81 replies to this topic

[Trauglodyte]

Bobby Blast, on 16 April 2014 - 07:46 AM, said:

Honestly it seems a little broken.

I pulled over 1000 damage the other night in my Atlas w/ 2 PPCs, a UAC5, and an AC10 and nobody is calling them OP. I pulled 1300+ in my Awesome way back when with 1 PPC, 3 Lrg Lasers, and an LRM5 and nobody has every said that it was OP.

Damage done is a functionality of the map you're on and the circumstances under which you fight. Kills are the end result of the balance between your loadout and ability to aim vs. your target's armor values and ability to pilot. In the end, your success is nothing more than an ongoing combination of variables of which a small part is under your own control. Loadout is the smallest part of that equation.

Kaldor, on 16 April 2014 - 08:20 AM, said:

Ahh look at the defenders of the cheese builds coming out of the wood work....

Yes, its a limited build. You have to give up a fair amount to make it work. But the reward of this build is far greater than the risk/restrictions.

Lets say you come around the corner in a 40 build, boom, first volley could potentially kill or cripple the mech. Second volley 4 seconds later is a potential kill shot. 80 points of pinpoint damage is more than enough to kill almost any mech in the game, whether you hit them CT or ST, depending on XL or Standard engine. Even if they take that second volley, and get away, they are pretty much combat ineffective for the rest of the drop depending on where you hit them. Add in the fact that the common 40jag build goes at least 75kph, they even have enough speed to run down most heavies or assaults, and enough speed to keep mediums in range long enough to finish the job.

No other current build in the game can do this as reliably, not even the vaunted AC/PPC meta builds. Even at 400+ meters the damage on target is pretty decent.

I don't think that anyone is really defending the build. On the contrary, I think that a lot of people kind of look down on the build because it's power is based on the necessity of a very small map and a very dumb opponent. What good is the AC40 Jager on Alpine Valley? How powerful is it vs. a competent team that is running poptarts and LRM support? Hell, how good is it vs. a target that has speed and is driven by someone that can walk and chew bubble gum at the same time?

Quite frankly, and I said this before, taking 40 points of damage hurts but this mech only hurts up close. I can put 30 points into you at 500m and then do it again before you get into range with your AC40. By that time, if my aim is sound, your one torso is stripped meaning that you're about to now be an AC20 Jager/K2 that wasted 14 tons on nothing.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 16 April 2014 - 08:33 AM.

[Charons Little Helper]

Kaldor, on 16 April 2014 - 08:20 AM, said:

80 points of pinpoint damage is more than enough to kill almost any mech in the game, whether you hit them CT or ST, depending on XL or Standard engine.

Not really.

Assuming a hunchback puts 50 armor in their CT (a bit low actually - most put less than 14 on their back) then 80 damage won't quite kill them as they have 32 internal HP. It would take a total of 82 damage to kill them.

Orions have identical armor on their ST.

So - your statement is only true for standard engine mechs which are 45 tons or less, and for XL engine mechs 70 tons or less. (and that's assuming the Jagerbomb guesses that you have an XL & has perfect aim) I wouldn't consider those qualifiers to be "almost any mech in the game".

[Trauglodyte]

Btw, a Gauss Rifle + AC20 Jager/K2 would be a lot more frightening to me than either the AC40 or double Gauss versions. But, that's just me.

[Joseph Mallan]

I tried that Traug. I wasn't really pleased with the final results.

[Mcgral18]

Joseph Mallan, on 16 April 2014 - 07:03 AM, said:

I'll see your build and raise you 4 Clan PPC on a targeting computer!

With MWO's heat system? You're being a tad silly today Joe. You could fire ~8 ERPPCs if you have the heatsinks, but that cooldown would take forever. Add in ghost heat...

Bobby Blast, on 16 April 2014 - 07:46 AM, said:

Honestly it seems a little broken.

Well then, I guess yesterday's first match with a nerfed tri-2 SHD-2H with 6 kills, 5 assists and a tad over 1k damage means they need to be nerfed harder.

I can't remember if there was arty or not...but I'll assume yes. I only fired ~700 rounds.

Edited by Mcgral18, 16 April 2014 - 09:07 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

Joseph Mallan, on 16 April 2014 - 08:53 AM, said:

I tried that Traug. I wasn't really pleased with the final results.

Well, I won't speak for you but the Gauss isn't my kind of weapon. I tried and practiced running the GR with a lot of different weapons. But, in the end, I just had a really hard time working the charge up into my game. I'm lacking the skillz, I guess.

[Kaldor]

Trauglodyte, on 16 April 2014 - 08:29 AM, said:

I don't think that anyone is really defending the build. On the contrary, I think that a lot of people kind of look down on the build because it's power is based on the necessity of a very small map and a very dumb opponent. What good is the AC40 Jager on Alpine Valley? How powerful is it vs. a competent team that is running poptarts and LRM support? Hell, how good is it vs. a target that has speed and is driven by someone that can walk and chew bubble gum at the same time?

Quite frankly, and I said this before, taking 40 points of damage hurts but this mech only hurts up close. I can put 30 points into you at 500m and then do it again before you get into range with your AC40. By that time, if my aim is sound, your one torso is stripped meaning that you're about to now be an AC20 Jager/K2 that wasted 14 tons on nothing.

I agree with you. Its a trash build, that is highly effective against bad players. Thats why I dont see many of them at the ELO level Im at. We know how to kill them.

And yup, the mech is not good on any map that routinely requires you to shoot in excess of 400m. But if its a map that can allow them to close up in the 300m or less range, they are extremely deadly, and if you are caught flat footed by one, you can put your head between your legs and kiss your.... You get the point.

And yup, lights are the best attacker against a 40 build, but even they tend to shy away, because they know if they catch a pair of 20 rounds in the leg, they are screwed.

Charons Little Helper, on 16 April 2014 - 08:31 AM, said:

Not really.

Assuming a hunchback puts 50 armor in their CT (a bit low actually - most put less than 14 on their back) then 80 damage won't quite kill them as they have 32 internal HP. It would take a total of 82 damage to kill them.

Orions have identical armor on their ST.

So - your statement is only true for standard engine mechs which are 45 tons or less, and for XL engine mechs 70 tons or less. (and that's assuming the Jagerbomb guesses that you have an XL & has perfect aim) I wouldn't consider those qualifiers to be "almost any mech in the game".

Lets do some simple build comparisons here for the mechs you mentioned.

Hunchy: generally about 45 armor CT, 35 armor ST. Very few run XLs in the Hunchy and for good reason. So CT is the preferred target. 45-40=5 armor left after first volley. After second volley all the shooter has to do is crit the engine, which is very likely. And even if you elect to go ST to shoot their Hunch off, they are near combat ineffective the rest of the drop. The same can be said if they only take a single volley CT.

Orion: generally about 65 armor CT, 45 armor ST. Not sure on how many run XLs, but Id imagine its a fair amount. I cant speak to it, as I dont own any. I shoot STs generally on Orions unless they are running an AC20, because they are running a Standard. Any other ballistic, and I aim ST. Once again, a single volley of 40 damage will near take this mech combat ineffective. The second is potentially a kill on either CT or ST.

Highlander: generally about 85 armor CT, 55 armor ST. Lots of people run XLs, but the ST on the Highlander can be tough to hit. Assuming they can hit the ST, 2 volleys = dead Highlander. If they shoot CT, then the Highlander has enough armor to take a couple, but even then, they will be cherry red CT, and be near combat ineffective.

I can do this all day.... Math is hard M'kay?

[Why Run]

Nah, thats rather weak.
ILYA MUROMETS 56 34 22 1.55 106 39 2.72 32,858 62,889 05:59:33
Try again though, enough nerfing shit.

[Charons Little Helper]

Kaldor, on 16 April 2014 - 09:29 AM, said:

Lets do some simple build comparisons here for the mechs you mentioned.

In MWO you can't crit the engine. Ever.

My math is sound - and no 50 ton medium ever puts only 45 armor in their front CT (I own several). I don't know about other Orions - but I put my front ST at 50 - which will protect the ST from two full volleys of an AC40.

I can't weigh in on Highlanders (don't own one) but it would take 3 solid volleys to take out their ST using your armor value of 55.

And I never said that you couldn't take out the ST of a medium with a standard engine with a pair of volleys. Obviously you can (hence my reference to XL engines with mechs 70 tons and below) but that wasn't what you were claiming before.

It seems that I disputed your claim - and then you proceeded to change what your claim was so that you can still be correct. Your new claim is correct. Your old one was wrong.

[Mcgral18]

Charons Little Helper, on 16 April 2014 - 10:13 AM, said:

In MWO you can't crit the engine. Ever.

Actually, you can. It does nothing, but it takes crits just like heat sinks or weapons.

At least, that's what I've read.

[Trauglodyte]

Mcgral18, on 16 April 2014 - 10:16 AM, said:

Actually, you can. It does nothing, but it takes crits just like heat sinks or weapons. At least, that's what I've read.

You can and can't. If you get popped in the center torso and a critical occurs, you will lose heat sinks. So, in that case, you are critting the engine. The thing is, the heat sinks that can be crit are only the additional ones so, while you are storing them in the engine, you're actually storing them in the CT but without a hit to criticals. Weird and convoluted, I know.

[Kaldor]

Charons Little Helper, on 16 April 2014 - 10:13 AM, said:

In MWO you can't crit the engine. Ever.

My math is sound - and no 50 ton medium ever puts only 45 armor in their front CT (I own several). I don't know about other Orions - but I put my front ST at 50 - which will protect the ST from two full volleys of an AC40.

I can't weigh in on Highlanders (don't own one) but it would take 3 solid volleys to take out their ST using your armor value of 55.

And I never said that you couldn't take out the ST of a medium with a standard engine with a pair of volleys. Obviously you can (hence my reference to XL engines with mechs 70 tons and below) but that wasn't what you were claiming before.

It seems that I disputed your claim - and then you proceeded to change what your claim was so that you can still be correct. Your new claim is correct. Your old one was wrong.

No lets look again:

Quote

80 points of pinpoint damage is more than enough to kill almost any mech in the game, whether you hit them CT or ST, depending on XL or Standard engine.

Ill stand by that, and the comment that it is for "most mechs". Not until you get into the upper tonnage assaults can you truly stack enough armor to really be safe. If you are front stacking your armor, then thats your business. I dont get too far off of stock armor distribution because I dont like to have glaring weak spots in my armor distribution. If you are running rear armor in the teens on any build except maybe a light and some mediums, then the AC20 builds can be even more problematic if you get caught unaware.

Your statement that "but I put my front ST at 50 - which will protect the ST from two full volleys of an AC40." is false. 3 AC20 shells will strip all armor, the 4th could potentially kill you providing the RNG works against you. The engines can be crit out, and you only need to destroy 3 slots of an engine to kill it and the mech. Also, 50 points from ST on an Orion leaves you very vulnerable in the rear ST at 14 points.

Next, if you are running 50 points of armor front CT on a Hunchy you are only putting 14 on your back CT as they only have 64 points total. That makes you super weak and easy prey for any light that gets some back shots on you. or anytime you might be trying to get away against something else.

Edit: Last I checked 20+20+20 > 50 as well...

As far as mech ownership. I own all Hunchys and Cents for my mediums. I own all Cats, Phracts, and QuikDraws for heavies. I own all Awesomes, Highlanders, and Atlai for my assaults. I dont own all the Hero variants of those classes just in case you are wondering. All of those chassis are at master level on every variant so its not like Im blowing smoke here.

Keep twisting what I say to your own ends!

Trauglodyte, on 16 April 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

You can and can't. If you get popped in the center torso and a critical occurs, you will lose heat sinks. So, in that case, you are critting the engine. The thing is, the heat sinks that can be crit are only the additional ones so, while you are storing them in the engine, you're actually storing them in the CT but without a hit to criticals. Weird and convoluted, I know.

Yes and no? LOL, typical of the mechanics of this game. However, if all your armor is missing in a location, and you take a 20 round in that location, chances are your screwed anyway you slice it.

Edited by Kaldor, 16 April 2014 - 11:03 AM.

[Bhael Fire]

Took my dual 20 Jag out for a spin last night after collecting dust for a few months; didn't score more than I usually do with any other build...especially since AC/20s got the projectile speed nerf.

Most of the people I'm matched against these days are smart enough to hit my fragile side torsos from a safe distance, so I maintain that this build is mainly the bane of noobs.

So, yeah, leave AC/20s alone. If you're constantly getting punked by dual 20s, please learn to read your enemy's loadout (in the upper right corner of your HUD) before advancing on them.

[Voivode]

You guys are talking about volleys that are subject to ghost heat. After two volleys your next shot will shut you down. Maybe you messed up one opponent, maybe even killed one, but against that deathball he was with, you are out of luck.

That's a strong limitation that places the mech in a backup role.

Put those twin AC/20s on an assault mech....now there's some problems.

[ThatBum42]

Voivode, on 16 April 2014 - 12:13 PM, said:

Put those twin AC/20s on an assault mech....now there's some problems.

Dual AC/20 Cicada thread.

Yeaaahh...

[Mad Strike]

flipover, on 14 April 2014 - 05:25 AM, said:

Any kind of loadout is OP if you know how to position and play.
Dual AC20 are a danger up close, but I can toy with a dual AC20 mech anyday from 500-550m+ distance...

I totally agree with that.

Problem is when a 4 man premade wants to bring 4 2xAC20 mechs.....i can't wait for the new team 3/3/3/3 organization.

[R Razor]

Dual 20's and dual Gauss are what gives around 20% of the basement dwellers in this game a reason to live......without them, they can't rack up relatively easy kills and the level of e-peen shrinkage leads to mass suicides...........save the Duals!!!!!!

[Mad Strike]

R Razor, on 16 April 2014 - 03:41 PM, said:

Dual 20's and dual Gauss are what gives around 20% of the basement dwellers in this game a reason to live......without them, they can't rack up relatively easy kills and the level of e-peen shrinkage leads to mass suicides...........save the Duals!!!!!!

lol

Better watch out bro or squeaker freedom fighters will start crying "I play the way i #$% want!!! " or "thanks to you this game is ruined for everyone (just for him)"

Edited by strikebrch, 16 April 2014 - 05:16 PM.

[Kaldor]

Voivode, on 16 April 2014 - 12:13 PM, said:

You guys are talking about volleys that are subject to ghost heat. After two volleys your next shot will shut you down. Maybe you messed up one opponent, maybe even killed one, but against that deathball he was with, you are out of luck.

That's a strong limitation that places the mech in a backup role.

Put those twin AC/20s on an assault mech....now there's some problems.

Fair enough. Alpha your first volley in. Chain fire rounds 3 & 4 so you dont overheat. Even chain firing everything isnt a bad idea to be honest. A 1/2 sec between firings really isnt anything if you catch someone standing still and can improve hit detection. Ive used macros to fire AC5s with a 1/10th of a second between firings and the damage increase is noticeable.

Im a little fuzzy on this but how does damage transfer work exactly? If you target has 50 points of armor in a location and you hit it with 80, the remaining 30 transfers to the internals does it not?

In case someone is having problems with the math:
20+20+20+20 > 50

[wanderer]

Let's also remember that a critical deals additional internal damage for good measure, too. And an AC/20 critting is a LOT of additional damage.