69 replies to this topic

[HumpingBunny]

This question may have been answered at some point, however I have been unable to read the forums for some time. As the title asks, will the clan ultra a/c 20 and clan lbx 20 arrive with clan mechs?

[FupDup]

Why wouldn't they? They're in the timeline and featured on numerous configurations available in the timeline.

[Waelsleaht]

Adder: light, 35 tons. Endorse steal/FF armor. XL engin dbl heat sinks.
Prime - 1flamer 2 ERPPC
A - 2 LRM 20 2 SPL
D - 1 ERLL 1 UAC5 2 streak2
Dire Wolf: assault, 100 tons. Standard IS/ standard armor. XL engin (assuming dbl heat sinks. )
Prime - 4 ERLL 4 MPL 2 UAC5 1 LRM 10
A - 1 Gauss 3 LPL 2 Streak6
B - 4 UAC2 2 ERPPC 1 LBX10 2 MPL 2 ERSL
Kit Fox: light 30 tons. Endorse steal/FF armor. XL engin (assuming dbl heat sinks)
Prime - 1 LBX5 1 ERLL 1 SPL 1 Streak 4
D - 2 LRM15 1 LRM5 1narc
S - 1 LPL 1 MPL 1 SPL 1 streak2 2 MG
Nova: medium, 50 tons. Standard IS/ standard armor. XL engin (assuming dbl heat sinks.
Prime - 12 ERML
B - 1 UAC5 1 LPL 1 ERSML 2 MG
S - 6 MPL 4 MG
Storm crow: medium, 55 tons. Endorse steal/FF armor. XL engin dbl heat sinks.
Prime - 3 ERML 2 ERLL
C - 1 LBX10 1 LPL 2 MPL
D - 2 LRM20 2 SRM2 1 narc
Summoner: heavy, 70 tons. Standard IS/FF armor. XL engin dbl heat sinks.
Prime - 1 LBX10 1 LRM15 1 ERPPC
B - 2 LRM20 2 SRm4 narc
D - 2 ERLL 2 ERML 2 MG
Timber Wolf: heavy, 75 tons. Endorse steal/FF armor. XL engin dbl heat sink.
Prime - 2 ERLL 2 ERML 1 MPL 2 MG 2 LRM20
C - 2 ERLL 1 UAC5 2 LRM15 1 ERML
S - 1 LPL 2 MPL 4 SRM6 2 MG
War hawk: assault, 85 tons. Standard IS/FF armor. XL engin dbl heat sink.
Prime - 4 ERPPC 1 LRM10
A - 2 ERLL 1 LBX10 1 LRM15 1 streak6
B - 1 gauss 3 ERML 1 ERSML 2 SRM6 narc

Notable things: timber wolf S has JJ, nova S has BAP.
None of these variants have ECM that I can see on Sarna.

[1453 R]

How is any of that remotely related to the original question?

[Waelsleaht]

So LBX5 from kit fox and UAC2 from dire wolf. Otherwise if they bring it in its on them and not part of the variants introduced.

Edited by Waelsleaht, 26 May 2014 - 09:10 AM.

[Corbenik]

1453 R, on 26 May 2014 - 09:03 AM, said:

How is any of that remotely related to the original question?

Maybe because they cant read the forums and view the available Variants with weapon loadouts being released

[darkkterror]

1453 R, on 26 May 2014 - 09:03 AM, said:

How is any of that remotely related to the original question?

My guess is that he was trying to point out that since none of the variants being released have LB-X 20s or UAC 20s that there's at least a chance we won't get them. I'd like to think that PGI isn't going to be silly and will release the full line of those weapon types for the sake of customization.

[HumpingBunny]

FupDup, on 26 May 2014 - 08:55 AM, said:

Why wouldn't they? They're in the timeline and featured on numerous configurations available in the timeline.

A friend of mine directed me to Russ's post on clan 'Mech variants. After investigating the list of clan 'Mech variants, I did not see a single UAC-20 nor a single LBX-20 among the upcoming clan chassis (perhaps I missed one or two?). Also, I have noticed PGI devoting a certain effort to avoiding the notorious OP weapons and 'Mechs - so my fear was that they deemed clan 20-class A/C's over powered. My only intention is to get more of an idea of what we will see, come June 17th.

Edited by HumpingBunny, 26 May 2014 - 09:16 AM.

[FupDup]

HumpingBunny, on 26 May 2014 - 09:13 AM, said:

A friend of mine directed me to Russ's post on clan 'Mech variants. After investigating the list of clan 'Mech variants, I did not see a single UAC-20 nor a single LBX-20 among the upcoming clans chassis (perhaps I missed one or two?). Also, I have noticed PGI devoting a certain effort to avoiding the notorious OP weapons and 'Mechs - so my fear was that they deemed clan 20-class A/C's over powered. My only intention is to get more of an idea of what we will see, come June 17th.

If that were the case, we probably also wouldn't be seeing any Clan variants that carry the CERPPC, but we do. That weapon is basically a 6-ton Gauss Rifle with infinite ammo that doesn't go boom. I think they would also avoid the CERLL, because Paul has specifically said that he thinks its Tabletop stats were very overpowered (in a NGNG podcast).

In that same podcast, he did also mention that the CUAC/20 would fire a burst of 4 shells, each doing 5 damage (or was it 5 shells for 4 damage each? My memory is bad). I think the fact that he said how big the burst would be, seems to point towards us being able to use the weapon.

[Mcgral18]

HumpingBunny, on 26 May 2014 - 09:13 AM, said:

A friend of mine directed me to Russ's post on clan 'Mech variants. After investigating the list of clan 'Mech variants, I did not see a single UAC-20 nor a single LBX-20 among the upcoming clan chassis (perhaps I missed one or two?). Also, I have noticed PGI devoting a certain effort to avoiding the notorious OP weapons and 'Mechs - so my fear was that they deemed clan 20-class A/C's over powered. My only intention is to get more of an idea of what we will see, come June 17th.

They stated in one of the podcasts that the UAC20 will fire in a burst of 5 rounds, at 4 damage each. So, it's a good bet that we'll be getting it.

[HumpingBunny]

FupDup, on 26 May 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:

If that were the case, we probably also wouldn't be seeing any Clan variants that carry the CERPPC, but we do. That weapon is basically a 6-ton Gauss Rifle with infinite ammo that doesn't go boom. I think they would also avoid the CERLL, because Paul has specifically said that he thinks its Tabletop stats were very overpowered (in a NGNG podcast).

In that same podcast, he did also mention that the CUAC/20 would fire a burst of 4 shells, each doing 5 damage (or was it 5 shells for 4 damage each? My memory is bad). I think the fact that he said how big the burst would be, seems to point towards us being able to use the weapon.

Ah, sounds good! I definitely did not catch that podcast. Thank you for the info though. I hope to see you in future drops

*salutes*

[101011]

The likelihood of PGI skipping larger AC's is about as likely as them removing ERPPC's or adding in Ghost Heat...oh, wait a second.

[Strum Wealh]

FupDup, on 26 May 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:

If that were the case, we probably also wouldn't be seeing any Clan variants that carry the CERPPC, but we do. That weapon is basically a 6-ton Gauss Rifle with infinite ammo that doesn't go boom. I think they would also avoid the CERLL, because Paul has specifically said that he thinks its Tabletop stats were very overpowered (in a NGNG podcast).

In that same podcast, he did also mention that the CUAC/20 would fire a burst of 4 shells, each doing 5 damage (or was it 5 shells for 4 damage each? My memory is bad). I think the fact that he said how big the burst would be, seems to point towards us being able to use the weapon.

Strum Wealh, on 04 May 2014 - 01:39 PM, said:

Listen to NGNG's "'Mechs, Devs, & Beer #15" with Paul Inouye (the MWO Lead Designer); he explains that their current (as of the time of the recording) plan is to have Clan LB-X ACs be able to switch between slug (as in the equivalent of shotgun slug) rounds and cluster rounds (which already serve as the equivalent of shotshells), while the Clan UACs would be implemented as burst-fire weapons (such that a clan UAC/20, in stead of firing one large shell for 20 damage per salvo, might fire (for example) five shells that deal 4 damage apiece for a total of 20 damage per salvo).

Note that when Paul discusses the Clan LB-X ACs (from 40:40 to 42:48), he does not specifically indicate whether the Clan LB-X slug mode would also use a burst-fire implementation (like what's described for the Clan UACs) or if slugs would fire as single shells (like the IS Standard ACs), though some of his reasoning for denying ammo-switching for the IS LB 10-X (specifically, with regard to rendering the Standard AC/10 obsolete) implies the latter.

Additionally, note that Paul's discussion of Clan UACs (from 35:50 to 37:36) uses the 5x4 (burst of 5 shells @ 4 damage per shell) statement solely as an example ("...the [Ultra] Autocannon/20, for example - just throwing out some ideas here - is that it'll shoot a 5-round burst with every round doing 4 damage..."); the use of speculative language indicates that the 5x4 pattern was not set-in-stone as of the time of the recording - the CUAC/20 could ultimately end up firing in a 3x6.67 configuration (burst of 3 shells @ 6.67 damage per shell), or a 4x5 configuration, or a 6x3.33 configuration, and so on.

The other CUACs would probably follow the same pattern, IMO; a CUAC/10 could easily end up as 3x3.33 (burst of 3 shells @ 3.33 damage per shell, for a total of 10 damage per burst) or 4x2.5 or 5x2, while a CUAC/5 could be set up as 3x1.67 (burst of 3 shells @ 1.67 damage per shell, for a total of 5 damage per burst) or 4x1.25 or 5x1 & a CUAC/2 could be set up as 3x0.67 (burst of 3 shells @ 0.67 damage per shell, for a total of 2 damage per burst) or 4x0.50 or 5x0.40.

[Ketzktl]

If clan ACs are burst fire and IS stay front loaded, doesn't that just make the clan AC's straight up inferior?

[FupDup]

Ketzktl, on 26 May 2014 - 10:04 AM, said:

If clan ACs are burst fire and IS stay front loaded, doesn't that just make the clan AC's straight up inferior?

Let's make a list.

Clan UAC advantages:

• Lighter weight
  
• Smaller critslot size
  
• Slightly longer range
  
• Doubletap mode allows for twice the damage output of normal ACs of the same size

Clan UAC disadvantages:

• Burst-fire instead of FLD
  
• Can only be mounted on Clan Omnis for now, meaning you have to deal with hardlocked base chassis weaknesses.

At least, that's what we know so far. The Clan UACs may or may not have altered base rates of fire and/or jamming chances.

Edited by FupDup, 26 May 2014 - 10:12 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Ketzktl, on 26 May 2014 - 10:04 AM, said:

If clan ACs are burst fire and IS stay front loaded, doesn't that just make the clan AC's straight up inferior?

For the most part, yes.

Although if it doesn't jam, 40 damage spread might just be better than 20 FLD. It depends on the jam chances, and burst length.
We don't have any of the important details.

[p8ragon]

FupDup, on 26 May 2014 - 10:11 AM, said:

Let's make a list.

Clan UAC advantages:

• Lighter weight
  
• Smaller critslot size
  
• Slightly longer range
  
• Doubletap mode allows for twice the damage output of normal ACs of the same size

Clan UAC disadvantages:

• Burst-fire instead of FLD
  
• Can only be mounted on Clan Omnis for now, meaning you have to deal with hardlocked base chassis weaknesses.

At least, that's what we know so far. The Clan UACs may or may not have altered base rates of fire and/or jamming chances.

IMO the advantages still outweigh the disadvantages, but only time will tell.

[Khobai]

Quote

If clan ACs are burst fire and IS stay front loaded, doesn't that just make the clan AC's straight up inferior?

Yes they will be straight up inferior.

Doesnt matter if they weigh less, burst fire is outright worse than pinpoint damage.

Which is why IS AC20s should do burst fire damage too. The fact everyone in this tournament is using Autocannons and PPCs should be an indication to PGI that FLD weapons are not at all balanced.

Quote

IMO the advantages still outweigh the disadvantages, but only time will tell.

Im not seeing it. Pinpoint damage is just so overwhelmingly powerful in this game. Going from pinpoint to burst fire is a huge disadvantage. And making the weapon weigh a few less tons and have slightly longer range just doesnt balance that out. Especially if it has the same ghost heat restriction of 1.

Quote

Although if it doesn't jam, 40 damage spread might just be better than 20 FLD. It depends on the jam chances, and burst length.

I believe they said the CUAC/20 will fire five bursts of 4 damage every cooldown. So the cooldown is probably around 3.0-3.5 seconds assuming a 20% jam.

Edited by Khobai, 26 May 2014 - 10:31 AM.

[Hans Von Lohman]

According to the podcast interviews the clan Autocannons will be different than IS autocannons.

Clan Ultra Autocannons will fire bursts of little shells, not single, full sized shells at double rate of fire.

Clan LBX autocannons will have the option to have solid shells instead of carrying cluster, buckshot ammo. No, this does not mean that Inner Sphere LB-10x will get solid shot ammo, as that would mean the normal AC-10 is obsoleted.

[Ketzktl]

p8ragon, on 26 May 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

IMO the advantages still outweigh the disadvantages, but only time will tell.

Ok, I agree that this might be jumping the gun a bit as we don' t actually have the stats yet, but just from a theorycrafting point of view for now, looking at Smurfy an AC2 does ~3 dps for 6 tons while an AC20 is 5 for 14 tons. So in theory other than the cost of the extra ballistics slot (which I do agree is a consideration), 2xAC2 is lighter, longer range and higher dps than AC20, but that build isn't very common.

I guess the question is how much more dps do the clan weapons need in order to compensate for the burst fire disadvantage? As you said, we will have to wait and see how they turn out.