Jump to content

Dear Atlas Missile Boats:

Plea

624 replies to this topic

#1 Void Angel

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Marauder
  • The Marauder
  • 6,595 posts
  • LocationParanoiaville

Posted 26 April 2014 - 10:53 PM

The Atlas is a very poor missile-only platform for a variety of reasons:
  • It doesn't have the space for it.The Atlas' missile tubes are all in its right torso - right next to the ECM on the D-DC. This means that you can have, at most, 35 missiles per salvo on that chassis, or 40 on the D or RS - unless you're deliberately gimping yourself by forgoing ECM and/or Artemis. This is an insufficient throw weight around which to build a 100-ton Battlemech.
  • You're wasting tonnage on excessive ammunition. A "pure" Atlas missile boat with a 325 STD, 35ALRMs, TAG, and a Medium Laser (like Dave Barry, I swear I am not making this up) will have enough ammunition and heat sinks to sustain fire for seven minutes and 51 seconds. That means that if he had a target that whole time, he could pound out indiscriminate LRM fire for longer than the combat phase of many matches actually lasts. Of course, this is not realistic - realistically, you'll have periods where there's no targets, or choose not to engage an intermittent lock - but even if you're firing 75% of the time, you'll still have ammunition for a staggering nine minutes and 14 seconds of combat. This is simply too much ammo, even if you come to the battle foolishly intending to indiscriminately rain everything that moves.
  • Or an overlarge engine. Atlas engines are expensive; at the upper range of ratings - say 325 and higher - the tonnage to increase your engine size ramps up heavily, for only a minor increase in overland speed. Higher engine ratings also affect your torso maneuverability and turn rate, however, so brawlers often pay the tonnage tax to mount fast engines - but an LRM boat with no real secondary guns does not benefit nearly so much from a big engine. For example the 6.5 ton difference between a 325 and 350 rated engine could be spent on weaponry rather than 4.5 kph - without sacrificing the builds LRM-centric goals.
  • Every single alternative does it better. Seriously: every single one. No matter what Atlas chassis you choose (most choose the D-DC,) there is a Stalker that does it better; or a Highlander; or a Battlemaster; or an Awesome. Only the Victor and Banshee are outclassed by the Atlas as a missile platform - all the other chassis have at least one variant that has better hardpoints, tubes, and critical space.
  • Your energy hardpoints are very low. The Atlas' energy hardpoints are at about waist-level. You're shooting from the hip, which means that you have to expose a very large portion of your silhouette to use TAG (even if you use a corner, you have a very broad 'mech; same thing applies.) Since TAG is a critical tool for you to be able to get good effects with your missiles, this is a serious drawback.
  • It doesn't have the tubes for it. You've only got one 10-tube and two 6-tube hardpoints on your D-DC; the other Atlases have less. This is why your missiles come out in a messy stream - which makes them more vulnerable to AMS, gives your target more opportunity to spread damage and seek cover, and slows their rate of fire (your launchers don't start to recycle till the last missile is away.)
In general, the only thing the Atlas clearly has going for it as a missile boat is that it is somewhat tougher than the alternatives. Even ECM is of dubious value, since it comes at the cost of restricting throw weight - if your weapons for a 100-ton death machine could fit comfortably on a Catapult, you're doing it wrong.



Atlas missile boats, unless they isolate themselves, are frequently among the last to die - but this is not a good thing. What it means is that the enemy has been killing targets whose ratio of firepower to toughness is much higher than an Atlas LRM boat: Consider an AC/40 Jaegermech, or an Ultra AC/5 Illya Muromets build. Either of those 'mechs are considerably easier to kill, and bring much more direct firepower (i.e. they will kill you faster than an LRM boat.) So by removing your Atlas from the front lines, you've removed the option for the enemy to shoot at you, the hard target, rather than your glass cannon supports.

It's not my purpose in this post to insist that no one should never put any LRMs on an Atlas as part of a larger build. But boating LRMs through that chassis is simply a Bad Idea for empirical reasons. You may point out that you get high damage numbers with your Atlas LRM boat, but you'd get better numbers and performance from the superior alternatives I mentioned - and your team would be better off.

Finally, there are two things involved with any guide: First, all players have their own areas of aptitude as well as a general level of skill. If you're good enough with your specialty to maintain a positive win/loss ratio (KDR and damage are deceptive with LRMs and are not good measures of overall success) to excel in whatever build, don't stop because you read something on the internet - if it's working, treat countervailing guides as food for thought.

The second point to remember about any guide is that you're not allowed to be personally affronted by it. Any guide you read represents the writer's best analysis on the subject of the guide, and while you can object to his reasoning, or to actual rudeness, you don't have the right to be offended or hurt because someone disagrees with you on the internet.

This guide is my best analysis on what is wrong with boating LRMs on an Atlas: that the game's mechanics empirically disadvantage such builds, and that any pure-boat Atlas can be improved with the addition of significant secondary weaponry.

Edit,05MAY14: reformatted and added a point.
17MAY14: Revised now for great justice!

Edited by Void Angel, 19 May 2014 - 07:47 PM.


#2 Modo44

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • 3,559 posts

Posted 26 April 2014 - 11:06 PM

AimRobot did it, but he did not leave highlights. Basically, you bring enough missiles to spam 3xLRM15 all match -- including dumb firing to drain AMS early. You sit in the middle of your team to give ECM and have protection from anyone trying to charge. And even if they do, it takes a while to break all that armor, giving your friends time to kill. It is certainly a joke build, but skilled pilots in PUGs can pull it off.

#3 Void Angel

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Marauder
  • The Marauder
  • 6,595 posts
  • LocationParanoiaville

Posted 26 April 2014 - 11:21 PM

The problem is that you can provide ECM with far greater firepower if you bring more than just missiles - and my Battlemaster 1S can spam LRMs at a higher throw weight for almost 4 solid minutes, not including heat. I could bring more LRMs, but I'd have to drop the engine lower than I'd like. My point is that the opportunity cost of building an Atlas entirely around its least-powerful weapon system is too high to justify those builds.

Sure, I could do a build like you described and make it work from time to time - but it still wouldn't be optimal, and I'm not your average Atlas driver.

#4 Alaskan Nobody

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Determined
  • The Determined
  • 10,358 posts
  • LocationAlaska!

Posted 26 April 2014 - 11:25 PM

I used to argue against a lot of Victor Morson's (and other people's) "Laws" for missile boating (to the point where I was accused of only posting to talk about how those laws should be ignored) but this one I will agree with - even the advantages of smaller tube sizes are offput by the Stalker family's 6 tube launchers in the side torso. <_<

Which is not to say I say don't put LRM on your Atlas, just that you really don't want to make them your primary weapon on an Atlas. :(

Edited by Shar Wolf, 26 April 2014 - 11:26 PM.


#5 Appogee

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 10,966 posts
  • LocationOn planet Tukayyid, celebrating victory

Posted 26 April 2014 - 11:32 PM

OP forgot to mention. You are denying your team of 100 tons that could and should be doing something useful.


View PostShar Wolf, on 26 April 2014 - 11:25 PM, said:

Which is not to say I say don't put LRM on your Atlas, just that you really don't want to make them your primary weapon on an Atlas. :(

This. Use a diverse loadout.

#6 CPL Madison

    Member

  • PipPipPip
  • The 1 Percent
  • 98 posts

Posted 26 April 2014 - 11:36 PM

View PostVoid Angel, on 26 April 2014 - 10:53 PM, said:

STOP IT.

The Atlas is a very poor missile platform for a variety of reasons:
  • It doesn't have the tubes for it. You've only got one 10-tube and two 6-tube hardpoints on your D-DC; the other Atlases have less. This is why your missiles come out in a messy stream - which makes them more vulnerable to AMS, gives your target more opportunity to spread damage and seek cover, and slows their rate of fire (your launchers don't start to recycle till the last missile is away.)
  • It doesn't have the space for it.The Atlas' missile tubes are all in its right torso - right next to the ECM on the D-DC. This means that you can have, at most, 35 missiles per salvo on that chassis, or 40 on the D or RS - unless you're deliberately gimping yourself by forgoing ECM and/or Artemis. This is an insufficient throw weight around which to build a 100-ton Battlemech.
  • Your energy hardpoints are very low. The Atlas' energy hardpoints are at about waist-level. You're shooting from the hip, which means that you have to expose a very large portion of your silhouette to use TAG (even if you use a corner, you have a very broad 'mech; same thing applies.) Since TAG is a critical tool for you to be able to get good effects with your missiles, this is a serious drawback.
  • Every single alternative does it better. Seriously: every single one. No matter what chassis you choose (most choose the D-DC,) there is a Stalker that does it better; or a Highlander; or a Battlemaster; or an Awesome. Only the Victor and Banshee are outclassed by the Atlas as a missile platform; all the other chassis have at least one variant that has better hardpoints and tubes.
In general, the only thing the Atlas clearly has going for it as a missile boat is that it is somewhat tougher than the alternatives. Even ECM is of dubious value, since it comes at the cost of restricting throw weight - if your weapons for a 100-ton death machine could fit comfortably on a Catapult, you're doing it wrong.


Atlas missile boats, unless they isolate themselves, are frequently among the last to die - this is not a good thing. What it means is that the enemy has been killing targets whose ratio of firepower to toughness is much higher than an Atlas LRM boat: Consider an AC/40 Jaegermech, or an Ultra AC/5 Illya Muromets build. Either of those 'mechs are considerably easier to kill, and bring much more direct firepower (i.e. they will kill you faster than an LRM boat.) So by removing your Atlas from the front lines, you've removed the option for the enemy to shoot at you, the hard target, rather than your glass cannon supports.

It's not my purpose in this post to insist that no one should never put any LRMs on an Atlas as part of a larger build - though I don't think such builds are optimal right now, and the most experienced players I know will agree with me. But boating LRMs through that chassis is simply a Bad Idea for empirical reasons. You may feel that you get high damage numbers with your Atlas LRM boat, but you'd get better numbers and performance from the superior alternatives I mentioned - and your team would be better off.




i agree stop, unless your on the other team then by all means take away your teams meat shields and let your heavys/mediums charge our assaults, that always goes well for your team

#7 Modo44

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • 3,559 posts

Posted 26 April 2014 - 11:45 PM

View PostVoid Angel, on 26 April 2014 - 11:21 PM, said:

Sure, I could do a build like you described and make it work from time to time - but it still wouldn't be optimal, and I'm not your average Atlas driver.

Which part of "joke build" did you not understand?

#8 _____

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Cub
  • The Cub
  • 742 posts

Posted 27 April 2014 - 12:08 AM

I wouldn't "boat" LRMs, if the definition is only carrying LRMs and a few backup weapons. But a couple of launchers in your Atlas can be pretty effective. You're slow, so your teammates will have targeted the enemy way before you. So while you're getting your slow a** to where they are, you can launch a few missiles as support. You're also often waiting for the right time to make a push, so you can also launch a few salvos while you're behind cover.

Missiles are especially important on an RS and K because if you want to fully utilize your weight, the lack of a second ballistics slot leaves a lot of weight open - unless you want to carry heavy and high heat PPCs and LPLs, in which case you need more heatsinks and you don't have the slots for those.

#9 Tahribator

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Fire
  • Fire
  • 1,565 posts

Posted 27 April 2014 - 12:55 AM

I can't agree enough. Every time I see an Atlas having two or more LRM launchers or even a single LRM20, I know it's going to be an easy kill no matter what mech I'm in. Heck, I know our chances of winning are considerably better.

You may think it's your mech and you can do whatever you want with your mechs, but by bringing an Atlas on the field you also get responsibilities. That's not sitting back and sniping with PPCs, or lobbing a puny LRM stream but being on the front line, intimidating your enemy and giving your enemies something to shoot at rather than your squishy DPS mechs.

It will be even more important with the 3/3/3/3. Having an Assault not filling its optimal role will just contribute to further streamrolls.

#10 Lucky Noob

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Sovereign
  • The Sovereign
  • 1,149 posts

Posted 27 April 2014 - 01:00 AM

Having 1 Launcher on your Atlas is just Awesome, youre slow, and often you simply cant fire at enemys, with 1 Lrm you can always provide Firepower to your team, no matter where the enemy is, you have the tons to easy load one LRm Rack and dont loos to much direct Firepower.

Boating in an Atlas is bad, having 1 Rack is what everyone shoud do.

#11 Samziel

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Seraph
  • The Seraph
  • 503 posts
  • LocationFinland

Posted 27 April 2014 - 01:08 AM

I occasionally see people who tells me to mind my own business when they drive ECM'less DDC just to have more LRM's. I really hate them.

#12 Petard

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • Bad Company
  • 251 posts
  • LocationGawler, South Australia

Posted 27 April 2014 - 01:18 AM

View PostSamziel, on 27 April 2014 - 01:08 AM, said:

I occasionally see people who tells me to mind my own business when they drive ECM'less DDC just to have more LRM's. I really hate them.


SERIOUSLY?!!!....IMO, anybody that drives a DDC without ECM, in order to load a whole extra ton or 2 of missiles, just has to be borderline intellectually challenged...That is the most ridiculous thing I have heard of in months.... :(

Edited by Petard, 27 April 2014 - 01:19 AM.


#13 Modo44

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • 3,559 posts

Posted 27 April 2014 - 01:22 AM

You would not remove ECM to get more ammo, you would do it to fit Artemis.

#14 Samziel

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Seraph
  • The Seraph
  • 503 posts
  • LocationFinland

Posted 27 April 2014 - 01:25 AM

View PostPetard, on 27 April 2014 - 01:18 AM, said:


SERIOUSLY?!!!....IMO, anybody that drives a DDC without ECM, in order to load a whole extra ton or 2 of missiles, just has to be borderline intellectually challenged...That is the most ridiculous thing I have heard of in months.... :(

I've seen that and those who say they have better use for that 1,5 tons. Yes, seriously.

#15 Modo44

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • 3,559 posts

Posted 27 April 2014 - 01:40 AM

The LRM Atlas (approximation) is a joke build, but its semblence of usability comes from keeping ECM and actually doing a little more than standing far behind and making it rain. If you remove ECM, a more dangerous set up can be done on a Highlander.

Edited by Modo44, 27 April 2014 - 02:15 AM.


#16 Sarru

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Shredder
  • 1,229 posts

Posted 27 April 2014 - 02:04 AM

View PostVoid Angel, on 26 April 2014 - 10:53 PM, said:

Only the Victor and Banshee are outclassed by the Atlas as a missile platform

Not so sure about it, lol. :( ALRM40 + high-placed Tag!

#17 Modo44

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • 3,559 posts

Posted 27 April 2014 - 02:13 AM

And so we arrive at the real issue with all of those, which is, they do virtually nothing that an LRM heavy could not.

#18 Void Angel

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Marauder
  • The Marauder
  • 6,595 posts
  • LocationParanoiaville

Posted 27 April 2014 - 07:22 AM

View PostModo44, on 26 April 2014 - 11:45 PM, said:

Which part of "joke build" did you not understand?

The part where someone could mistake it for something practical by reading your post. =)

View PostOisha, on 27 April 2014 - 02:04 AM, said:

Not so sure about it, lol. ;) ALRM40 + high-placed Tag!

Sorry, but the Dragonslayer is just as bad a missile boat as the D-DC. It's the number of missile tubes.

#19 Void Angel

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Marauder
  • The Marauder
  • 6,595 posts
  • LocationParanoiaville

Posted 27 April 2014 - 07:26 AM

As for those that forgo ECM - yeah, I've seen that too. People do it to fit Artemis, or more launchers.

This kind of build can seem effective to someone who's not experienced, because standing in the back and raining all match will A: deal enough ineffective, scattered damage to seem comparable to other 'mechs, and B: often make you the last person alive, leading to the impression that it's your team that failed, not your build.

#20 Modo44

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • 3,559 posts

Posted 27 April 2014 - 07:34 AM

View PostVoid Angel, on 27 April 2014 - 07:22 AM, said:

The part where someone could mistake it for something practical by reading your post. =)

Quit answering after reading the first sentence, and you will not mistake anything for something else.





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users