90 replies to this topic

[BOWMANGR]

Pygar, on 22 April 2014 - 01:45 PM, said:

Sadly, the "3 rule" will help Medium mechs shine a little bit more, but the Dragon will probably fall into even more of an "ugly duckling" category than it sits in already- it will have to compete for Heavy slot space behind Jagers, Catapults, Cataphracts and Orions... and meanwhile Mediums like Shadow Hawk, Wolverines, Hunchbacks and Centurions do the "middlewieght slugger" job better than the Dragon because they have basically the same weapons/speed/armor but have more agility because they are mediums.

I'll have to disagree on that one. The Dragon competes with other Heavies only because it is classified as a Heavy, not because its role has ANYTHING to do with the role of other heavies.

Medium mechs cannot fulfill the Dragon's role and the other Heavies cannot do what the Dragon can do. Assuming that an XL is used. As I wrote above, a Dragon without an XL is a worthless mech.

If there is a reason why the Dragon won't be useful it's if the new 3/3/3/3 system doesn't promote "cavalry" tactics which is where the Dragon excels. If you build your Dragon for killing lights or brawling, you are doing it wrong as the first role is better performed with Mediums and the second with the other Heavies as you said.

Dragons need to flank, hit {hard} and run {fast}. No other mech in the game can do both and that is what a Dragon pilot needs to train as a skill.
If you stand and fight in a Dragon like you do with all other mechs, you die. As I always say to similar Dragon threads, if your enemy didn't even see your Dragon killing him, you are doing it right.

When 3/3/3/3 hits we'll see if the Dragon has a place on the battlefield. I hope it does.

[Verrue]

Should add too , that a Dragon is one of the few heavy mech that you can rush into a good place on the battlefield. People tend to overlook that thing, only focusing on DPS.

You can run to the center of Terra therma to contest the ring at the start of the game.
You put yourself on the ridge of crater in Caustic and get the first shot on the first mech of the other team.
In forest Valley , you can scare off the light trying to get Theta before any assault or other heavy show up.

Plus, any light is quite happy having you backing them up. Whit a nice XL, 340 &more, you run over 103 KPH, quite enough to run with the light pack.

[TimePeriod]

They should rename the dragon to Dragoon, would make far more sense.

[Bromineberry]

Pygar, on 22 April 2014 - 01:37 PM, said:

It also just happens that the Dragon's CT and arms are so big that the side torsos don't get hit as often as on some mechs.

You haven't played a Dragon since the hitbox tweak, have you?

BOWMANGR, on 22 April 2014 - 11:53 PM, said:

As I wrote above, a Dragon without an XL is a worthless mech.

This is correct...and the reason, why it's very sad, that the XL-friendliness is not as good as it was before.

[Pygar]

BOWMANGR, on 22 April 2014 - 11:53 PM, said:

I'll have to disagree on that one. The Dragon competes with other Heavies only because it is classified as a Heavy, not because its role has ANYTHING to do with the role of other heavies.

Medium mechs cannot fulfill the Dragon's role and the other Heavies cannot do what the Dragon can do. Assuming that an XL is used. As I wrote above, a Dragon without an XL is a worthless mech.

If there is a reason why the Dragon won't be useful it's if the new 3/3/3/3 system doesn't promote "cavalry" tactics which is where the Dragon excels. If you build your Dragon for killing lights or brawling, you are doing it wrong as the first role is better performed with Mediums and the second with the other Heavies as you said.

Dragons need to flank, hit {hard} and run {fast}. No other mech in the game can do both and that is what a Dragon pilot needs to train as a skill.
If you stand and fight in a Dragon like you do with all other mechs, you die. As I always say to similar Dragon threads, if your enemy didn't even see your Dragon killing him, you are doing it right.

When 3/3/3/3 hits we'll see if the Dragon has a place on the battlefield. I hope it does.

I would really hope I am wrong....but I am probably not- the 3 rule is going to put more pressure on the Dragon by making it compete for slot space with other heavies, and at the same time it's role as a "Fast Flanker" will be done by Mediums...and you can't substitute a Dragon into a medium slot even if it is trying to do that intended job. If you find a group that is trying to run an all out rush comp, then you might see Dragon get slotted ahead of Jager, Cata's and Orions... but most groups are going to be looking for their heavies to make up for the armor and damage they can't have being limited to only 3 assaults.

The 3 rule is going to have a weird two-way effect on the mechs you see in matches.... on the one hand you will see more mediums and lights than you are used to- but on the other hand since the slots for weight classes are limited, I think you will see "ugly duckling" mechs from the various weight classes less and less, especially in super serious "meta" groups. (Even in less serious matches, expect to see increased scrutiny over who gets to fly what vs. how good or bad they did in matches when the 3 rule comes out.)

Edited by Pygar, 23 April 2014 - 09:13 AM.

[Pygar]

BOWMANGR, on 22 April 2014 - 11:53 PM, said:

Medium mechs cannot fulfill the Dragon's role and the other Heavies cannot do what the Dragon can do.

Actually, this is the biggest problem with the Dragon...it gains the penalties of being a Heavy mech, but doesn't really get any advantages from being a Heavy- mechs like Hunchback and Centurion do the exact same job, but the extra 5-10 tons of weight the Dragon has only slows the Dragon down instead of giving it more Armor/Weapons/Speed....so everything a Dragon can do, Hunchback and Centurion can actually do better. (this was true all the way back when there were only like 10 mechs to chose from, and it's even worse now with so many good mechs in the 50-55 ton range.)

Edited by Pygar, 23 April 2014 - 09:38 AM.

[ramp4ge]

Verrue, on 23 April 2014 - 03:15 AM, said:

Should add too , that a Dragon is one of the few heavy mech that you can rush into a good place on the battlefield. People tend to overlook that thing, only focusing on DPS.

How fast is a Dragon? Because my Jug can do 79kph with just a Standard 300. I thought that was pretty quick for a heavy.

[Rear Admiral Tier 6]

ramp4ge, on 23 April 2014 - 10:01 AM, said:

How fast is a Dragon? Because my Jug can do 79kph with just a Standard 300. I thought that was pretty quick for a heavy.

97.2/106.9 with XL360

[Flagrant]

It can easily go 100 kph but need XL engine.  The other trait that is overlooked is the dragon can hill climb better than some mediums.  And with the module do it even better.  It's a tactic to use when fighting 1 on 1.  Use the terrain to get your vertical dodges in against your target.

Edited by Flagrant, 23 April 2014 - 04:28 PM.

[Pygar]

ramp4ge, on 23 April 2014 - 10:01 AM, said:

How fast is a Dragon? Because my Jug can do 79kph with just a Standard 300. I thought that was pretty quick for a heavy.

Mine does 89 after speed tweak... some people will upsize the engine even more to get around 100kph. For the most part, Dragon is just fast enough that it's hard to call them slow, but they usually aren't that outrageously fast either. (For what they can offer in "on paper" speed, they lose somewhat because of lessened agility and bigger hit boxes.)

[Modo44]

95kph (XL320) is my personal minimum. More whenever possible. Just like light mechs, the Dragon survives on speed. This is not a "trade potshots from cover" mech.

[Red Line Pilot]

about that 3/3/3/3 rule.

Isn't the dragon the lightest heavy? So if weight class and total weight are put into the balancer your team should have 5 more tons else where. You get a heavy medium to allow for a heavier assault.

This argument applies to all low-wieght -in-their-class mechs, BJ, DRG, QKD, AWS etc

[Pygar]

Red Line Pilot, on 23 April 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

about that 3/3/3/3 rule.

Isn't the dragon the lightest heavy? So if weight class and total weight are put into the balancer your team should have 5 more tons else where. You get a heavy medium to allow for a heavier assault.

This argument applies to all low-wieght -in-their-class mechs, BJ, DRG, QKD, AWS etc

No, because the 3 rule has nothing to do with tonnage... only "weight class". So bringing under-sized heavies has no benefit to the rest of your team unless your team is doing some kind of rush comp. (Which could be very possible in Conquest mode, so there's that at least.)

[Alaskan Nobody]

Bromineberry, on 23 April 2014 - 08:30 AM, said:

This is correct...and the reason, why it's very sad, that the XL-friendliness is not as good as it was before.

I dunno, only died to a blown side twice since I started using them -and both were from pilots I recognized as being exceptionally good shots.

[BOWMANGR]

Pygar, on 23 April 2014 - 09:22 AM, said:

Actually, this is the biggest problem with the Dragon...it gains the penalties of being a Heavy mech, but doesn't really get any advantages from being a Heavy- mechs like Hunchback and Centurion do the exact same job, but the extra 5-10 tons of weight the Dragon has only slows the Dragon down instead of giving it more Armor/Weapons/Speed....so everything a Dragon can do, Hunchback and Centurion can actually do better. (this was true all the way back when there were only like 10 mechs to chose from, and it's even worse now with so many good mechs in the 50-55 ton range.)

How can a Dragon compare to a Hunchback or a Centurion? They play differently. The don't use XL engines. The Dragon is faster. Dragon has ARM mounted ballistics, more armor, more weapons and comparable arm movement to both Mediums for fast maneuverability combat. The only thing holding it down is the bigger silhouette which makes it an easier target than the Mediums. And that is why a Dragon will never brawl well while a Hunchback can seriously wreck some mechs with its AC20.

The Dragon is for UNfair fights not brawls. It also has the speed to ride with Lights as mentioned above. And at the first stages of a fight it can also beat up other scouting Lights just because of sheer armor protection compared to them. You can actually scare Lights away just by meeting up with them in the initial stages of the fight.

One extra bonus of the Dragon is that there is so much hate for it in the forums that some people TRY to kill it when they see it because they think its an easy kill. This can lead to hilarious situations where you have an opponent chasing you, being "in the zone", just trying to get his easy kill and you can lead him up to your lance to teach him a lesson. There isn't anything more satisfying than drawing an enemy in your teammates kill range and watch him panic as he realises that he got into a trap.

Well, the other satisfying thing is to just kill other mechs while seemingly appearing out of nowhere but this is the only reason to play a Dragon actually so I'm not giving it the credit it deserves.

I don't know if the Dragon has a place in the new 3/3/3/3 system but what I DO know is that it can do some things that no other mechs can do, Mediums or otherwise. If the new system has a place for those things the Dragon will be played, if the new system doesn't support the Dragon's unique playstyle then it will be shelved unfortunately.


P.S. Last time I checked, the 3/3/3/3 system will also take into account tonnage size too, not just classes only. But I may be wrong on this one. I believe they said that it will have a tonnage margin into the equation, trying to fill the 3/3/3/3 slots with mechs but also take account the tonnage difference between teams. So that the lower range mechs of each class won't be a handicap to their teams. It makes sense actually.

[Red Line Pilot]

mmm, i was under the impression that there was some absolute weight balancing coming on top of the weightclass. Maybe some others can clarify?

[Pygar]

BOWMANGR, on 23 April 2014 - 12:41 PM, said:

How can a Dragon compare to a Hunchback or a Centurion? They play differently. The don't use XL engines. The Dragon is faster. Dragon has ARM mounted ballistics, more armor, more weapons and comparable arm movement to both Mediums for fast maneuverability combat. The only thing holding it down is the bigger silhouette which makes it an easier target than the Mediums. And that is why a Dragon will never brawl well while a Hunchback can seriously wreck some mechs with its AC20.

The Dragon is for UNfair fights not brawls. It also has the speed to ride with Lights as mentioned above. And at the first stages of a fight it can also beat up other scouting Lights just because of sheer armor protection compared to them. You can actually scare Lights away just by meeting up with them in the initial stages of the fight.

One extra bonus of the Dragon is that there is so much hate for it in the forums that some people TRY to kill it when they see it because they think its an easy kill. This can lead to hilarious situations where you have an opponent chasing you, being "in the zone", just trying to get his easy kill and you can lead him up to your lance to teach him a lesson. There isn't anything more satisfying than drawing an enemy in your teammates kill range and watch him panic as he realises that he got into a trap.

Well, the other satisfying thing is to just kill other mechs while seemingly appearing out of nowhere but this is the only reason to play a Dragon actually so I'm not giving it the credit it deserves.

I don't know if the Dragon has a place in the new 3/3/3/3 system but what I DO know is that it can do some things that no other mechs can do, Mediums or otherwise. If the new system has a place for those things the Dragon will be played, if the new system doesn't support the Dragon's unique playstyle then it will be shelved unfortunately.


P.S. Last time I checked, the 3/3/3/3 system will also take into account tonnage size too, not just classes only. But I may be wrong on this one. I believe they said that it will have a tonnage margin into the equation, trying to fill the 3/3/3/3 slots with mechs but also take account the tonnage difference between teams. So that the lower range mechs of each class won't be a handicap to their teams. It makes sense actually.

I dunno what to tell ya bro....Dragon was the first mech I tried to sink my teeth into when I first started playing, and back then there were only so many other mechs to compare it to....people would tell me all the same stuff about the Dragon back then, and it's all more true now that there are just that many more really good mechs in the 50-55 ton range. Centurions and Hunchbacks can have pretty much all the same stuff as a Dragon can- but get better agility, have more variance in load out possibilities, and can use their non-reliance on XL engines and arm weapons as huge advantages in combat....the Dragon gets no advantages for being slightly heavier, only penalties.
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As for the 3 rule, my understanding is it is weight class based and has nothing to do with tonnage.... could be wrong on that, but I think they left out tonnage for the sake of simplicity while dealing with the PUGs and the MM.

Edited by Pygar, 23 April 2014 - 01:45 PM.

[Shatterpoint]

I XL everything, with the meta you'll die just as quick with a regular engine.

[Ashan An]

Pygar, on 23 April 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

I dunno what to tell ya bro....Dragon was the first mech I tried to sink my teeth into when I first started playing

That actually explains a lot, whatever your opinion on the Dragon is, everyone can agree on the fact that is one of the (if not THE) most difficult mechs to play properly.
If you picked it up as your first mech i'm not surprised that it didn't go well.

The dragon is usually overlooked because of the Huge CT, but is still a good mech, arguably the best flanker in the game, since it has the speed to get in position and the firepower to open sone nice holes on those juicy butts.
Compared to a medium the dragon will have either more speed or more firepower or both.


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About the MM, i'm not sure if it will be implemented immediatly or in some time, but the 3/3/3/3 formula will come with a tonnage balance (the total tonnage of the two teams will be as close as possible) and Paul said in a NGNG Podcast that the fact that using a low tonnage mech (Drg, BJ, AWS, ect...) will be balanced by either having another mech like that on the other team or (if that is not possible) having those extra 5/10 tonnage somewhere else (like an heavier assault).

Edited by JeanMarks, 27 April 2014 - 12:14 AM.

[Tarriss Halcyon]

I was one of the first players to start experimenting with the Gauss/Large Laser combination on a Dragon, back in the early stages of Open Beta. Back in Closed Beta/Early Open Beta, the Dragon was the Premium Brand of light hunter mechs. Nothing could put the stop on a Raven faster than a Dragon moving at speeds higher than the Raven's own stock engine could provide. Since then, times changed for the worse.

As a Dragon pilot, I'm somewhat mediocre nowadays. I shun most of the metagame ideals and builds. I don't run XLs on either of the heroes - my loadouts are weird, but effective. However, let it be said - if you're building a long-range skirmisher or a sniper Dragon setup, XL Engines are a MUST. You have the advantage over most other Heavy mechs with speed. Hell, not many mediums can keep up with a Dragon set up right.

I'll be frank, though. I use a Gauss/ER Large -1N. An Energyboat Flame (ER PPC/LPL/MLx2). A skirmisher Fang. (LBX, ML x3). And, until I got that free Thunderbolt, I owned no other heavies. I've mastered the first two, with Fang in Master tier with 16k exp. And trust me, on a good game, I can use up all the Gauss/LBX ammo I'm carrying and come out with at least three kills - my best was a five kill match in half a Fang, with the final kill picked up with just one medium laser left. It comes down to personal preference - my Flame and sniper are set up for supporting allied heavy mechs, (Flame is without XL) and to take advantage of the Dragon's maneuverability to hunt down and kill critically damaged LRM-boats.

To contrast, my Fang is set up to shred damaged mechs at close ranges. It's the Flanker setup of my triad, and it's my most successful heavy. XL is optional, and if I felt I needed the extra speed, I would probably have made the change ages ago.

Also, please, people, do not make the mistake of saying that Dragon is inferior to Hunchback and Centurion. It's far more maneuverable than either, and can take a larger engine than any Centurion. I pilot all three. Hunchbacks are brawlers or assault buddies. Centurions share the role of flanker, but due to the critical issue of the weapon locations (almost all on the torso), you won't see too many Centurions running around as snipers. Flanker/Harrassers, sure, but not snipers.

I still argue that Dragons are an effective counter to the sniper Ravens, though. I've killed many who belive themselves to be superior to the ungainly mech both at long range (took off the CT at 1.8km back in early OB) and by shortening the distance faster than the Raven could run. (Took off both legs with my Fang's LBX). Then again, I also argue that infantry is superior to most Ravens, so that's personal opinion and a half.