134 replies to this topic

[Zvolimir the Blackhand]

Thought I would post here about the LRMageddon - Patch Review from the Gatekeepers sums up our concerns.

[Kitty Bacon]

You did not live through the real LRMageddon, I take it.. When Art was first introduced and boats were doing 2-4k damage >_> This is FAR from a LRMageddon.

[arghmace]

"With very little warning, we all woke up to 175km/h LRM volleys."

Oh dear, how hard can it be to get your units straight. Those would be some ridiculously slow missiles.

Edited by arghmace, 25 March 2014 - 08:40 AM.

[Zvolimir the Blackhand]

You're right - it's m/s. Corrected.

[arghmace]

I really wouldn't call -20% to both turning and twisting for the Victor "losing a little mobility", that's quite huge.

As for the LRM's, you're exaggerating like so many others. I get it, they can be annoying, especially for noobs, but they're still not the best weapon there is. Try winning a high level tournament with them, I dare you.

Also, the article might use an update to acknowledge that PGI has already stated that the LRM speed will be dropped to 160m/s and their shaking impact will go from 0.4 to 0.35.

[Zvolimir the Blackhand]

arghmace, on 25 March 2014 - 08:49 AM, said:

I really wouldn't call -20% to both turning and twisting for the Victor "losing a little mobility", that's quite huge.

As for the LRM's, you're exaggerating like so many others. I get it, they can be annoying, especially for noobs, but they're still not the best weapon there is. Try winning a high level tournament with them, I dare you.

Also, the article might use an update to acknowledge that PGI has already stated that the LRM speed will be dropped to 160m/s and their shaking impact will go from 0.4 to 0.35.

Before the new patch, the Victor was my best mech. I didn't seem to feel the changes - maybe a little - that's why I said "a little".

About LRMS - you're talking about solo play, obviously. I don't care how solo "tournament" play goes. Now they are mandatory in company formation, and I'm not talking about the obligatory few you used to take as point suppression. You aren't supposed to be able to solo in a missile artillery battery.

I doubt the speed decrease will change the situation too much. 15m/s 1/3 the speed change. They should make the extra AMS systems available NOW if that is the plan for next build. Impact from weapons doesn't bother me - shake is good, and as realistic as one can be when talking about 80 ton walking robots.

[Novakaine]

Zvolimir the Blackhand, on 25 March 2014 - 07:59 AM, said:

Thought I would post here about the LRMageddon - Patch Review from the Gatekeepers sums up our concerns.

Stop the madness seriously.
The only thing wrong with them are the people stand still in the middle of open ground and get targeted.
Then whine because they can't slink up in their jagerbombs and alpha somebody.
But coming from House Liao im not surprised.

[arghmace]

Zvolimir the Blackhand, on 25 March 2014 - 09:08 AM, said:

About LRMS - you're talking about solo play, obviously. I don't care how solo "tournament" play goes. Now they are mandatory in company formation, and I'm not talking about the obligatory few you used to take as point suppression. You aren't supposed to be able to solo in a missile artillery battery.

No, I'm talking about company play. Companies used to use some obligatory LRM's before, really? Never seen it. Last week I played 12 man drops on Wednesday, Thursday and Sunday. We didn't use LRM's and neither did any of our opponents. I guess it remains to be seen if some top teams will change their doctrine but so far even these buffed LRM's are not used in company play to my experience.

[Zolaz]

LRMs move to slow against a smart opponent. LRMs are hard countered by defensive systems. Those two things are stopping LRMs being used in a competitive environment.

[Kjudoon]

Don't worry little poptarts.

Your QQ prayers have been heard.

They're backing off to 160m/s today, and leaving AMS buffed.

That bad LRM5 will no longer threaten you.

[Master Maniac]

Not touching the game for a good long time. Hopefully they'll unscrew their pooch. I happen to very much like MWO for the most part, but the LRMs have rendered the game absolutely unplayable...once again.

Kjudoon, on 25 March 2014 - 09:51 AM, said:

Don't worry little poptarts.
Your QQ prayers have been heard.
They're backing off to 160m/s today, and leaving AMS buffed.
That bad LRM5 will no longer threaten you.

You do realize that Assaults pop-tart because attempting anything else results in them getting roflpwned by LRM spam, right? Right? Hmmm? Emerge from cover for the one or two seconds needed to get locked up by ANY enemy on the field, and an assault instantly gets swarmed by more than a hundred LRMs. Your only recourse is to hide in cover and use jumpjets for snap shots.

Listening to the LRM apologists whine about poptarting is pure hilarity.

EDIT: Watched the V-Log. Looks like they're going forward with that braindead 3, 3, 3, 3 rule. HAHAHAHAH. *breathes* HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAH

This game is completely dead, now.

Edited by Master Maniac, 25 March 2014 - 10:23 AM.

[Kjudoon]

That is because the two systems counter each other. Now it's 'walk into the open and get shot by AC/PPC galore. LRMs counter that.

The ones who get bent over are the brawlers and all short range weapon systems. They need a buff, not a nerf to the other two that SHOULD be on equal footing but are not... still.

Post Edit response: Quad 3 will not kill the game. I'm not a big fan of it as I'd prefer Treb4 (4/4/4) and keep lance structure. This is similar to how Magic: The Gathering solved game balance problems for them with the infamous fire decks where they put a 4 card limit on any one card and select cards got a 1 card limit. No more decks with tons of Mox and Sol Rings and Black Lotus with fireballs every draw.

Instead it created tons of variety and interesting deck design play. Yes it's stylized, no it's not "realistic", yes it will make you think and totally screw over the 8 assault or light ROFLstomps.

This is a GOOD thing. If both teams are on equal weight... give or take... you will win or lose based on skill in play AND mech design more than being out tonned 200-500 or suffer the attack of the swarm.

Again, not a bad thing for game balance. Backing LRMs away from being a true counter to ACs, unless an absolute monster nerf is coming.... bad.

Edited by Kjudoon, 25 March 2014 - 10:36 AM.

[Master Maniac]

Indirect and direct-fire weapons should *NOT* be on equal footing. Ever. By any stretch of the imagination.

Also, going by the VLog, they want to make heavies and assaults even *slower* and more ponderous than they were before, all the while *increasing* missile flight speed? This essentially guarantees that the only viable strategy for assaults is LRM boating or jump sniping, one or the other. Assaults are no longer going to be able to do what they were *made* to do, and that's wade straight into the midst of a brawl and do some serious, 'Mech-crippling damage.

Assaults in particular are going to be completely non-viable before long. I have no idea what the devs are thinking. Light 'Mechs are already capable of making an Atlas turn its tail and run in terror - they don't need to be even harder for an Assault to engage than they already are. And now we have LRMs savaging anything slower than 70kph without their users having to even break a sweat.

For now, I'm dropping this broken excuse of a game, which is bizarre because I used to be a hardcore MWO addict, always set against the vocal minority's negativity. Maybe I'll see if it's worth playing a couple of months from now. Judging from the ridiculous direction the devs seem to be taking, I can't see that happening.

Hope you spent my ~$200 well, PGI. I doubt you'll be getting a penny more from me.

EDIT: Okay, dude, seriously, this is not Magic the Gathering. This is not League of Legends. MWO isn't (yet) and should never be a numbers-based game (although the devs seem to want to make it so due to massive playerbase complainery).

The 'Mech is not the end, it's a *means* to an end. It should be as useful in a battle as the pilot makes it be. Arbitrarily limiting the numbers of each class of 'Mech is ridiculous, and immersion-breaking at that. Every match would become rote, repetitive, and hackneyed. It's the dumbest idea they've dredged up yet - and in light of this senseless, unnecessary LRM speed increase, that is certainly saying something.

EDIT EDIT, repeat for emphasis: LRMs REQUIRE NO SKILL OR AIMING ABILITY FROM THEIR USER.

Therefore, they should NEVER be "on equal footing" with weapons that do. Also, direct-fire weapons inherently require their user to expose themselves to their target in order to score a hit. LRMs don't even require *this* facet of gameplay.

LRMs should NOT be "equal" to direct fire weapons. Ever. EVER.

Edited by Master Maniac, 25 March 2014 - 10:53 AM.

[Kjudoon]

You're right. Guided Indirect weapons are superior. They are superior in real life too for killing armored targets. Anything that can kill without exposing yourself is by very definition, superior. ACs should not be the premier weapon of the game, but that makes for a realistic, but boring game to play. Even as an LRM pilot I recognize that.

On the other hand, long range direct fire weapons are now artificially enhanced to the king of this hill. Short range weapons cannot compete with them. Never have never will unless you artificially make them so superior they cannot be ignored. You don't bring a knife to a gun fight unless you know you can get in close and deal with the long range weapons while minimizing risk.

Some people don't want reality, they want a stylized experience where LRMs are flavor text, others want a simulator that does not alter gameplay but accurately represents weapon/loadout ability whatever that may be. Right now, both of these are in conflict and the fantasy is winning.

[Zvolimir the Blackhand]

Kjudoon, on 25 March 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

You're right. Guided Indirect weapons are superior. They are superior in real life too for killing armored targets. Anything that can kill without exposing yourself is by very definition, superior. ACs should not be the premier weapon of the game, but that makes for a realistic, but boring game to play. Even as an LRM pilot I recognize that.

So you are an LRM pilot. What does that mean? That you only pilot mechs with LRM's?

Kjudoon, on 25 March 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

On the other hand, long range direct fire weapons are now artificially enhanced to the king of this hill. Short range weapons cannot compete with them. Never have never will unless you artificially make them so superior they cannot be ignored. You don't bring a knife to a gun fight unless you know you can get in close and deal with the long range weapons while minimizing risk.

This represented the Battletech game, where guided missiles weren't the best technology.

Kjudoon, on 25 March 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

Some people don't want reality, they want a stylized experience where LRMs are flavor text, others want a simulator that does not alter gameplay but accurately represents weapon/loadout ability whatever that may be. Right now, both of these are in conflict and the fantasy is winning.

I'm unclear here.

As an LRM pilot, are you pro fast missiles or not?

Last time I checked, fast missiles were winning. So...that fantasy is that guided missiles should be superior? Didn't you just say that in real life guided missiles are superior?

[Gas Guzzler]

LRMs have not ruined the game, they just force you to think before you move your Mech out into the open. Assaults no longer viable? I don't thinks so. Assaults just require careful positioning on the battlefield, and are not forgiving if you smurf up. If you play smart though, they are still very rewarding. The problem is a lot of times teams of mediums and lights just decide to move as a group and forget that they are abandoning their teammates in slow moving assaults. This seems to happen every few games that I drop in a Banshee/Atlas, but that's a teamwork issue not a mech issue.

[Burke IV]

Master Maniac, on 25 March 2014 - 10:37 AM, said:

The 'Mech is not the end, it's a *means* to an end. It should be as useful in a battle as the pilot makes it be. Arbitrarily limiting the numbers of each class of 'Mech is ridiculous, and immersion-breaking at that. Every match would become rote, repetitive, and hackneyed. It's the dumbest idea they've dredged up yet - and in light of this senseless, unnecessary LRM speed increase, that is certainly saying something

If this game had all the backgroud universe that a "mechwarrior" game should have, then mech types would be limited, probably by house and by what your particular unit might have access to. Because none of that is ever going to happen PGI has to introduce an artifical limit. There is no background universe so there is no immersion anyway. No painful losses and no stunning victorys, just the same pointless battle over and over. Its either artificial limits or atlas conga... Im amazed anybody would complain about forcing people to play something like a proper lance that did have some sort of role play element that meant you cant just drive whatever mech you like in a bubble.

[Master Maniac]

Kjudoon, on 25 March 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

You're right. Guided Indirect weapons are superior. They are superior in real life too for killing armored targets. Anything that can kill without exposing yourself is by very definition, superior. ACs should not be the premier weapon of the game, but that makes for a realistic, but boring game to play. Even as an LRM pilot I recognize that.

On the other hand, long range direct fire weapons are now artificially enhanced to the king of this hill. Short range weapons cannot compete with them. Never have never will unless you artificially make them so superior they cannot be ignored. You don't bring a knife to a gun fight unless you know you can get in close and deal with the long range weapons while minimizing risk.

Some people don't want reality, they want a stylized experience where LRMs are flavor text, others want a simulator that does not alter gameplay but accurately represents weapon/loadout ability whatever that may be. Right now, both of these are in conflict and the fantasy is winning.

To say that "short range weapons" are doomed against long range direct fire weapons is fallacy, and patently untrue. Hence my ability to score consistent 6-8 kill matches with nothing more than medium lasers. All that it requires is tactics, forethought, skill, and effort. If this were purely a numbers game, then you'd have a strong point. But it isn't. Skill is a real and definitive factor when it comes to which weapon is effective against which player at any given time.

I've said this time and time again, but I'll say it again: long range direct fire weapons are *not* easy to score hits with, especially when your target is moving - worse still, if they're moving between points of cover. Cover completely negates the effect of direct fire weapons - which isn't always the case with LRMs, due to their uncanny tracking ability.

Lighter, cooler, and massed fast-firing short-ranged weapons can and will cut a long-ranged 'Mech in half when the short-ranged 'Mech using them comes in close. Ballistics and lasers are (mostly) fine where they are now, at least compared to LRMs, which are essentially are easy-damage aimbot weapons. But they are not without issues, I'll grant.

- Ballistics *need* a recoil mechanic - reticule shake, torso twist, something. Anything. Because as it is now, AC/2's and AC/5's are just as skill-free as LRMs when up close.

- Lasers seem less effective than they should be in general with hit detection being what it is now. Especially in regards to light 'Mechs, who seem to just shrug off a fair portion of the damage.

Long range direct fire weapons are the only weapons in the game that I'd comfortably say are "fine" where they are, due to their high tonnage requirements, heavy, scarce ammo, and difficulty of aim. And when I say "long range direct fire" I am referring to the Gauss Rifle, AC's used at range, and PPCs, and I'm of course not addressing the fact that light AC's are ridiculously easy to use and skill-neutral in close combat, and will continue to be that way until the devs implement some form of tactile feedback that requires more from the player than the ability to hold the left mouse button.

Sigh. Again, I digress. I'm definitely going to enjoy that long break from MWO, that's for sure.

Burke IV, on 25 March 2014 - 11:19 AM, said:

Its either artificial limits or atlas conga... Im amazed anybody would complain about forcing people to play something like a proper lance that did have some sort of role play element that meant you cant just drive whatever mech you like in a bubble.

So nobody uses light mechs now? Mediums? Heavies? Every match is just Atlases pounding each other? What game are you playing? It's not the same one that I've been playing for about a year. Because in the game I've been playing, people pilot mechs that suit their playstyle, or just tickle their fancy. Lights and mediums are everywhere as it is, as are asymmetrical heavies with crazy, unique builds.

We don't *need* this hamfisted attempt at "balance."

And yeah, people should be able to "drive whatever mech they want" because a lot of us paid for that mech with real money.

Besides, with the way this game currently plays, no class of mech is inherently better than the others (although assaults are well on their way onto being nerfed into complete LRM-soaking uselessness). There is no need to just arbitrarily limit what players can and can't join matches with. It's silly, artificial, and just plain not fun.

Edited by Master Maniac, 25 March 2014 - 11:28 AM.

[Lyoto Machida]

Master Maniac, on 25 March 2014 - 10:18 AM, said:

You do realize that Assaults pop-tart because attempting anything else results in them getting roflpwned by LRM spam, right? Right? Hmmm? Emerge from cover for the one or two seconds needed to get locked up by ANY enemy on the field, and an assault instantly gets swarmed by more than a hundred LRMs. Your only recourse is to hide in cover and use jumpjets for snap shots.

Oh...I'm sure the LRM patch last week explains why poptarts have ruled the field for at least half a year.

Troll harder.

[Burke IV]

Master Maniac, on 25 March 2014 - 11:21 AM, said:

And yeah, people should be able to "drive whatever mech they want" because a lot of us paid for that mech with real money.

Yeah i have to give you that point. Its an unfortunate situation.