163 replies to this topic

[Jun Watarase]

Just LL. I mean on a per weapon basis. 3 LLs, with alternating weapon groups seems to be a better choice than 2 LPL currently...its a lot more damage certaintly, plus you still have 2 LL left when you lose a side torso.

Edited by Jun Watarase, 06 May 2014 - 06:25 PM.

[Lyoto Machida]

Fringe, on 06 May 2014 - 02:37 AM, said:

You quite clearly couldn't hit the broadside of a Jager, although I'm impressed that you stay connected long enough to try and fail. Thanks for posting a video proving it. No one believes you actually play.


When on wireless my ping is worse and my lasers still work the same. Perhaps 'Jun Lazers' work differently...


No, that wasn't how 3025 worked AT ALL. I played 3025 with you. You were junning even back then - or simply refused to drop at all. Kurita 'Kourage' at its finest!


This is not a discussion; this is you junjacking the forums again. How did you convince [REDACTED]? Big mistake. BIG MISTAKE. [REDACTED]


Yes, yes he does. With great frequency unfortunately. Never his fault, as this video proves.



Yes, yes you do. With great frequency unfortunately. Never your fault, as this video proves.

Stop junning and start learning to play. Your laser problems will clear right up.

Wow...epic first post!

[LTGear]

Sometimes a moving target doesnt guarantee accuracy and to attain a maximim damage of your LL, your crosshair has to stick to the target for the duaration of the beam but they are right some of your shots sways off so how could you claim to have given that damage amount and with regards to youtube, you have the option to upload and view @1080p if youtube lowers your viewing resolution that means you need a higher internet speed.

[Jun Watarase]

Where is the option to upload in 1080p?

[Durandal]

Jun Watarase, on 06 May 2014 - 02:41 PM, said:

And duh, the damage is going to spread, its not an instant projectile. The jenner video earlier? He stood still, fired on largely stationery targets and nobody was shooting him, so he was able to do pinpoint. I didnt have that luxury. Any elevation change is going to make the damage spread (and i was reversing downslope). Any turns will make the damagae spread due to weapons in two different locations, and my cockpit was being obscured by weapons fire because its located in a very large and easy to hit location. Its pretty much unavoidable. If the jager was just standing still, that would have been a different story entirely. And still nobody addresses my point that the damage didnt spread that much because most of the Jager was yellow, so the damage was concentrated to the LT/CT anyway.

You concentrated more damage to the LT (hence its destruction), but I already broke down that the damage otherwise was hardly ever concentrated. The reason nothing else was stripped of armor will hinge on that, regardless of whatever else may be thought to have happened. You've already mentioned lowering your sensitivity/DPI, which helps with lasers, but you need to spend time in the training grounds practicing until you can keep finer control over your target lock when you turn or change elevation.

Pottertown, on 06 May 2014 - 05:15 PM, said:

Nobody is debating your points, because they are moot.

You've received the EXACT same comments from a number of people on here, and to be honest, they've been incredibly patient with you. But you are not understanding.

Jun Watarase, on 06 May 2014 - 05:35 PM, said:

In case people havent figured out yet, this thread is not about how good or bad my build is. I'm not here to ask for build advice. Stick to the thread topic.

No offense, but we mythbusted the thread topic within 2 pages, after which you continually went into argument mode. Uploading a video in higher quality won't change anything, it will only show with much starker contrast where the issues were that kept you from dropping that mech. Instead of wasting your time drawing out the argument even further, log into the training grounds with your Atlas again and again, find rough terrain, and move around on it while firing until you can keep your lasers more centered, even when suddenly having to turn on the fly. Then, and only then will you be ready to fight that same JM in the field.

Until then...

[Jun Watarase]

Quote

No offense, but we mythbusted the thread topic within 2 pages

I'm not seeing how "you missed! i don't care what proof you have, YOU MISSED!!!" is myth busting really. If significant damage had been splashed to the other locations, simple maths indicates they would have gone beyond yellow. But theres no way to tell just how many points went where because we dont have access to the logs, so this is going nowhere.

Quote

after which you continually went into argument mode.

No, i disagreed with the claims and provided proof and counter arguments to back up my point. After which people complained that i was arguing just because i didnt say "yes, i will do everything you say!".

Would love to see a video of someone having perfect accuracy regardless of movement, target movement or being unable to see the target at all. But im pretty sure thats not possible.

[Durandal]

durandal, on 05 May 2014 - 06:05 PM, said:

Shot 1: Arms hit right and center torso while CT laser hits left torso. Paperdoll shows flashes on all three torsos and left leg for armor damage.
Shot 2: Same targets, arm lasers hit RT/CT, CT laser hits LT and LLeg. Paperdoll shows a flash on left arm armor as well that may be damage from another player.
Shot 3: All over. Hits both arms and all 3 torsos, paperdoll shows flashes in all areas.
Shot 4: Harder to see thanks to his guns firing, but it clearly starts on CT and jerks over to LT. Paperdoll shows flashes on all three torsos and left leg (probably from him running into you).
Shot 5: Most accurate shot, stays almost 100% centered on LT, destroys it along with left arm.
Shot 6: All over again, starts at RT, moves to CT and LT, then back towards RT.
Shot 7: Arms stay closer to CT, but CT laser hits the RT and RArm instead.
Shot 8: CT laser aimed way above his head, hits empty air. Arm lasers hit mainly CT/LT area.
Shot 9: Arm/CT lasers start on CT for a split second, then jerk past RT/RArm and end up in empty air, hitting the ground.

I'll just leave you with that a final time then, as the observed showing of you joyspraying all over the front of his mech for all but one shot, and depart this thread. Meanwhile, you can continue to be obtuse while we kill you off in games. Just keep on harping on about how nothing could possibly be wrong with you, and it must be some bug in the game. Never mind the large, large number of people telling you the same thing. Game mechanic.

/thread

[Greyboots]

Jun Watarase, on 05 May 2014 - 04:44 PM, said:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrXB_BaMZcw&feature=youtu.be

I think the video and description explains it all really. 27 large lasers on a jagermech that is in pointblank range and he doesnt die....where is all that damage dissapearing to?

Something is very wrong here. I keep seeing people tank ridiculous amounts of damage in close range even if they arent bothering to dodge. I even had a HBK-4G go toe to toe with my near mint Atlas and he almost won....and he was pretty much hugging my mech so it was impossible to miss. Alpha after alpha was like throwing spitballs.

Lasers deal damage in an "over time" way. The damage is divided up over the beam length and aapplies as "mocro-hits". 27 beams connect but not all of them deal their full damage.

1) When lasers pass over a join in location hitboxes, a portion of damage is lost (the "microhit" that hits 2 boxes OR a bov and the ground as well). Waving lasers around, crossing multiple hitboxes, can result in a quite large DPS loss. I am 90% sure this DPS loss is greater than devs state it should be.

2) When you hit a component (location) that is destroyed, any damage delt to that destroyed component is HALVED before passing on towards the center torso. After the Left Torso is destroyed, any hits on the left torso or arm wreckage are therefore only doing HALF DAMAGE.

3) You are not always hitting. If you watch the video and look at the ground behind the Jager you can see the "tracer" explosions where you are missing.

You MUST pay attention to your HUD. The paper doll tells you what locations are destroyed and hitting those locations will reduce your damage severely. Raking lasers at opponents is an automatic damage loss and just because it's a beam doesn't mean you don't need to AIM and keep it as consistently on one hit location for as long as possible.

This is PRECISELY why it's so hard to kill spiders by waving lasers at them They are so small that you are taking a MASSIVE damage reduction from hitting so many hit boxes. Aim for the hips and KEEP THE LASERS THERE.

Quote

Edit : Does anyone know what the max dimensions of a video are on youtube? Everytime i upload a nice and large video, youtube resizes them to this small size and its hard to tell whats going on.

Max dimensions (from memory) is 1080p (18920x1080).

YouTube uses increments of standard ratings. 240p, 340p, etc up to 1080p. Using a non-standard format WILL result in your video being downsized to the next lowest as the max resolution.

YouTube ALSO processes the video into each "step" before that and then uses a standard resolution of 360p or 480p on most computers. You have to select the higher resolution if you wish to view it in that resolution (your video is available in up to 720p).

Jun Watarase, on 06 May 2014 - 06:39 PM, said:

Where is the option to upload in 1080p?

There's no option. If you upload a 1080p video then YT will process it into a 1080p version and the VIEWER has to select a higher resolution. Personally I don't bother. 720p is fine for most applications under commercial viewing on an absolutely massive screen. Yup, gets a little blurry on a good sized 1080p monitor but you can still tell everything that's going on.

Edited by Greyboots, 06 May 2014 - 09:01 PM.

[Edustaja]

Greyboots, on 06 May 2014 - 08:54 PM, said:

Max dimensions (from memory) is 1080p (18920x1080).

Actually it's: "YouTube has since lowered the maximum resolution to 3840x2160 pixels"

720p is fine, 1080p pretty much standard. Anything above that is gravy.

Edited by Edustaja, 06 May 2014 - 09:50 PM.

[KharnZor]

This thread is chasing the cake.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Jun Watarase, on 05 May 2014 - 04:53 PM, said:

I didnt miss at all (on my screen at least), i replayed the video multiple times and confirmed it. I only missed the second half of my last alpha because of the shut down, but i still got about half a second of burn time on his exposed CT before i shut down.

Check the maths in the description. 240+ damage is almost enough to take out all 3 torso sections, and his RT was still in yellow or orange armor at the end.

you hit the LT most the time when hitting the ct you did little left to right curves spreading across all the torso, then after you killed his LT you still hit it where damage is halved by deadsection damage transfer rates.

inother words your wobbly arms and aim meant you could only concentrat a third of the firtepower on the ct and sometimes you didn't even get the whole beam duration on the mech.

watch the dolly your aim was all over it not focused maybey you need armlock.



i'd say you scored 160 damage spread over 3 parts including dead sections out of the theoretical 250 so. the jager was near full health. that's over 700 damage to knock it all out. the ct 168 potentially. most likely 150 armour there to chew through on that build to knock the ct out. really you were lucky to get the ct in the yellow.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 07 May 2014 - 02:30 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Jun Watarase, on 06 May 2014 - 02:41 PM, said:

Reading through the earlier posts again, its rather dissapointing that instead of raising counter arguments to my points, people have started resorting to the same "learn2play noob!" strawman arguments. But i guess i shouldnt be surprised.

Also to the people claiming i missed "a lot", these screencaps prove you dead wrong :



Hope i didnt miss any or added a duplicate. I only missed once because the torso laser was too high to hit the jager. Now that has been debunked, please stop all claims that i was missing the majority of my shots, thanks.

And duh, the damage is going to spread, its not an instant projectile. The jenner video earlier? He stood still, fired on largely stationery targets and nobody was shooting him, so he was able to do pinpoint. I didnt have that luxury. Any elevation change is going to make the damage spread (and i was reversing downslope). Any turns will make the damagae spread due to weapons in two different locations, and my cockpit was being obscured by weapons fire because its located in a very large and easy to hit location. Its pretty much unavoidable. If the jager was just standing still, that would have been a different story entirely. And still nobody addresses my point that the damage didnt spread that much because most of the Jager was yellow, so the damage was concentrated to the LT/CT anyway.

And i was expecting the enemies to be too occupied with my team to engage me, but they chose to prioritize me for some reason. Either way, my team won because they were too focused on me instead of the 6+ mechs behind them, so it didnt matter.

A 325 engine isnt much faster and takes up 5.5 more tons, which is really significant. I started using LRMs on the Atlas because it got really frustrating not being able to engage enemies at long range/out of LOS and being far too slow to catch up. Works decent when i get to fire them. CT LL is "ok"...not much else i can do with my tonnage anyway, and there are still times when the extra range comes in handy.

I moved the CT LL to another weapons group and have been mainly using the arm mounted lasers. I think ti runs a bit cooler, but obviously there are times when the damage spreads out more because of chain firing. But it does give me more flexibility. Lowering mouse sensitivity also helped a lot, thanks for the suggestion.

When does the ghost heat penalty "count" anyway? From the point when you press the trigger or when the beam duration is finished?

Tried arm lock but...the reticle obviously moves a lot slower and there are a lot of times when you need to move the arm crosshair, but not the torso one. Would be better if the arm lock worked so that once you reached the maximum twist/pitch angle, the arm lock would be turned off temporarily so you could shoot with arm mounted weapons.

Ummm Lasers hit where you are pointing them. Stop action Pictures will only show where you are hitting at that second in time. The tale of the tape is how many panels are glowing AFTER the beam quits. and you spread your damage well. I'm not insulting your play, personally I feel your pain, but lasers are not front loading damage, and you slashed quite a bit of armor.

[Clit Beastwood]

This thread is like watching jerry springer.

[mogs01gt]

Jun Watarase, on 06 May 2014 - 02:41 PM, said:

Reading through the earlier posts again, its rather dissapointing that instead of raising counter arguments to my points, people have started resorting to the same "learn2play noob!" strawman arguments. But i guess i shouldnt be surprised.

So you are finally realizing what this community it about...Took my about a month of posting to realize this...

[Eglar]

Jun Watarase, on 06 May 2014 - 07:57 PM, said:

I'm not seeing how "you missed! i don't care what proof you have, YOU MISSED!!!" is myth busting really. If significant damage had been splashed to the other locations, simple maths indicates they would have gone beyond yellow. But theres no way to tell just how many points went where because we dont have access to the logs, so this is going nowhere.

The aim was not horrible. It spread some of the damage it's certainly not the smoothest aim I've seen. But the Jagermech surviving roughly 200 damage applied to the right spots is certainly not some fancy hsr-magick.

[Solahma]

My guess is that he was part of a pre-made and his teamwork kept him alive.

Seriously though, watching your video again for the third time. Your LLas hit, but most of the time they are not connecting completely, especially your torso LLas. You are scraping with every shot and barely connecting with a couple. Just because you "hit" with all three LLas doesn't mean you did your full potential damage. I see you hitting legs, arms, torsos, and anything that could possibly get hit on that jager. Considering he is running near 400 points of armor (not including internal) I find it VERY likely that a jager can absorb that amount of LLas. You didn't even utilize arm-lock which would have helped you tremendously for convergence of that torso laser.

Best advice I can give you: Lock those arms for beam weapons and work toward a STEADY and SMOOTH aim to focus on one component instead of the entire mech. Here is a practical work-out I recommend for building the strength required to become a Beam Master


^Rock Paper Scissors for all those minds in the gutter!

Edited by Solahma, 07 May 2014 - 11:44 AM.

[Ultimax]

Jun Watarase, on 06 May 2014 - 06:22 PM, said:

Just LL. I mean on a per weapon basis. 3 LLs, with alternating weapon groups seems to be a better choice than 2 LPL currently...its a lot more damage certaintly, plus you still have 2 LL left when you lose a side torso.

The discount in tonnage comes with a price.

That price is the duration of the beam.

1s vs. 0.6s for LL vs. LPL


So that 27 points of damage is likely to be reduced or spread unless your targets are sitting still.


LPLs still have a chance to spread, but 40% shorter duration means you have a better chance to get more of that damage where you want it - especially on an Atlas that can sometimes have a shorter window to apply damage due to poor torso twist speeds, lower maneuverability, etc.



Let's compare your options for 15 tons.

Option 1
3x LLAS
15 tons
27 damage
24 heat (includes Ghost heat penalty)


Option 2
2x LPL + 1x MLAS
15 tons
25 damage
20 heat


If you can find a spare ton, you can do


Option 3
2x LPL + 1x MPL
16 Tons
26 Damage
21 Heat

The main reason to go Option 3 is that the LPLs and MPLs would be on the same recycle times, as opposed to the MLAS which would be on a different cycle (not necessarily bad, but just worth mentioning).

Edited by Ultimatum X, 07 May 2014 - 08:30 AM.

[Pottertown]

Jun Watarase, on 06 May 2014 - 07:57 PM, said:

I'm not seeing how "you missed! i don't care what proof you have, YOU MISSED!!!" is myth busting really. If significant damage had been splashed to the other locations, simple maths indicates they would have gone beyond yellow. But theres no way to tell just how many points went where because we dont have access to the logs, so this is going nowhere.



No, i disagreed with the claims and provided proof and counter arguments to back up my point. After which people complained that i was arguing just because i didnt say "yes, i will do everything you say!".

Would love to see a video of someone having perfect accuracy regardless of movement, target movement or being unable to see the target at all. But im pretty sure thats not possible.

Listen up [Redacted]. YOU RECORDED THE VIDEO. What you *think* you saw, is impossible, because we are seeing what your eyes saw. You cannot have seen things differently.

[Redacted] I feel sorry for you, and either way you need to practice more.

Edited by Catalina Steiner, 08 May 2014 - 03:22 AM.

[RAM]

Fringe, on 06 May 2014 - 02:37 AM, said:

How did you convince [REDACTED]?
Stop junning and start learning to play. Your laser problems will clear right up.

HOW is what we all want to know.

NeonKnight, on 06 May 2014 - 04:13 PM, said:

Its probably all the EVILZ PR3MADE HATRZ causing half your shots to miss. I watched your video and fully half of your Torso mounted lasers were streaming off into the terrain, and nowhere near the enemy mech.

He was aiming for the terrain he hit. No premades were junned in making this video.

Lyoto Machida, on 06 May 2014 - 06:24 PM, said:

Wow...epic first post!

Agreed - perfect pic!

Pottertown, on 07 May 2014 - 08:47 PM, said:

Listen up [Redacted]. YOU RECORDED THE VIDEO. What you *think* you saw, is impossible, because we are seeing what your eyes saw. You cannot have seen things differently.

[Redacted] I feel sorry for you, and either way you need to practice more.

Actually he is both, otherwise completely agree.


RAM
ELH

Edited by Catalina Steiner, 08 May 2014 - 03:23 AM.

[Lyoto Machida]

Pottertown, on 07 May 2014 - 08:47 PM, said:

Listen up [Redacted]. YOU RECORDED THE VIDEO. What you *think* you saw, is impossible, because we are seeing what your eyes saw. You cannot have seen things differently.

[Redacted] I feel sorry for you, and either way you need to practice more.

Wow...a one post Legendary Founder and a two post Overlord posting in the same thread. Posting in a legendary thread...

I'm not sure how he's not seeing what everyone else is seeing but it's interesting insight into how some other people think.

Edited by Catalina Steiner, 08 May 2014 - 03:24 AM.