187 replies to this topic

[Josef Nader]

I'm going to lay down some insight on you folks, 'cause it has become abundantly clear to me that nobody around here understands Ghost Heat, what it was supposed to fix, and why it works. I know for a fact that the bulk of you are going to start screaming about how Ghost Heat is awful and it needs to disappear in the next patch or sooner, but this reveals a supreme ignorance about how this game works and what is -actually- unbalanced.

I'm going to come right out and say it.

Ghost heat was never intended to fix "alpha strikes".

Think about how ghost heat works for a moment. If it was designed to prevent us from firing a ton of different weapons at once, wouldn't it blanket limit the number of weapons we could fire in a single trigger pull?

Alpha strikes in of themselves are not over powered. Think about an Atlas, who usually has to manage 3 different weapon behaviors in order to pull off a successful alpha strike. Nobody's complaining that that Atlas is OP. Nobody really cares about alpha strikes. What they care about is alpha strikes with nothing but the same weapon. This means that the pilot does not have to manage multiple weapon behaviors or change how he aims between firing 1 weapon and firing 6 weapons. There is no deviation, so it's the same as that pilot having 1 weapon that's x times as powerful as a standard version. The 4/6 PPC stalker, for example, might as well have just had a single PPC that was 4/6x stronger than a regular PPC, because it was exactly the same to the pilot pulling the trigger. The splat cat might as well have had a single SRM 36, as there was no thought required to simply running up and pressing M1 to recieve candy.

They didn't have to manage that many different weapons systems, because they were all identical, and this made the amount of effort required for that splat cat or PPC stalker to score damage and kills significantly less than a different mech that was required to manage different weapons systems.

So why not force people to mix loadouts? Why not create a system where these builds are no longer possible? Because that's dumb and restrictive, and still exploitable. Why -shouldn't- a mech be able to pack 4 PPCs? Why -can't- I pack 2 AC/20s on a mech with the tonnage? What about stock loadouts that pack multiples of the same weapon, like the King Crab or the Awesome? PGI doesn't want these mechs or loadouts to go away, and ghost heat solves that perfectly. It allows these mechs to exist, but it forces more skillful play from these large boats. The Awesome needs to split his fire between his different PPCs to avoid heat generation. The King Crab (or any other dual AC20 mech) needs to plant two separate trigger pulls to avoid overheating, rather than simply clicking to receive candy. Ghost heat is a system that forces these builds to be more complex in their play style, without restricting their existence.

Yes, the 2x PPC/2x AC/5 build might still be point and click, but compare it to previous meta loadouts. In order to get solid damage out of the AC/5, you need to keep it on target, expose yourself, land multiple shots in the same section, and in general it behaves very differently from the PPC. The PPC is a slow firing burst weapon, the AC/5 is a rapid fire DPS weapon. Just because they have a synergy in projectile speed, heat brackets, and range doesn't mean that they aren't very different weapons systems requiring specific considerations to get mileage out of them. The 3x PPC/Gauss Rifle Highlander, for example, simply arm locked, jumped up, pulled the trigger, and planted 45 damage in a single component. PPCs and gauss rifles were very similar in role and playstyle; long range, slow RoF, similar projectile speed (at the time), and pinpoint accurate. Neither of them was a DPS weapon. Similarly, the 4x PPC builds that took over the meta simply pulled the trigger to recieve candy. As long as you had enough sense to not pull the trigger when you were high on your heat scale, you never had any other considerations to make.

Yes, the 2x PPC/2x AC/5 pop tart is still strong, but you don't see builds packing 4-6 of the same weapon dominating the game anymore, and that's incredibly refreshing. These builds still exist, and in the right hands they can still completely dominate the game (I have a friend who never took the 4 PPCs off of his Stalker, and he still kicks ass). Ghost heat forced variety, and in that respect it is incredibly successful, and vital to this game's continued success.

Whether you like it or not, Ghost Heat worked flawlessly in what it was intended to do, and is probably the least resource intensive, most effective solution to the problem it was intended to fix.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

lol...

So not meant to fix alpha strike...meant to fix single weapon alpha strikes...but neglects the fact that PPC's and Gauss Rifles...then PPC's and AC's basically act in such a similar fashion (FLD), that it totally missed the mark.

Oh and then it nerfed a bunch of different builds that never needed to be nerfed.

AWESOME.

And thanks for talking down to all of us Josef. Always great to read your posts.

[Joseph Mallan]

Josef Nader, on 21 April 2014 - 07:06 AM, said:

I'm going to lay down some insight on you folks, 'cause it has become abundantly clear to me that nobody around here understands Ghost Heat, what it was supposed to fix, and why it works. I know for a fact that the bulk of you are going to start screaming about how Ghost Heat is awful and it needs to disappear in the next patch or sooner, but this reveals a supreme ignorance about how this game works and what is -actually- unbalanced.

I'm going to come right out and say it.

Ghost heat was never intended to fix "alpha strikes".

Think about how ghost heat works for a moment. If it was designed to prevent us from firing a ton of different weapons at once, wouldn't it blanket limit the number of weapons we could fire in a single trigger pull?

Alpha strikes in of themselves are not over powered. Think about an Atlas, who usually has to manage 3 different weapon behaviors in order to pull off a successful alpha strike. Nobody's complaining that that Atlas is OP. Nobody really cares about alpha strikes. What they care about is alpha strikes with nothing but the same weapon. This means that the pilot does not have to manage multiple weapon behaviors or change how he aims between firing 1 weapon and firing 6 weapons. There is no deviation, so it's the same as that pilot having 1 weapon that's x times as powerful as a standard version. The 4/6 PPC stalker, for example, might as well have just had a single PPC that was 4/6x stronger than a regular PPC, because it was exactly the same to the pilot pulling the trigger. The splat cat might as well have had a single SRM 36, as there was no thought required to simply running up and pressing M1 to recieve candy.

They didn't have to manage that many different weapons systems, because they were all identical, and this made the amount of effort required for that splat cat or PPC stalker to score damage and kills significantly less than a different mech that was required to manage different weapons systems.

So why not force people to mix loadouts? Why not create a system where these builds are no longer possible? Because that's dumb and restrictive, and still exploitable. Why -shouldn't- a mech be able to pack 4 PPCs? Why -can't- I pack 2 AC/20s on a mech with the tonnage? What about stock loadouts that pack multiples of the same weapon, like the King Crab or the Awesome? PGI doesn't want these mechs or loadouts to go away, and ghost heat solves that perfectly. It allows these mechs to exist, but it forces more skillful play from these large boats. The Awesome needs to split his fire between his different PPCs to avoid heat generation. The King Crab (or any other dual AC20 mech) needs to plant two separate trigger pulls to avoid overheating, rather than simply clicking to receive candy. Ghost heat is a system that forces these builds to be more complex in their play style, without restricting their existence.

Yes, the 2x PPC/2x AC/5 build might still be point and click, but compare it to previous meta loadouts. In order to get solid damage out of the AC/5, you need to keep it on target, expose yourself, land multiple shots in the same section, and in general it behaves very differently from the PPC. The PPC is a slow firing burst weapon, the AC/5 is a rapid fire DPS weapon. Just because they have a synergy in projectile speed, heat brackets, and range doesn't mean that they aren't very different weapons systems requiring specific considerations to get mileage out of them. The 3x PPC/Gauss Rifle Highlander, for example, simply arm locked, jumped up, pulled the trigger, and planted 45 damage in a single component. PPCs and gauss rifles were very similar in role and playstyle; long range, slow RoF, similar projectile speed (at the time), and pinpoint accurate. Neither of them was a DPS weapon. Similarly, the 4x PPC builds that took over the meta simply pulled the trigger to recieve candy. As long as you had enough sense to not pull the trigger when you were high on your heat scale, you never had any other considerations to make.

Yes, the 2x PPC/2x AC/5 pop tart is still strong, but you don't see builds packing 4-6 of the same weapon dominating the game anymore, and that's incredibly refreshing. These builds still exist, and in the right hands they can still completely dominate the game (I have a friend who never took the 4 PPCs off of his Stalker, and he still kicks ass). Ghost heat forced variety, and in that respect it is incredibly successful, and vital to this game's continued success.

Whether you like it or not, Ghost Heat worked flawlessly in what it was intended to do, and is probably the least resource intensive, most effective solution to the problem it was intended to fix.

So Jenners with 6 Medium lasers are not dangerous?

[Jin Ma]

its supposed to prevent boating

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Jin Ma, on 21 April 2014 - 07:15 AM, said:

its supposed to prevent boating

And fails miserably, because boating isn't the real problem.

The real problem is the heat system and instant FLD convergence.

[Rhaythe]

Maybe it worked. Maybe it didn't. But I haven't been shot by 5 PPCs all at once from a stalker hiding 1.5 klicks away in a LONG time. I'm okay with that.

[Joseph Mallan]

Rhaythe, on 21 April 2014 - 07:16 AM, said:

Maybe it worked. Maybe it didn't. But I haven't been shot by 5 PPCs all at once from a stalker hiding 1.5 klicks away in a LONG time. I'm okay with that.

At that range you'd be taking what... >10 damage total?

[Jin Ma]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 21 April 2014 - 07:15 AM, said:

And fails miserably, because boating isn't the real problem.

The real problem is the heat system and instant FLD convergence.

IDK about you but i havent seen a good AC2 boat, SRM6 boat, PPC boat, AC40 alpha since.

And it might be my opinion but i'm glad to see more weapon variety as a result, so i guess it depends on whether you think boating should be in the game or not

at the time they implemented ghost heat AC40 jagers and 3PPC1Gauss highlanders 2ppc1gauss cataphracts were predominant builds

Edited by Jin Ma, 21 April 2014 - 07:27 AM.

[Rhaythe]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 April 2014 - 07:17 AM, said:

At that range you'd be taking what... >10 damage total?

Just an illustration. Point being it does solve the problem it was meant to solve, albeit in a foolhardy manner that is way more baffling and patchworky than it needs to be. Boats can still boat. Just not with one mouse click.

[Joseph Mallan]

You say that as if players around the world haven't been doing just that since the first Mech fired on TT.

[Rhaythe]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 April 2014 - 07:23 AM, said:

You say that as if players around the world haven't been doing just that since the first Mech fired on TT.

You say that as if all tabletop mechanics translate well to videogames.

[101011]

Jin Ma, on 21 April 2014 - 07:18 AM, said:

IDK about you but i havent seen a good AC2 boat, SRM6 boat, PPC boat, AC40 alpha since.

And it might be my opinion but i'm glad to see more weapon variety as a result, so i guess it depends on whether you think boating should be in the game or not

So you have not seen any AC40 alphas...what? BoomJagers are still running strong, and let me tell you, they sure do not need to single-fire to keep from overheating.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Jin Ma, on 21 April 2014 - 07:18 AM, said:

IDK about you but i havent seen a good AC2 boat, SRM6 boat, PPC boat, AC40 alpha since.

AC/2 boats suck, have always sucked and now suck more with the new patch. I'm sorry you had trouble with them.

SRM6 boats went away due to the removal of splash damage and huge HSR issues. And honestly even if HSR was fixed right htis moment, SRM 6 boats without splash damage are not scary at all.

PPC boats are mostly gone, aside from really good players who can do a 2 by 2 and time it to avoid ghost heat. Of course they were replaced by the PPC/Gauss, which were replaced by dual AC5 dual PPC due to the charge mechanic. Did it really accomplish anything? Not really.

AC/20 boats are alive and well. Takes a very slight amount of skill now at least...but honestly nothing major.

[Davers]

In all there GH threads there is a common theme.

1. 6 PPC Stalkers were always a joke build, but 4 PPC Stalkers were deadly and are still good.
2. You can get around GH with LRMs if you pick the right launchers.
3. People want to be able to fire 3-4 Large Lasers without GH.

[FupDup]

I've never really understood this so-called "war on boating" that some people seem to wage.

Who cares if somebody wants to specialize at one thing and do it really really well, at the cost of being garbage at any other things? I.e. who gives a crap if a Catapult wants to be powerful inside of 270 meters, but completely 100% useless against targets outside of 270 meters? Or how about LRM boats who aren't smart enough to equip Medium Lasers or some other backup weapon for targets who get within 180 meters? Or how about laser/AC/2 boats who spread their damage all over and can be defeated easily by proactive torso twisting? Etc.

The only time boating is ever actually a "problem" is when they don't have sufficient weaknesses that make them too difficult to counter reliably, such as when PPCs only generated 8 heat. Outside of bonkers cases like that, most boats do in fact have specific strategies that work well against them.


And outside of gameplay, boats are an integral part of Battletech and have been since the game's inception.

[Ultimax]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 April 2014 - 07:14 AM, said:

So Jenners with 6 Medium lasers are not dangerous?

That's a good point.

I imagine it was left untouched because it's a very close range, fairly high risk build and at that tonnage range there isn't much else realistically that most light mechs can slot in numbers.

It's MLAS, MPL, SLAS, SPL, Machine Gun, Flamer.


What is odd is that I can take 4x LRM 5s and do more damage than if I took 2x LRM 10s - and this is on a build that can support 2x 10 tube launchers.


So it's not a perfect system, but I do get what J. Nader is getting at (and I'm not fond of Ghost Heat as the solution either as it unfairly penalizes some weapon groups arbitrarily)

Edited by Ultimatum X, 21 April 2014 - 07:47 AM.

[Blacksoul1987]

FupDup, on 21 April 2014 - 07:40 AM, said:

I've never really understood this so-called "war on boating" that some people seem to wage.

Who cares if somebody wants to specialize at one thing and do it really really well, at the cost of being garbage at any other things? I.e. who gives a crap if a Catapult wants to be powerful inside of 270 meters, but completely 100% useless against targets outside of 270 meters? Or how about LRM boats who aren't smart enough to equip Medium Lasers or some other backup weapon for targets who get within 180 meters? Or how about laser/AC/2 boats who spread their damage all over and can be defeated easily by proactive torso twisting? Etc.

The only time boating is ever actually a "problem" is when they don't have sufficient weaknesses that make them too difficult to counter reliably, such as when PPCs only generated 8 heat. Outside of bonkers cases like that, most boats do in fact have specific strategies that work well against them.


And outside of gameplay, boats are an integral part of Battletech and have been since the game's inception.

cause the one button warrior games are easy cheesey in previous games if it couldn't boat you didn't bother using it. one button warrior is boring and has low skill cap. and you seem to forget that while that srm catapult is a sacrificing range it was easier to use and more effective than other mixed builds that were meant to brawl.

[Roadbeer]

FupDup, on 21 April 2014 - 07:40 AM, said:

And outside of gameplay, boats are an integral part of Battletech and have been since the game's inception.

Just to illustrate this.

The lowly Catapult.

It's actually DESIGNED to be a missile boat, but if you try to use it "as intended", you're completely boned. Same as the Awesome, Stalker and probably any number of "under achieving" variants of random chassis. GH is bad, and they should feel bad.

IMO, and I've been trying to come up with the right wording to make a post out of it. GH wouldn't be needed if the Quirk System was used to buff under performing variants, rather than be used as a nerfhammer for superior variants.

Using the Catapult as an example again...

All of it's launchers are on big, beautiful, ears, which are basically giant radiators for the launchers and are nowhere near the core of the chassis. Give the Catapults a 10% reduction to heat generation(when using missiles) AND a 10% increase to 'reload' speed. You know, help it do what it was DESIGNED to do. Instead, it suffers the same heat penalities as if you try to jam 3 LRM 15 launchers into the core of a D-DC.

Edited by Roadbeer, 21 April 2014 - 07:56 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Agreed, it's not the boat itself that's the problem.

It's the mechanics behind the weapons systems coupled with our hitbox and armor system being pulled from TT.

Even with double armor, we have major issues when someone can put 30-40 damage in a single spot repeatedly.

[Artgathan]

FupDup, on 21 April 2014 - 07:40 AM, said:

I've never really understood this so-called "war on boating" that some people seem to wage.

Who cares if somebody wants to specialize at one thing and do it really really well, at the cost of being garbage at any other things? I.e. who gives a crap if a Catapult wants to be powerful inside of 270 meters, but completely 100% useless against targets outside of 270 meters? Or how about LRM boats who aren't smart enough to equip Medium Lasers or some other backup weapon for targets who get within 180 meters? Or how about laser/AC/2 boats who spread their damage all over and can be defeated easily by proactive torso twisting? Etc.

The only time boating is ever actually a "problem" is when they don't have sufficient weaknesses that make them too difficult to counter reliably, such as when PPCs only generated 8 heat. Outside of bonkers cases like that, most boats do in fact have specific strategies that work well against them.

And outside of gameplay, boats are an integral part of Battletech and have been since the game's inception.

I believe that the point the OP is making is that Ghost Heat doesn't actually limit boats - it simply discourages the big "Death Star" alpha with multiples of the same weapon. I don't have a problem with boats, but I do like that they have to chain fire - it forces more skill upon their application as the OP pointed out.

@ Davers: Yes, the 4 PPC stalker still exists, but you don't see many 4 PPC alpha strikes (most pilots now volley fire in pairs - that is what Ghost Heat was meant to accomplish).