95 replies to this topic

[Mordin Ashe]

Guys, no. Don't use logic! You will scare all the whiners away, and who else will we have here to talk to? Sure not devs...

Now, wall of text inc! TL;DR version is in bold.

The biggest disparity in LRMs in general is that while they have counters and effect boons, you often encounter counters while boons are very rare. In every game there is AMS and poor information warfare, in almost every game there is ECM.
Boons? TAGs sometimes happen but NARC is very scarce again, almost noone brings it into battle. It was fun while it lastes but still, too heavy, too useless. Since TAG can't reliably break ECM and tarteting sucks under even breached ECM cover, current state of things is that LRMs are mostly underperforming because of no boons. Possible solution: boost range of NARC and make it homing missile.

Information warfare right now is the worst performing section of every battlefield warfare. Most of the time you don't see anything, targets should remain "visible" for much longer time than those two or three seconds. Other than that, information warfare is an empty vessel. The reason why ECM is so powerfull is that there is nothing else to it. Right now, ECM = "I win information warfare" button.

While people can spot the enemies there is nothing like reconing in game right now. It should be an activity that provides your whole team information on enemy team, provides you with chance to adapt to enemy strategy. The reason why there is none is very poor spotting mechanism. You see the enemy = blip blip. You don't see the enemy = nothing. Wtf? How about making the targets visible for a while longer after los is lost? Why not make all enemies "visible" when they are actually visible, without an artificial limit on view distance? We have some modules on that but those I believe go the wrong path. Information warfare should be there in the first place and modules should affect the ability of my Mech to process it and get more from it, not restrict my access to it. In current situation when I don't have any access to information warfare without proper modules and weapons (remember, TAG and NARC are also an information warfare participants) I am simply screwed and disadvantaged. This is the reason why ECM is considered strong.

Devs should take away all ECM effects on one Mech when under some 300-500 meters from that specific Mech. It would still provide an invisibility cloak on longer distances but wouldn’t have too excessive impact on game. Also take away the Angel ECM simply because it breaks the information warfare too much, you will never balance it with this abomination in game. Plus then it would be balanced to that lousy 1.5 tons it requires and you could release it for more Mechs without breaking much.

They should make enemy Mechs targetable and visible on map for much longer period of time after the los is lost, 10 seconds should bet he beginning.

They should make the map more interactive. Did we spot an enemy Mech? Make a red stain on the map. Or make a red circle at where enemies were spotted (not only targeted!), something that would change when enemy Mechs are spotted again in different location. Mark a location of where are enemy LRMs comming from. This would put scouts back into the game and make information warfare meaningful again. You could also see the map and know what the enemy is up to and where he is/was, plus what Mechs were there. Right now it is more like who has more ECM wins, and most of the time information warfare simpyl doesn't exist.

And how does this all affect LRMs? All that is wrong with information warfare is whats breaking the game for LRM users as well as recipients. Current spotting mechanics is very poor and doesn't work even in WoT, let alone futuristic Mech game.

Edited by Mordin Ashe, 04 April 2014 - 01:40 AM.

[El Bandito]

Mordin Ashe, on 04 April 2014 - 01:38 AM, said:

Information warfare right now is the worst performing section of every battlefield warfare. Most of the time you don't see anything, targets should remain "visible" for much longer time than those two or three seconds. Other than that, information warfare is an empty vessel. The reason why ECM is so powerfull is that there is nothing else to it. Right now, ECM = "I win information warfare" button.

Well, said. Information warfare is a joke at current level.

If I can see and target five enemy mechs, I should be able to make them all appear simultaneously on the map of my allies, instead of just the one I am targeting. That's how it was in the lore. Mechs can mark multiple opponents on the map, even their configurations and status.

Right now I can only select one of the enemy for my allies to see, or have to keep switching the targeting between them. That's dumb. If I can see and target 5 mechs, then my allies should be able to see all of them on the map, and can select any one of them to focus their fire on.

Edited by El Bandito, 04 April 2014 - 01:59 AM.

[Appogee]

WintermuteOmega, on 02 April 2014 - 05:45 AM, said:

we are back to the good old meta.

No we're not. There are still more LRMs on the battlefield and they are more effective than they used to be. I do still see some LRM boats, though nowhere near as many as two weeks ago.

So, I feel LRMs are in a "better'' place now than they were. Viable without dominating. I'd still like to see more restrictions on boating them, but this is in the realm of tweaking rather than neutering.

Other than that:

Lasers could still use a bit of a buff, perhaps in terms of reduced heat or cycle times, as they're still not competitive with ACs.
Pulse Lasers need reduced tonnage or increased range.
SRMs still need to hit more reliably.

[Latorque]

Charons Little Helper, on 03 April 2014 - 08:54 AM, said:

1. Why are you using an LB-X based brawler? LB-X kinda sucks.

I know. Coupled with some MLas it can actually be quite powerful; if you can close up quickly. Much underrrated in my eyes; unlike LRMs. I hope it never gets buffed; since it would lead invevitably to the removal of LRM min range i guess.

Charons Little Helper, on 03 April 2014 - 08:54 AM, said:

2. Part of our difference of expierience may be that I mostly just play conquest - where brawlers in general come into their own more.

Possibly

Charons Little Helper, on 03 April 2014 - 08:54 AM, said:

3. Assault brawlers kinda suck - too slow to close to optimal weapons range - and they will die horribly to LRM boats. Fast bralwers who can get in their grill eat LRM boat face with ease.

(While I do use LRMs in a couple mechs - I have more mechs which are 92kph+ brawlers of one sort or another.)

Did i say assault anywhere? I preferred a LB-X mounting Flame with a 350XL. Yes; i know; baaaad mech; it's as much underrated as the LB-X. It worked pretty well for me until recently , but it's unusable now; purely thanks to LRMs. Part of the problem is that LRM can even fire into brawls with complete impunity. The Rest of the time was divided up between The IM, the JM6-DD and a K2. None mounting LRMs; since i always hated playing those while eliting. It's definitly possible to be a more effective LRM pilot than me; but claiming LRM-use to be an artform and highly complex is... . And yes, they were completely fine as they were.

[Grzly]

srm hit dedection has to be fixed. so that at least when we get close we should have some firepower

[Kjudoon]

Ngamok, on 03 April 2014 - 12:47 PM, said:

+1000 If I could because this is how I play as well. Sitting at 700+ meters to shoot LRMs isn't my thing.

Fine und dandy. As long as you don't advocate LRMs not being as viable and powerful as ACs so they balance, I'm happy. It's the gameplay and style I like and want to end it's treatment as a third or fifth class citizen.

[Ngamok]

Kjudoon, on 04 April 2014 - 08:47 AM, said:

Fine und dandy. As long as you don't advocate LRMs not being as viable and powerful as ACs so they balance, I'm happy. It's the gameplay and style I like and want to end it's treatment as a third or fifth class citizen.

Well, only reason I don't sit do far back is that i want my shots to land. At 100 m/s I was more careful because they were so slow. At 120 m/s I did better with them but still nothing over 700m got my attention because again, they were easy to dodge. At 175 m/s they felt great, but lobbing missiles at that speed really close felt a little much. But it doesn't bother me because I was good with them at 120 m/s. I didn't need the faster speeds to play with them effectively.

[Lyoto Machida]

Latorque, on 02 April 2014 - 05:34 PM, said:

Only if you are a terrible LRM pilot. Seriously; you count brawler mechs as a danger to LRM mechs in the current so-called balance? I only played LRM mechs to elite their ballistic / energy variants; but even with 120m/s brawlers were rarely a problem. As i played mostly LB-X armed brawler mechs; you had to move from cover to cover to close up to LRM - mechs; and even then you got jumped pretty often. By now; as a brawler - you better don't move at all.

And; funnily enough; it is very likely that an AMS runs out of ammo before the LRMs do.

What was your LRM accuracy from your archived stats? If you were shooting LRMs indirectly, you weren't using them very well...PUGs or not.

Latorque, on 04 April 2014 - 03:18 AM, said:

I know. Coupled with some MLas it can actually be quite powerful; if you can close up quickly. Much underrrated in my eyes; unlike LRMs. I hope it never gets buffed; since it would lead invevitably to the removal of LRM min range i guess.



Possibly



Did i say assault anywhere? I preferred a LB-X mounting Flame with a 350XL. Yes; i know; baaaad mech; it's as much underrated as the LB-X. It worked pretty well for me until recently , but it's unusable now; purely thanks to LRMs. Part of the problem is that LRM can even fire into brawls with complete impunity. The Rest of the time was divided up between The IM, the JM6-DD and a K2. None mounting LRMs; since i always hated playing those while eliting. It's definitly possible to be a more effective LRM pilot than me; but claiming LRM-use to be an artform and highly complex is... . And yes, they were completely fine as they were.

It's "unusable" now because it's most likely an issue with your piloting/positioning/awareness. I hate when people say something can't be done because I see guys in my unit doing all sorts of stuff that I can't do so it must be able to be done...I just can't do it myself (yet).

I run a Dragon with 2 LPL and 2 SRM4...by no means a meta build at all. Dragons are one of the most challenging builds to run and it's still possible to run them...even in this "era of LRMs" or whatever. Don't blame the game if you haven't adapted to current conditions.

In the end, it's almost always your own fault...go read the story of the Scorpion and the Frog.

[Charons Little Helper]

Latorque, on 04 April 2014 - 03:18 AM, said:

I preferred a LB-X mounting Flame with a 350XL. Yes; i know; baaaad mech; it's as much underrated as the LB-X.

They aren't underrated - they're considered mediocre because they are mediocre choices.

Can you do well with them? Sure.

Are they among the more powerful builds? Definitely not.

By your definition - until recently LRMs were 'underrated', and still are to some degree.

Can you do well with LRMs? Sure.

Are they among the more powerful builds? Definitely not.

If you want to use the Flame / LBX - feel free. I'll cheer you on.

But it's isn't a valid argument to claim that because said Flame / LBX build is weaker than LRMs means that LRMs are too powerful.

Edited by Charons Little Helper, 04 April 2014 - 12:46 PM.

[Kjudoon]

Ngamok, on 04 April 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

Well, only reason I don't sit do far back is that i want my shots to land. At 100 m/s I was more careful because they were so slow. At 120 m/s I did better with them but still nothing over 700m got my attention because again, they were easy to dodge. At 175 m/s they felt great, but lobbing missiles at that speed really close felt a little much. But it doesn't bother me because I was good with them at 120 m/s. I didn't need the faster speeds to play with them effectively.

You do fight closer in than me usually. I'm getting the majority of my kills between 600-800m.

[Malorish]

I feel like I'm playing a different game than a lot of the "LRMS are fine" posters in this thread.

So many games are decided based on having the best combination of:

1) Light spotters with ECM / Tag / NARC
2) Effective LRM boats

[Sprouticus]

Malorish, on 07 April 2014 - 11:27 AM, said:

I feel like I'm playing a different game than a lot of the "LRMS are fine" posters in this thread.

So many games are decided based on having the best combination of:

1) Light spotters with ECM / Tag / NARC
2) Effective LRM boats

You may be. If you are playing with poor teammates, all it takes is for 1-2 of them to get killed early out in the open to turn a winable match into certain defeat.

Heck, even a good player can make a mistake and get caught in the open. I consider myself slightly above average and it happens to me on occasion. (3 or 4 times since the 1st LRM fix last month).

[Trauglodyte]

Malorish, on 07 April 2014 - 11:27 AM, said:

I feel like I'm playing a different game than a lot of the "LRMS are fine" posters in this thread.

So many games are decided based on having the best combination of:

1) Light spotters with ECM / Tag / NARC
2) Effective LRM boats

The best way to effectively neuter LRM teams:

- Send your lights to find and kill their spotters (Spotters tend to be lightly armed due to the necessary equipment or ill equipped to properly do the job [takes more than just looking at a mech])

- Send your mediums/lights in to close range harrass the LRM boats forcing said target and their friends to retarget

- Move with intelligence and purpose

[wanderer]

I feel like a stupidity filter running an LRM user these days.

Are you a brain-dead noob running out in the open/sitting on top of hills/thinking that a scout in water is perfectly safe,really?

LURMS. Thanks for the kill/crippling barrage followed by my team killing you because LRMs suck for actually killing anything.

Sure enough, now that people have realized that dakka > missiles we're pretty much right back to the old standby, only now people will actually plug the occasional secondary 15 or so on some 'Mechs to help out where they didn't before. It's an improvement, but it didn't change things at the top. If anything, it's impact was slightly blunted by the dialing back on missile speeds.

Paul, as frequently happens took "Lower ELO players are adapting faster" to mean "Yay, I made the missiles too good" when in reality the lack of any real dent in high-ELO play should have been a sign of "Meh, it was nice but you didn't change what was best, so we'll stick with that". As Trauglodyte noted, once people actually got the stupid out, death rain went back to "owie, that kinda stings a bit".

[Joseph Mallan]

Wanderer a Team player using Missiles is looking to help his/her team win. Sure our PPC/AC combo is tough... but add in a few barrages of missiles and that enemy falls even faster. I count Assists when I am a missile boat not kills. If I am trying to rack kills I am doing it the hard way... which is admirable. It adds to the layers of combat and I for one enjoy seeing Missiles flying through the air even if they are spelling my doom.

[Kjudoon]

wanderer, on 08 April 2014 - 02:52 AM, said:

I feel like a stupidity filter running an LRM user these days.

Are you a brain-dead noob running out in the open/sitting on top of hills/thinking that a scout in water is perfectly safe,really?

LURMS. Thanks for the kill/crippling barrage followed by my team killing you because LRMs suck for actually killing anything.

Sure enough, now that people have realized that dakka > missiles we're pretty much right back to the old standby, only now people will actually plug the occasional secondary 15 or so on some 'Mechs to help out where they didn't before. It's an improvement, but it didn't change things at the top. If anything, it's impact was slightly blunted by the dialing back on missile speeds.

Paul, as frequently happens took "Lower ELO players are adapting faster" to mean "Yay, I made the missiles too good" when in reality the lack of any real dent in high-ELO play should have been a sign of "Meh, it was nice but you didn't change what was best, so we'll stick with that". As Trauglodyte noted, once people actually got the stupid out, death rain went back to "owie, that kinda stings a bit".

Joseph Mallan, on 08 April 2014 - 05:10 AM, said:

Wanderer a Team player using Missiles is looking to help his/her team win. Sure our PPC/AC combo is tough... but add in a few barrages of missiles and that enemy falls even faster. I count Assists when I am a missile boat not kills. If I am trying to rack kills I am doing it the hard way... which is admirable. It adds to the layers of combat and I for one enjoy seeing Missiles flying through the air even if they are spelling my doom.

Yep. The buffs were ignored by high level Elos beyond "huh... what's all that screaming over there about?" In 12mans, LRMs are still non existant as a general rule, and ECM is used for tactical cover, not LRM defense because they don't need to worry about LRMs. They get the idea of cover, good placement and other counters. Most don't even worry about bringing AMS because a) the enemy doesn't bring LRMs and It's a waste of 1.5 tons best spent elsewhere.

Although the low skill LRMboats are disappearing because running LRMs they quickly have discovered is not the easy button to profit and kills like the QQLRMhatorz have promised, the stupid is still twitching out there and lots of sloppy, careless pilots keep on going all the while screaming ">explative< LRM Campers!" when they brought death upon themselves.

I would also like to say I do look at Assists, but know it's a misleading stat. 1 point of damage on any mech by choice or accident and you get the assist.

Edited by Kjudoon, 08 April 2014 - 08:36 AM.