Jump to content

A Long Range Missile Thread

Weapons Gameplay

100 replies to this topic

#1 crossflip

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 274 posts
  • LocationSouth India

Posted 03 May 2014 - 12:11 PM

Forgive me. I know you're sore from forcing yourself to read all the LRM hate and omgquit threads, but please, hear me out. I think what I have to say is different enough from the other threads to warrant its own. Thank you. This is from my experience as a PUG player against both premade and PUG teams and may or may not be correct or reasonable.

I won't talk about balance, at least not directly. I'll instead tell you what I feel about LRMs as a weapon in general.

LRMs can be hard countered if you have what it takes (Brains, ECM, Cover, in order of utility) but when you don't (guess what, I rarely do) they are annoying as hell to fight against. Even if it's entirely your fault, getting crushed by missile rain just makes you feel bad.

The cockpit shake jars you and disorients you to an extent. Sometimes you panic and make the wrong decisions because of the constant, noisy, irritating damage coming your way, and your friendly neighborhood BB getting all sarcastic up in yo cockpit with her warnings. Maybe it's the feeling of not being able to shoot back, or maybe it's the butt-clenching "Oh **** I need to go hide" rush. Maybe it's because all the other team had to do to cripple and/or is waiting for a few circles to converge and clicking. Whatever the reason, LRMs make me cringe.

Against sniper weapons cover is much easier to use due to there being no indirect fire. When you're pegged by close range weapons you know where, who and what hit you and you can almost always fight back. You have to get caught out to be helplessly gutted by brawlers. They can't just click and damage you. They have to actually fight you, face to face or near enough, and I think we can all agree that dealing high damage as an average brawler overall takes more skill than dealing high damage as an average lurmboat.

Position, aim, and focus are the key requisites for good brawling more so than for lurmboating. As an LRM user, positioning is relatively (repeat, relatively) less important. Aim is not a factor. Focus is infinitely easier because often the fight isn't in your face, allowing you to cherry pick targets and coordinate for locks, tag and narc. This also means that you spend much of the game facing relatively low threat unless your enemies manage to break through your meatshield line and get to you, in which case I'm sorry, but I won't pity you.

There. I've established that I think close combat and direct fire combat require more skill than using LRMs, and that both roles are less one-sided.

I think the problem is in the extreme nature of the weapon's mechanics. This means that LRM boat loadouts are technically all or nothing gambles that rely on the other team's composition to succeed. So let's look at the factors in this gamble, or in other words the counters to LRMs.

It's like this. Either you have a hard counter for it, or your counter is nigh on ineffective.

Cover is worth little unless you've the calm and the awareness to use it, and even then it limits you to a style of gameplay I find cringeworthy wherein you have to hide and peek until you've enough of your team ready to dilute their target focus and enable a push.

While few ECM-capable mechs exist, often either side has at least one of them. ECM is a good counter to LRMs and can be relied upon in premades or in coordinated (i.e. miracle) pubs., but it puts the onus on the ECM bearer to selflessly hoist his umbrella of benevolence above his teammates. When it happens, it's like magic. But it happens rarely. ECM is a very potent thing, and has a complex set of counters and vulnerabilities that bring entirely different and confusing issues that I dare not try to get my humble mind around.

AMS are, I believe, widely accepted as ineffective unless used in large number, and hence are unreliable. Many builds that do use AMS use it only as an afterthought, or as a nifty plug for a 1.5 ton gap.

And the only remaining counter I mentioned, the fabled virtue of "intelligence", is a mysterious and fickle thing that comes and goes like the wind. Clearly unreliable.

So. I believe that the problem with LRMs, the source of their hateful wellspring, is not the fact that LRMs are outright overpowered, but that the way they work itself is aggravating to those on the receiving end and requires relatively (repeat again, relatively) less skill from the gracious givers of missile goodness. There are of course exceptions, but that's all they are. Exceptions.

As a bit of an anticlimax, I won't suggest any way to improve the Mechwarrior LRM experience. I'll leave that to you lot, because frankly I don't know how.

What I will say, though, is how to beat LRMs as a pugger. The obvious idea is to get in close. The fatal flaw is that you die trying because lurms get to you before you get to the lurmcrawlers. Solution? Bum rush. Hiding under LRM pressure puts you at a disadvantage where you're either split up or tripping all over each other scrambling for cover and getting gradually chipped away. Instead, coordinate a push. When your entire team is outside cover, it may sound like a lurmboat's target lock paradise, but it isn't. More targets means less lurms per target unless you're fighting a well coordinated premade. An what's more, while you're out of cover, you'll be barreling across the map straight toward their faces. They will pelt you while you get there, but they sure as hell won't be so cocky once you get within range. Rush them down. Flank them, get them in a pincer attack, backstab them with a lance from behind.

The idea is to not cower in fear of damage from LRMs, because if you do then the game devolves to long range whack-a-mole focus firing, which is something LRMs excel at. They will separate you, they will rain hell on you one by one, and you will cry and rage and be ashamed.
It's dangerous to go alone. Take teammates with you.

TLDR;

-Lurms aren't really OP, they're just annoying as hell.
-^Because of the above, you shouldn't let them get to you. Shrug it off.
-Since the technical counters (ECM, AMS, Cover) are either extreme or ineffective, you can't rely on them.
-Hence you must bum rush
-And bum rush well, with your teammates, together with all your glorious bum-power
-Be brave. Don't let them focus fire you down.
-Damn, I sound like a smart*** selfhelp book.

Edited by Egomane, 04 May 2014 - 01:56 AM.


#2 WerewolfX

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 500 posts

Posted 03 May 2014 - 03:38 PM

[redacted]

To op well thought out post. +1

Edited by Egomane, 04 May 2014 - 01:56 AM.
responding to removed content


#3 Rhaythe

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Philanthropist
  • Philanthropist
  • 4,203 posts

Posted 03 May 2014 - 04:15 PM

View Postcrossflip, on 03 May 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

-^Because of the above, you shouldn't let them get to you. Shrug it off.

This. And this should apply to being killed by anything in this game. Because, y'know, it's a game.

#4 Wolfways

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Mercenary
  • 6,499 posts
  • LocationIn a shutdown overheated mech near you.

Posted 03 May 2014 - 05:34 PM

View Postcrossflip, on 03 May 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

*snip*

I agree with you. LRM's are not OP.
Other than that i think your whole post is wrong, for reasons i've explained a hundred times in other threads.

#5 Daekar

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,214 posts

Posted 03 May 2014 - 05:47 PM

This is one of my biggest pet peeves about LRMs - they're not fun. They're not fun to use, be killed by, or win with. The problem is pretty unsolvable without a considerable change in mechanics, so it will just remain unfun.

#6 Flaming oblivion

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The 1 Percent
  • 1,293 posts

Posted 03 May 2014 - 05:57 PM

View PostDaekar, on 03 May 2014 - 05:47 PM, said:

This is one of my biggest pet peeves about LRMs - they're not fun. They're not fun to use, be killed by, or win with. The problem is pretty unsolvable without a considerable change in mechanics, so it will just remain unfun.


Firstly not fun for you , Secondly its a well thought out post OP but I've replied to so many of these explaining my view so I'm going to keep this short. Theres more of a argument to buff lrms then nerf them, They're easily one of the weakest most situational unreliable weapons in game if not the uncontested weakest. Its really as simple as that.

#7 Daekar

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,214 posts

Posted 03 May 2014 - 08:02 PM

View PostFlaming oblivion, on 03 May 2014 - 05:57 PM, said:


Firstly not fun for you , Secondly its a well thought out post OP but I've replied to so many of these explaining my view so I'm going to keep this short. Theres more of a argument to buff lrms then nerf them, They're easily one of the weakest most situational unreliable weapons in game if not the uncontested weakest. Its really as simple as that.

Oh I agree, fun is subjective. I have good reason to believe that I'm not alone in my opinion, but the point still stands.

#8 mogs01gt

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Shredder
  • 4,292 posts
  • LocationOhio

Posted 03 May 2014 - 08:13 PM

I think a bit on the other side. With a competent team, LRMs have a huge advantage. However ECM exists in its current state.

#9 Impyrium

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The God
  • The God
  • 2,104 posts
  • LocationSouth Australia

Posted 03 May 2014 - 09:01 PM

I don't think I've been killed by missile fire since their speed was buffed and then nerfed again. It's more of a suppression weapon at the moment; there's no better incentive to jump behind cover than that annoying blinking red icon. The only time I've had significant problems with them is when I'm versing a team filled with support/LRM role 'Mechs, and even then it's because I've made a mistake and walked into an area where there isn't as much cover as I thought there was.

I've got mixed feelings about this. Missile boats aren't as viable as they once were, but at the same time specilaized missile 'Mechs do have their place. One of the reasons LRMers don't get much success is that many don't seem to know how to use them. I've watched countless boats attempt to stick with the front line brawlers and fire from there. They simply don't play by their role anymore, and they expect to score countless kills alongside brawlers and snipers. I'm generalizing a lot there; sorry.

On the other hand, they're again too easy to avoid. If you're getting hit by them, it's either because your opponent had a legitimate shot and you ate it, or because you weren't' sticking to cover well enough. Combined with screen shake they can be effective, BUT NOT as a 'lone wolf', so to speak. They're a team weapon, they're for support. Use the correctly and you'll win matches, fight against them the wrong way and you'll loose.

Just don't complain about either. :P

#10 crossflip

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 274 posts
  • LocationSouth India

Posted 03 May 2014 - 09:18 PM

This isn't a complaint thread, just trying to shed some light on why LRMs are so annoying. And I seriously haven't seen any posts that state why they aren't, so I'll need to have a closer look it seems.

#11 Flaming oblivion

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The 1 Percent
  • 1,293 posts

Posted 03 May 2014 - 09:47 PM

Probably annoying because you run out into the open thinking your safe , suddenly before you know it "warning incoming missiles" , you cant see who's shooting you , then a light pops out of no where probably followed by a brawler and your trying to get away but your cockpits shaking all over the place , your already dead at this point, Doesn't make lrms op , Makes the person assuming that because they cant see anyone running out into the open alone is wise not smart .

#12 crossflip

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 274 posts
  • LocationSouth India

Posted 03 May 2014 - 10:05 PM

View PostFlaming oblivion, on 03 May 2014 - 09:47 PM, said:

Probably annoying because you run out into the open thinking your safe , suddenly before you know it "warning incoming missiles" , you cant see who's shooting you , then a light pops out of no where probably followed by a brawler and your trying to get away but your cockpits shaking all over the place , your already dead at this point, Doesn't make lrms op , Makes the person assuming that because they cant see anyone running out into the open alone is wise not smart .


I feel like you've read only the title and nothing else here.

#13 Flaming oblivion

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The 1 Percent
  • 1,293 posts

Posted 03 May 2014 - 10:20 PM

Oh I skimmed it as I said earlier in the thread this is the umpteenth thread of this nature I've responded to .

View Postcrossflip, on 03 May 2014 - 09:18 PM, said:

This isn't a complaint thread, just trying to shed some light on why LRMs are so annoying. And I seriously haven't seen any posts that state why they aren't, so I'll need to have a closer look it seems.

That was what I was responding to its the only possible reason I could see for lrms being irritating , Because frankly they suck unless you make mistakes/ bad choices

#14 Amsro

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Overlord
  • Overlord
  • 3,363 posts
  • LocationCharging my Gauss Rifle

Posted 03 May 2014 - 10:22 PM

Ahh... LRM's those mechs are food.

#15 GreyGriffin

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 792 posts
  • LocationQuatre Belle (originally from Lum)

Posted 03 May 2014 - 11:22 PM

The funny story here is that LRMs wouldn't be considered nearly as OP as they are if the massive frontload jumpsnipe meta wasn't a thing. The moment you duck out of cover to close the distance to the LRMs, you're cored by AC/PPC spam.

#16 ChewBaka

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Caladbolg
  • Caladbolg
  • 264 posts

Posted 03 May 2014 - 11:36 PM

View Postcrossflip, on 03 May 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

TLDR;

-Lurms aren't really OP, they're just annoying as hell.
-^Because of the above, you shouldn't let them get to you. Shrug it off.
-Since the technical counters (ECM, AMS, Cover) are either extreme or ineffective, you can't rely on them.
-Hence you must bum rush
-And bum rush well, with your teammates, together with all your glorious bum-power
-Be brave. Don't let them focus fire you down.
-Damn, I sound like a smart*** selfhelp book.

- LRM boats ARE overpowered. A hail of 4-LRM15s can destroy before you can even blink. All things considered, I was happier with the PPC-Gauss meta. At least I was killed by someone who had to aim and I could return fire myself.
- Bum rush only works when your team are mobile enough. Unfortunately, the current meta hardly resembles canon where mediums are the most common. Everyone is in a slow heavy/assault these days with lots of big guns.
- Watching an Atlas trying to bum rush LRM boats is a sad sad sight indeed.
- Charging as a group requires that everyone move at the speed of the slower mechs. Being slow is a bad idea vs LRMs.
- Of course, the lights and mediums can attempt to charge ahead first...except they will run into a wall of heavier brawlers who can easily fend them away from the LRM boats. Meanwhile, their own team's heavies and assaults are being pounded by LRMs.
Fact is the the LRM buff has just made is absolutely necessary for your group to have LRMs of their own in order to counter. If you don't, than your team needs to have the mobility (and the courage) to charge them. If neither condition is met, you lose. Simple as that. Therefore, there is no bum rush counter like you said. That's a fairy tale, since hardly anyone drives mediums these days.

#17 Flaming oblivion

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The 1 Percent
  • 1,293 posts

Posted 03 May 2014 - 11:41 PM

View PostCharlie Pohr, on 03 May 2014 - 11:36 PM, said:

- LRM boats ARE overpowered. A hail of 4-LRM15s can destroy before you can even blink. All things considered, I was happier with the PPC-Gauss meta. At least I was killed by someone who had to aim and I could return fire myself.
- Bum rush only works when your team are mobile enough. Unfortunately, the current meta hardly resembles canon where mediums are the most common. Everyone is in a slow heavy/assault these days with lots of big guns.
- Watching an Atlas trying to bum rush LRM boats is a sad sad sight indeed.
- Charging as a group requires that everyone move at the speed of the slower mechs. Being slow is a bad idea vs LRMs.
- Of course, the lights and mediums can attempt to charge ahead first...except they will run into a wall of heavier brawlers who can easily fend them away from the LRM boats. Meanwhile, their own team's heavies and assaults are being pounded by LRMs.
Fact is the the LRM buff has just made is absolutely necessary for your group to have LRMs of their own in order to counter. If you don't, than your team needs to have the mobility (and the courage) to charge them. If neither condition is met, you lose. Simple as that. Therefore, there is no bum rush counter like you said. That's a fairy tale, since hardly anyone drives mediums these days.

Posted Image

#18 LoneMaverick

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Survivor
  • Survivor
  • 124 posts

Posted 03 May 2014 - 11:45 PM

View Postcrossflip, on 03 May 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

Even if it's entirely your fault, getting crushed by missile rain just makes you feel bad.

TL;DR most of it but :

Watching your ST/CT go from full to Orange/Dark Orange in a Medium/Heavy because some Victor just floated across the sky 500m away feels a bit worse, simply because there's even less of a chance to do anything about it.

Anyone running LRM support pretty much ends up having to devote most/all of his tonnage and crit slots toward that effect, with hopefully enough room left over for some close range backup. LRMs are finally in a decent place now, other than ECM still being the most efficient 1.5tons in the game, and seeing as how every mech(minus the X5) can easily reduce the effect LRMs have on your team.

Whenever I'm in a match and see some whiner crying because he got LRMs dumped on him, I just cant help myself but berate the shit out of him if he isn't running an AMS. If you could run something that would negate 15-20% of Ballistic or Energy damage for 1.5 tons, wouldn't you? For the most part Missile systems are still a joke(hopefully SRM fixes will finally make them viable) and yet have the most hard/soft counters.

Running ECM and being a mediocre pilot but a good team player while pugging will up your W/L substantially.

Edited by LoneMaverick, 03 May 2014 - 11:46 PM.


#19 D34K

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The 1 Percent
  • The 1 Percent
  • 304 posts
  • LocationBrighton, UK

Posted 03 May 2014 - 11:53 PM

Scrubs, space poors, and pubbies supporting lurms. Standard. No, this thread did not justify its own existence.

Lurms remain disproportionately rewarding for the skill level required to use them.

#20 Flaming oblivion

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The 1 Percent
  • 1,293 posts

Posted 03 May 2014 - 11:55 PM

View PostD34K, on 03 May 2014 - 11:53 PM, said:

Scrubs, space poors, and pubbies supporting lurms. Standard. No, this thread did not justify its own existence.

Lurms remain disproportionately rewarding for the skill level required to use them.


Yup lrms take no skill to use if you don't mind doing 0-150 damage every battle , They take the most skill out of all weapons to use if you want to beat 250 damage without getting obliterated .





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users