awesomes, and Battlemasters.


In fact, I'll attack your argument even further. My AWS-9M and AWS-9M eat medium mechs for breakfast. Even with their shit hitboxes, their twist speed and range, combined with speed, turning speed means that most medium mechs and even light mechs never leave my crosshairs. And the armor of the Awesome with it's standard engine means it's not going down easy because it WILL win a shooting war with a medium, and it already gives them a run for their money in the speed and twist departments.

Should we nerf it too? Make the Awesome even less awesome, because it's an Assault that moves like a medium. And that's what your argument states you want, less viable bottom-weight assault mechs.

AWS-9M:

• Torso Yaw 120°
  
• Arm Yaw 40°
  
• Torso Yaw Speed 82°/s
  
• Arm Yaw Speed 168°/s
  
• Run Speed 66.8kph
  
• Armor 448/496

AWS-9M:

• Torso Yaw 120°
  
• Arm Yaw 40°
  
• Torso Yaw Speed 96°/s
  
• Arm Yaw Speed 196°/s
  
• Run Speed 78.0kph
  
• Armor 448/496

So, by your own words maybe you should "learn2debate."

[Osric Lancaster]

This is the hunchback 4P debacle all over again. The 4P was considered a credible threat because it could move fast and carried nine medium lasers. Remember how they then downgraded it's engine cap? Remember how they then introduced ghost heat, thus invalidating the reason for the 4P engine downgrade in the first place? Notice how they're about to 'balance' ballistics? Drawing any parallels here yet?

If they end up making the Victor 9S or 9B the new trial assault in the same patch as the ballistics re-balancing I won't know whether to laugh or cry. If they end up making the LB-10x weaker I'll probably manage both.

[DeathlyEyes]

Instead of nerfing the chassis PGI needed to nerf the weapon systems responsible for the issue. a 2 PPC 2 AC5 meta mech can do 11.66 DPS. Brawling mechs rarely can sustain much more than that anyway. There is no disadvantage to getting close with a meta mech unless a mech is face hugging. Meta mech players rarely play alone and are coordinated so if one is getting face hugged the others can turn and get that mech off still doing nearly as much damage as the close range mech. Without SRMs working properly and the spread of lasers there is very little disadvantage of getting close with the mech's being used as snipers.

The true solution would have been lowering the DPS of the sniper mechs, increasing recycle time of the PPCs, AC5 and AC10. Or increasing DPS of close range weapons. Unfortunately they did this nerf before even trying to do this and have stated that they will be looking at ballistic weapons next, oh joy.

Edited by SLDF DeathlyEyes, 26 March 2014 - 02:37 PM.