58 replies to this topic

[AlmightyAeng]

thisisxerxes, on 30 April 2014 - 02:19 AM, said:

I play in a group of 4.
We're now doomed to be the only organized element on our team?

I understand they've probably done this to speed up matchmaking which has taken a hit trying to enforce 3/3/3/3 - but seriously, was there no better way?

It has nothing to do with matchmaking. It has everything to do with non-grouped players complaining that groups influence winning too much. I know. Lame, right?

[thisisxerxes]

Modo44, on 30 April 2014 - 08:16 AM, said:

I am not sure why you think it is mindless. I so wish we could see player Elo.

I'm not having a stab at you. You said public queue matches were just for fun, which I interpreted as mindless.

Modo44, on 30 April 2014 - 08:16 AM, said:

Tools to organize into 12-mans do not preclude having a public queue that can be fun for anyone just randomly dropping by.

What I'm getting at with 'tools' is that communication is the advantage premades have over puggers.
Just because someones playing a pick-up group, doesn't mean they don't want to cooperate. Premades dominate because they cooperate with eachother. Puggers would, if they could.

I don't want to organize myself into a 12 man. I just want to be able to drop into a game, and be able to effectively coordinate with my newfound lance/company-mates , through chat, through keyboard commands to mark targets. Information.

It seems like if PGI would sort out the silent pugger problem, they'd solve SO MANY of the games problems, which they're trying to patch up all sorts of other ways. Like by enforcing only 1 premade per team. That's what I'm talking about.

Ghost Badger, on 30 April 2014 - 08:20 AM, said:

It has everything to do with non-grouped players complaining that groups influence winning too much. I know. Lame, right?

Yes! So give puggers what they need to compete.

[Modo44]

In essence, you are asking for a shit system (again, hurting solo players badly) to remain shit. That would not force PGI into anything because they are already at their limit. It would (and already has) effectively drive many players away from the game.

If you have constructive suggestions on what communication tools would help, join the relevant threads. If not, quit ******** on everyone who plays solo.

[Jonathan Paine]

Premiss: Having dropped 10,000+ matches. Finding that the previous matchmaker was completely and utterly broken.

I favor the current plan of building each side around a premade, then filling in with pugs. I believe that if this gets implemented successfully (sigh), it will encourage newer players to hang around with the premade team, and for the premade team to share some basic strategy with everyone.
Result: increased teamplay, incentive for pugs to either form their own teams or join existing teams.

I also think that this can be a stepping stone two a couple of things (if and when we get balanced drops):
1. Having teams that are bigger than 4
2. Having more than one team on either side

[Galenit]

thisisxerxes, on 30 April 2014 - 08:29 AM, said:

Yes! So give puggers what they need to compete.

What i need is a solo-pug queue and a groupqueue for the premades that i can opt in if i want.

A simple quickchat-system, like t2 had, is what would it make more fun,
but its not needed if i play against other soloplayers in a pure pugqueue,
because its not an advantage or disadvantage if noone has it.

The factor thats bringing this balance out of control are premades on coms and the problem increases expotential with every premademember and premadegroup in a match.


But good to know there is guy that knows better what i need, if i ever need to ask ...

[DemonRaziel]

Modo44, on 30 April 2014 - 08:03 AM, said:

Players do realize that. Which is why they join teams and play 12-mans. The public queue is for random fun drops, not for you to freely stomp on the majority who drop solo.

Why even have 4 man groups then? If the freaking majority that drops solo is always getting stomped by the evil premades that only drop in the PUG queue because they take some sick sadistic pleasure over disadvantaged enemy.

This is, in essence, a team game. There is no way to play it alone and, unless premium time is involved, you are to play it with exactly 23 other people. Accusing a pair, or small group of friends, of being some over-competitive exploiters, because they want to play the game together together as part of the 24 players in a game, is ridiculous.

Not sure if you personally play 12mans, but they are about something completely different than casual (team) play.

[Modo44]

DemonRaziel, on 30 April 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

Why even have 4 man groups then? If the freaking majority that drops solo is always getting stomped by the evil premades that only drop in the PUG queue because they take some sick sadistic pleasure over disadvantaged enemy.

I imagine because people meeting casually start forming groups, but groups bigger than 4 make it hard to balance matches. It would be great to have a group-only queue, but for now, 3/3/3/3 with one premade is the best PGI can do. I do no like it so much, but it is what it is, and better than the no limits idiocy we still get to "enjoy".

[Willard Phule]

PhoenixFire55, on 30 April 2014 - 02:58 AM, said:

PGI is simply incapable of making a matchmaker that can actually balance skill levels. This restriction changes nothing. 4-man in elite 'meta' mechs on one side, casual 4-man in 'fun' mechs on the other side ... take your best guess about end score.

I said this on another thread, but it bears repeating. I'm not a coder, but as I understand it, we've already got some kind of "team balancing" code in there somewhere. Not sure exactly what it is or how (or if) it actually works but.....

Right now, or prior to the patch or whatever, the Matchmaker was trying to balance teams based on individual Elo scores. There's some kind of complicated algorhythm that really doesn't apply that's involved in there, somewhere, but that's the bare bones of it.

So...what if they trashed the entire Elo system altogether. Set up a "level" based system based on your total GXP Earned (shows how long you've actually been playing...not necessarily whether you're a permanent derp or anything) and/or add something based on the number of 'mechs you have "Mastery" over (if you're good, you can master mechs quick...which shows ability, not longevity).

So...the matchmaker looks up matches within a given skill level (not the average of them) and fills slots one slot higher or lower. Perhaps the matchmaker could even cycle through the skill levels it's looking for. I have no idea how many "matchmakers" are operating at any given time.

Then..oh, oh, get this.....you could MODIFY that same code with something that tries to even out game changing equipment. Granted, this only works for solo droppers....groups would have to be rated based on the highest value piece of equipment in it. But, you could add a specific value for ECM, Arty/Air Strike, PPCs, Gauss, whatever....and then have the Matchmaker try to evenly distribute whatever specific piece of equipment is being used to filter with. Granted, it won't stop 4 man premades from doing whatever they're going to do, but it evens the odds of all the PUGgers with ECM ending up on the same team.

And lastly....you could MODIFY that code yet again and have it try to even things up by WEIGHT, instead of "Weight Class." Why not set it to operate in 10 ton increments? 10-20 tons, 21-30 tons, 31-40 tons, etc. Granted, again, it doesn't really effect premades (unless somehow, it used an average of their tonnage per mech in the group for their team), but at least it's fairly close.

[Modo44]

You are reinventing the wheel. Only Elo tracks all skills that help you win. Literally any other system, however complex, will miss some details and put too much weight on others. It will also likely require more processing power to use. Elo is sound, the issue is with all the randomness surrounding it (matchmaker derping, MWO instability). The launch module is a first step towards reducing that randomness. Given the discussion so far, many more will follow.

Edited by Modo44, 30 April 2014 - 12:31 PM.

[Willard Phule]

Modo44, on 30 April 2014 - 12:31 PM, said:

You are reinventing the wheel. Only Elo tracks all skills that help you win. Literally any other system, however complex, will miss some details and put too much weight on others. It will also likely require more processing power to use. Elo is sound, the issue is with all the randomness surrounding it (matchmaker derping, MWO instability). The launch module is a first step towards reducing that randomness. Given the discussion so far, many more will follow.

If you say so, like I said...I'm not a coder. I have no idea how difficult or complicated coding something other than stuff in old time land (Power Basic, COBOL, FORTRAN), I haven't got a clue.

What we DO have, or at least what's been shown to me prior to the patch, was a system that was inherently overcomplicated, difficult to change skill "brackets" (insofar as not being stuck with brand new players FOREVER) and not really applicable to the playerbase at any given time other than an area's "Prime Time."

The only way your Elo goes up or down is whether or not you end up on a team that does other than what the Matchmaker predicts. Lose if predicted to win, win if predicted to lose. And, even then, it only changes by +/- 50 at best. The maximum Elo is, I believe, 2900. You start with an 1800 as soon as you're done with your first ten "Derplamore/Nooblering Cadet Matches." The matchmaker is given a spread of 1400 to "fill in slots" in any given match. That means that unless you are the very top tier, you're stuck with brand new players FOREVER...or what feels like it, at least.

All I was suggesting was to use the existing coding that shuffles people to one team or other based on whatever value you're given by the whole Elo process. Whether it's a 2800 or a 4 or A2 or whatever vaule you're given. That coding could be used repeatedly, as a filtering process, and more simplistic values could be used.

Take, for instance, the whole "level" concept. Right now, we do the whole Elo thing...as I explained with my 4th grade writing level up there. If, instead, the assignment of a "level" based on a quantifiable value and possibly modified based on a secondary quantifiable value, then one would think that the coding to make the choices would be simpler and quicker.

Put the levels in, say 10,000 GXP increments. Still a pretty wide range but....unless you're some kind of prodigy that's invested all of Mommy's credit card into the game....you're going to be playing with people in your GXP range for a minute before you either rise to the next group of people or drop to the next lowest. You'll either be at the head of your group, getting ready to progress to the next tier (let's say 3000GXP increments) or filtering to the next lowest group. Seems rather simple to me.

As far as the "Launch Module" being a first step toward reducing the randomness, let's take a quick look at what we've got here.

Ok...cool, it lets you launch a private match. I've got my time working and the ability to set up a match looks pretty cool. Shame I'm a solo PUGger, I guess. Shame they didn't set up anything that lets someone opening the lobby to allow it to look for random players with random variables like weight class, ecm, etc.

The patch notes state that the primary change to the Matchmaker is the addition of the 3/3/3/3 rule followed by a "slight evening by the Elo process." Whatever the hell that is. As of right now, since the 3/3/3/3 filter isn't even enabled because it was released half-finished, barely tested and overcomplicated (like EVERY OTHER SINGLE THING THEY'VE DONE, EVER)....so....that means our matches are being put together by a Matchmaker using a "slimmed down and more efficient" Elo system (read that as "incomplete, not truly a priority in matchmaking)?

Which is kind of my point. Why is it that everything PGI does seems to be overcomplicated and/or overthought? Sure, I know there are variables that are not addressed in what I suggested, but they seem to be able to add additional filtering codes into stuff...we've seen them pull that off frequently. But they're far from complicated, man.

Edited by Willard Phule, 30 April 2014 - 01:01 PM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Modo44, on 30 April 2014 - 12:31 PM, said:

You are reinventing the wheel. Only Elo tracks all skills that help you win.

If it does, why did we have stomp matches all the time? 75% of my games prior to this patch were 12-0 to 12-3. Let me tell you one thing ... put two people of same Elo level into meta assault mech and a stock assault mech and their contribution will be VERY different. Elo alone doesn't work, and if you ask me it simply doesn't work at all. Its been said multiple times that a noob in meta mech playing in a 4-man all the time will have an inflated Elo that won't reflect his skill at all, etc.

[thisisxerxes]

Modo44, on 30 April 2014 - 08:43 AM, said:

In essence, you are asking for a shit system (again, hurting solo players badly) to remain shit.

No. I'm asking for an unfinished/half-baked system to near completion.
I don't think that just because a player drops solo - they don't expect to work with their team.
The game is obviously a team game, and if solo players complain about getting stomped by premade groups, they're complaining about one side being on comms coordinating, while they have to run around like headless chickens.

I think players drop solo out of convenience, not because they're antisocial or don't want to communicate.

[thisisxerxes]

DemonRaziel, on 30 April 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

Why even have 4 man groups then? If the freaking majority that drops solo is always getting stomped by the evil premades that only drop in the PUG queue because they take some sick sadistic pleasure over disadvantaged enemy.

This is, in essence, a team game. There is no way to play it alone and, unless premium time is involved, you are to play it with exactly 23 other people. Accusing a pair, or small group of friends, of being some over-competitive exploiters, because they want to play the game together together as part of the 24 players in a game, is ridiculous.

Not sure if you personally play 12mans, but they are about something completely different than casual (team) play.

Yes, this. Hallelujah.

[thisisxerxes]

The situation is really crazy.
Here we have a team game, that gives new players no real effective way to coordinate with their team.
So we've got all these third-party solutions - websites to form 12mans, external teamspeak servers, organizing games on IM etc - and that's been going on so long that it's now the norm.
Problem with that is - none of that stuff is advertised anywhere ingame. So you have this huge divide between the capabilities of the hardcore crowd, and those who just want to drop into a game and pug it.

Even crazier is the developers introducing overly-complex fixes to treat the symptom of this (group balancing, 3333 etc).
And even crazier is players defending these changes. IMO

[Modo44]

PhoenixFire55, on 30 April 2014 - 01:17 PM, said:

If it does, why did we have stomp matches all the time?

Have you read the entire post? Other factors make matches random. Elo is not tracked for enough cases (e.g. group and solo, every variant in a class are combined). The matchmaker builds teams instead of matches, virtually forcing imbalances that make individual skill less relevant than having 12 players does on its own. Random disconnects due to instability skew the results further.

[PhoenixFire55]

Modo44, on 30 April 2014 - 08:34 PM, said:

Have you read the entire post? Other factors make matches random. Elo is not tracked for enough cases (e.g. group and solo, every variant in a class are combined). The matchmaker builds teams instead of matches, virtually forcing imbalances that make individual skill less relevant than having 12 players does on its own. Random disconnects due to instability skew the results further.

You said yourself ... "ONLY Elo tracks ALL skills that help you win".
If its only Elo you don't need any other balancing.
And if its all skills, then it includes skill to group up and be effective in a group, build effective mechs on all variants as well as skill to not disconnect.

[Modo44]

PhoenixFire55, on 01 May 2014 - 12:25 AM, said:

You said yourself ... "ONLY Elo tracks ALL skills that help you win".
If its only Elo you don't need any other balancing.

Now you are being dim on purpose. Elo tracks skill, but it can be skewed when it is thrown into a system with too many random factors. PGI is working on limiting those very factors, to allow Elo to really shine.

[PhoenixFire55]

Modo44, on 01 May 2014 - 12:32 AM, said:

Now you are being dim on purpose. Elo tracks skill, but it can be skewed when it is thrown into a system with too many random factors. PGI is working on limiting those very factors, to allow Elo to really shine.

Elo is meaningless for this game and simply doesn't work, because as you said it yourself again just now, there are too many random factors. So far the only thing it does is ruin the fun in the game and put people either on a team thats far better or far worse than the opponent to establish 50-50 W/L ratio. All restrictions MM has only make matches less diverse and less tactical, force people to do same things over and over and bring best mechs in class (aka meta) to stay adequate to their Elo tier.

[DemonRaziel]

I think what Modo means is that Elo as a method of calculating skill levels should already include all factors relevant for a win, but since there are many random factors that skew the number, in this game, it does not actually work properly.

So I think you actually agree with each other on the basic premise, but Modo still thinks there is a way to exclude the randomness and make Elo work here.

I don't share the optimism until significant changes happen that remove the ability to skew your Elo significantly one way or another.