300 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Khobai, on 31 May 2014 - 03:21 PM, said:

Good FLD shouldnt exist anyway. It breaks the game.

not really.

Perfect Convergence breaks the game.

FLD? Not so much. Mind you, FLD weapons should have a longer cooldown probably, but break the game? No.

Having every weapon a different version of DoT mechanic would break the game, in large part from BOREDOM. The different damage delivery mechanisms were one of the few things PGI got right. Their ruining all the mechanics around them, a different story.

Mavairo, on 31 May 2014 - 03:22 PM, said:

FLD Pinpoint is for GR and PPC.
NOT ACs.
ACs are too light for them to be allowed to be FLD and their damage is far too high for it.

12 and 14 tons are too LIGHT? Um-...... ok?

Mind you as I stated earlier, they all need longer coolddowns, but no, between mass and ammo, can't really agree anything is too light.

[Mavairo]

Bishop Steiner, on 31 May 2014 - 03:29 PM, said:

not really.

Perfect Convergence breaks the game.

FLD? Not so much. Mind you, FLD weapons should have a longer cooldown probably, but break the game? No.

Having every weapon a different version of DoT mechanic would break the game, in large part from BOREDOM. The different damage delivery mechanisms were one of the few things PGI got right. Their ruining all the mechanics around them, a different story.



12 and 14 tons are too LIGHT? Um-...... ok?

Mind you as I stated earlier, they all need longer coolddowns, but no, between mass and ammo, can't really agree anything is too light.

Yes, 12 and 14 tons is too light.
See my edit as to why it is.

By the time you've gotten enough HS to run 2 LL you're well over the weight of an AC10 or AC20 and it's respective ammo.
For a much worse pay off especially in the current game environment.
To make 4 ML work you're looking at alot more HS than 2 LL, and then it's shorter range, and spreads damage far too easily.

ACs being FLD kills most of the mechs in the game from being viable at higher end play. You can make ACs as hot as Lasers are over all to run right now, and it wouldn't change a damn thing. You could give them a 10 second cool down and everyone would still field them. Because they slap One Point of armor. Over and over again.

What would you rather have... Crap Mechanics of now... where it's Cataphract, Highlanders and Dragonslayers Forever with the odd Sh*thawk thrown in...

or a game where the AWS can actually take the field, the HBK becomes viable, lights can actually Skirmish without simply dying in one volley (like they presently do in the higher brackets of ELO).

ACs being FLD Kills Build Diversity. Not enhances.

Do you consider the Small Pulse Laser and the MG to be the same Weapon?

Edited by Mavairo, 31 May 2014 - 04:03 PM.

[WhoDidTheElf]

Mavairo, on 31 May 2014 - 03:22 PM, said:

FLD Pinpoint is for GR and PPC.
NOT ACs.
ACs are too light for them to be allowed to be FLD and their damage is far too high for it.

First, you're going down a very slippery slope here, and second your argument is against "too high of damage" (and that AC's are to light) not really front loaded damage. My proposed change reduces their damage like Koniving breaks down for us. (in a 10 second cycle)

Koniving, on 31 May 2014 - 03:19 PM, said:

They still would do it in a unique way. They are projectiles, they can't be led by hitscan, they still arc (and truth be told you can fire an AC/20 over a wall and actually hit someone. Seriously, you can. After the upcoming nerf that ability will be pointless, but the fact is you could land shots over a wall by firing up into the sky and still have the ability to hit the target when it comes back down. It does 2 damage which is why no one does it).

The problem right now is that the weapons are not unique. The ACs as they currently are negate and eliminate SRMs. (The reason a Shadowhawk with its 80mm AC/5 carried an SRM-2 rack at all was that 1] SRMs were guided and 2] SRMs were frontloaded in lore, meanwhile his AC/5 required 10 shots to do 5 damage and it had to be focused; the SRMs would only need 2 missile hits to do 4 damage, the best part is even while guided they went after heat so there was no struggle to lock).

It would be different, but not unique. The damage would be over time. You cannot argue that, and damage over time is a mechanic that is already in the game.

The fundamental change would be to reduce the rate of fire for FLD weapons, specifically Larger A/C's, PPC's, and Gauss Rifles that have incredible range, and to either decrease or maintain the rate of fire for "brawler" weapons, such as SRMs, lasers and pulse lasers. This would give you a reason to take SRM's because you would do a lot more damage in the same amount of time. Yes some of it would be spread out, but that's the trade off for higher ROF and the lower range of the weapon.

I do not mind being hit by a barrage of twin A/C 5s and twin PPCs. What I do mind is the frequency in which each mech can do it.

Mavairo, on 31 May 2014 - 03:45 PM, said:

ACs being FLD kills most of the mechs in the game from being viable at higher end play. You can make ACs as hot as Lasers are over all to run right now, and it wouldn't change a damn thing. You could give them a 10 second cool down and everyone would still field them. Because they slap One Point of armor. Over and over again.

In competitive play you have VOIP which allows a team to move together. A brawling team vs. a FLD Pin Point damage team, with "10 second CD's" would be mowed over.

Edited by WhoDidTheElf, 31 May 2014 - 04:30 PM.

[Clint Steel]

On the topic of jump jets:

My vote for controlling (not eliminating) jump sniping would be a combination of several adjustments.

1. Jump jets should generate heat, they are suppose to be pretty hot in the lore.

2. In mid flight torso twisting would be slowed significantly while not firing jump jets.

3. A kind of spool down, after you let go of the jump button. This could be used to cause the jumping mech to "float" a little, giving the opponent the ability to get a shot in a little easier.

4. Landing on a bad leg would cause a stumble, I know not likely, but after they add collisions back in, around 2020, they could do it

[Mavairo]

WhoDidTheElf, on 31 May 2014 - 04:27 PM, said:

First, you're going down a very slippery slope here, and second your argument is against "too high of damage" (and that AC's are to light) not really front loaded damage. My proposed change reduces their damage like Koniving breaks down for us. (in a 10 second cycle)



It would be different, but not unique. The damage would be over time. You cannot argue that, and damage over time is a mechanic that is already in the game.

The fundamental change would be to reduce the rate of fire for FLD weapons, specifically Larger A/C's, PPC's, and Gauss Rifles that have incredible range, and to either decrease or maintain the rate of fire for "brawler" weapons, such as SRMs, lasers and pulse lasers. This would give you a reason to take SRM's because you would do a lot more damage in the same amount of time. Yes some of it would be spread out, but that's the trade off for higher ROF and the lower range of the weapon.

I do not mind being hit by a barrage of twin A/C 5s and twin PPCs. What I do mind is the frequency in which each mech can do it.




In competitive play you have VOIP which allows a team to move together. A brawling team vs. a FLD Pin Point damage team, with "10 second CD's" would be mowed over.

They are too light, and too low heat for the pin pointed FLD damage that they do. Your proposed change would not make them any less No Brainer weapons than they are at present. It also does not address the fact that ACs are supposed to be multi shell shot at once weapons. Or did literally every single MW game before this one, AND TT get it wrong repeatedly?

Also in TT you even have Rotary Cannons, which just put out even more dakka into the air at once than an AC.
The ACs we have in MWO are Solid Slug, LBX weapons or Rifles. They aren't ACs.

Is an MG the same thing as a Small Pulse Laser?
You're drawing a false equivalency thinking DOT ACs would some how be the exact same as DOT Lasers. The playstyles between ACs (which are SUPPOSED to be brawling weapons by the way) and Lasers, are different enough. ACs will roll for more crits, they are dramatically lower heat, and carry ammo. Lasers are lighter, do more damage per ton, and run far hotter.
That's what the choice is supposed to be with Lasers vs ACs.

Not... do you want to ***** slap someone to the floor with almost zero heat involved, or do you want to try and piddle someone's armor away...

Edited by Mavairo, 31 May 2014 - 04:51 PM.

[WhoDidTheElf]

Mavairo, on 31 May 2014 - 04:45 PM, said:

They are too light, and too low heat for the pin pointed FLD damage that they do.

So they're too light and they're too low of heat...not too high of damage? Which is it?

Quote

Your proposed change would not make them any less No Brainer weapons than they are at present.

You miss on an 8 second CD for your only weapons..and you have a light closing in on you. You, sir, are dead.

Quote

It also does not address the fact that ACs are supposed to be multi shell shot at once weapons. Or did literally every single MW game before this one, AND TT get it wrong repeatedly?

I don't know how many times the whole "it's this way in TT thus it must be this way in the game" has been beaten to death. Just because it worked on a board game doesn't mean it will work in a FPS game.

And as far as I can remember, every other MW hasn't been what I would call "balanced."

Quote

Is an MG the same thing as a Small Pulse Laser?

Why do you ask?

Edit: As far as the Burst AC's and lasers being the same, I commented on that couple posts up. I admitted they would not be exactly the same, but hardly unique.

Either way it still avoids my point increase CD's would not make lasers more competitive.

Edited by WhoDidTheElf, 31 May 2014 - 04:57 PM.

[Mcgral18]

WhoDidTheElf, on 31 May 2014 - 04:53 PM, said:

Why do you ask?

They have identical damage transfer mechanics, although the MG has a CoF added into the hitscan.

For weapons with identical code, they sure feel different.

Edited by Mcgral18, 31 May 2014 - 04:56 PM.

[Veranova]

Poptarting is a real play-style. It is fine to exist.
The work they need to do is improve other play-style's ability to work well.

Which is what they're doing by making Poptarting a bit more difficult.

[Mavairo]

WhoDidTheElf, on 31 May 2014 - 04:53 PM, said:

So they're too light and they're too low of heat...not too high of damage? Which is it?



You miss on an 8 second CD for your only weapons..and you have a light closing in on you. You, sir, are dead.



I don't know how many times the whole "it's this way in TT thus it must be this way in the game" has been beaten to death. Just because it worked on a board game doesn't mean it will work in a FPS game.

And as far as I can remember, every other MW hasn't been what I would call "balanced."



Why do you ask?

You're trying to be pedantic. This is not going to end well.
They are too light, and generate far too little heat for the front loaded damage they deal. I'm pretty sure you are intelligent enough to figure that out

Because they got it a damn sight closer than PGI has. Considering there's only one viable weapon combo at higher level play in this game. Even LL was better balanced than this mess, and that was just a Mod on steroids.

I ask because, you seem to think they are used the exact same or that they carry the same function on the battle field, conceptually.

[WhoDidTheElf]

Mavairo, on 31 May 2014 - 04:58 PM, said:

You're trying to be pedantic. This is not going to end well.
They are too light, and generate far too little heat for the front loaded damage they deal. I'm pretty sure you are intelligent enough to figure that out

Hardly, I'm just trying to figure out your grief with AC's. It's not the front loaded damage they do, it's the fact that they either are A) too light, B ) too cool or C) do too much damage. Not that they are front loaded.

I don't care for points A or B, but I do address point C.

Quote

Because they got it a damn sight closer than PGI has. Considering there's only one viable weapon combo at higher level play in this game. Even LL was better balanced than this mess, and that was just a Mod on steroids.

I admit I never played LL, but I did play MW:2-4 and must recall a vastly different game than you. But this is all a moot point really.

Quote

I ask because, you seem to think they are used the exact same or that they carry the same function on the battle field, conceptually.

I never made such a statement.

Edited by WhoDidTheElf, 31 May 2014 - 05:02 PM.

[Mavairo]

WhoDidTheElf, on 31 May 2014 - 05:02 PM, said:

Hardly, I'm just trying to figure out your grief with AC's. It's not the front loaded damage they do, it's the fact that they either are A) too light, B ) too cool or C) do too much damage. Not that they are front loaded.

I don't care for points A or B, but I do address point C.




I admit I never played LL, but I did play MW:2-4 and must recall a vastly different game than you. But this is all a moot point really.



I never made such a statement.

It is the front loaded damage. There is far far too little opportunity cost to run ACs as FLD weapons. Opp cost in this game is Heat, Weight or Damage. There is absolutely zero true trade off given how useless other weapons are compared to the AC. This comes to the fact that they are zero heat or near zero, while providing massive damage in return. That they are near zero heat means, their Obvious large weight becomes largely a non factor, since you do not have to try to keep a mech that runs heavy on ACs cool at all. Where as every laser in this game has a very large heat tax that requires you to fit a disproportionate number of heat sinks to cool the mech off and "sustain" fire.

M2-4 also had a vastly different heat system that favored dissipation over heat capacity. Which is what caused a great many issues there.

Then why are you worried about ACs becoming DOT weapons making them the Same as Lasers, in game play execution? Obviously the MG and SPL play pretty differently despite there being so very little difference in them in Code.

Edited by Mavairo, 31 May 2014 - 05:47 PM.

[Koniving]

WhoDidTheElf, on 31 May 2014 - 04:27 PM, said:

It would be different, but not unique. The damage would be over time. You cannot argue that, and damage over time is a mechanic that is already in the game.

The fundamental change would be to reduce the rate of fire for FLD weapons, specifically Larger A/C's, PPC's, and Gauss Rifles that have incredible range, and to either decrease or maintain the rate of fire for "brawler" weapons, such as SRMs, lasers and pulse lasers. This would give you a reason to take SRM's because you would do a lot more damage in the same amount of time. Yes some of it would be spread out, but that's the trade off for higher ROF and the lower range of the weapon.

I do not mind being hit by a barrage of twin A/C 5s and twin PPCs. What I do mind is the frequency in which each mech can do it.

Yes. But it's a weapon that is supposed to be damage over time by lore.

(Lasers ironically are not typically supposed to be damage over time but front loaded and instant according to some and in past games. According to others instant damage but depending on the variant, 1 to many shots; one example I like is the Rassal Blue Beam with a 1 second charge with visual warning (vibration, heat emissions, 0.3 second beam, and 8.7 cooldown with EM Interference as a negative quirk with near-instant 5 damage that reduces boating (which get increasingly worse for each one fired at the same time), where another might squeeze off 3 1-second long beams in 10 seconds for a total of 5 damage).

Past games have shown examples of what front loading lasers can do. Especially Clan Pulse. Ironically Clan Pulse (and regular pulse) are described as rapid fire lasers (where regular lasers are not) so unfrontloading them is an obvious given. They're frequently depicted as either rapid instant beams or akin to Star Trek Disruptors.(MW2 was really fond of this idea, as was MechAssault. I'm not exactly a fan of the 'disruptor' concept but it would make them unique).

Reducing the rate of fire for FLD weapons won't do much. It'll further alienate autocannon lore (even an AC/2 is capable of shooting 10 times in 10 seconds). If you isolate it to heavier autocannons, all you've created is another reason to make them meta.

Lets say you reduce the firing rate of an AC/20 to twice per 10 seconds. Once every 6 seconds for example. So 0 and 6 are your firing times. You've reduced it to 40 damage.
The PPC? You just reduced that to 20 damage in 10 seconds.
The Clan ER PPC? 30 damage.
The Gauss Rifle? 15 damage (it was already having trouble).

You just made the most powerful weapon available in our time line completely worthless.

Also the AC/10 outperforms the AC/20. That's bad. Even if you do reduce it as well, the AC/10 will be better than the PPC even then when in lore it is not. Not to mention inferior range.

Do you want to know why the range of the AC/20 blows so bad? Because at the same size caliber as the AC/5, it'd pump out 4 times as many shots in the same amount of time, resulting in heavier recoil. At 120mm, that's 3 shots AC/5, 6 shots AC/10, 12 shots AC/20. At 80mm, it was 4 shots AC/2, 10 shots AC/5, 20 shots AC/10, 40 shots AC/20 (but an AC/20 at this size doesn't exist), all within a 10 second period (some as rapid burst with magazine-feed exchange times and some as belt/chain fed).

In the highest calibers for the AC/20, it was so heavy on recoil that the mech in lore had to stop moving or it would fall over. 180mm was 5 shots. 185mm was 4.

[n r g]

Sable, on 27 May 2014 - 05:43 PM, said:

I've put up with a lot of this through the last 6 months. They've tried to address this a few times but its still just super annoying. The only thing to get me this frustrated before was the PPC nonsense that made me stop playing for 3 weeks until they finally adjusted them.

Does anyone else feel like the game would be a substantially better game if they just disabled all weapons while in the air? There's got to be a better way but i'm at that point where they could do just that and i'd be totally satisfied with it.

Maybe make the momentum of the mech not change so sharply after the jets cut so that mechs hover for a while and then slowly fall and return shots are more doable?

I'd also love for them to make all autocannons shoot in burst like they said they are doing for clan weapons instead of single shots. Spreading that damage around would do wonders at reducing pinpoint damage. And PPCs cooldown increased to 6 seconds or or or the speed slowed down like in every frickin other mechwarrior game before it. I didn't understand why PPCs were slow moving in other mechwarrior games until they did it until MWO and now it just makes so much sense.

I got premium time running but i think i'm just gonna let it burn away and hope something changes soon.


NOTE: pages 3-7 get way off topic with a few people arguing and insulting each other but around page 8 people start to get back on topic.

Disable all weapons in the air? are you kidding me?

why are you guys so desperate to have a 100m brawl fest so bad?

[Mcgral18]

E N E R G Y, on 31 May 2014 - 06:44 PM, said:

Disable all weapons in the air? are you kidding me?

why are you guys so desperate to have a 100m brawl fest so bad?

Why is PGI against short range engagements?

[P e n u m b r a]

Mcgral18, on 31 May 2014 - 06:49 PM, said:

Why is PGI against short range engagements?

They are not? it is a serious and worrying misconception about pop tarting. Brawling is actually stronger don't believe me then go watch the tourney matches and tell me the bulk weapon system across the drop deck is not medium lasers and ac20s with any team that placed high forcing down a push (after dropping arty) and then a 100m brawl ranged is good only in a pug game where there is no coordination and a skilled player can stay in the backline unchallenged and pick people off more JJ nerfs and ranged nerfs would be horrible for the game. Brawling is not a dog fight or advanced tactic the games paced to slow for that a brawl is simply finding a opportunity to break a enemies line and overwhelming it and then choosing targets as you go.

[n r g]

L e 0, on 31 May 2014 - 11:58 PM, said:

They are not? it is a serious and worrying misconception about pop tarting. Brawling is actually stronger don't believe me then go watch the tourney matches and tell me the bulk weapon system across the drop deck is not medium lasers and ac20s with any team that placed high forcing down a push (after dropping arty) and then a 100m brawl ranged is good only in a pug game where there is no coordination and a skilled player can stay in the backline unchallenged and pick people off more JJ nerfs and ranged nerfs would be horrible for the game. Brawling is not a dog fight or advanced tactic the games paced to slow for that a brawl is simply finding a opportunity to break a enemies line and overwhelming it and then choosing targets as you go.

Edited by E N E R G Y, 01 June 2014 - 12:05 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

ACs at burst would give more reason to use the Gauss, which no one uses.

Which is silly because all that will lead to is Gauss/PPCs becoming the new meta again. Suggesting that ACs should deal burst damage while leaving Gauss/PPCs alone demonstrates a fundamental lack of awareness regarding the real problem: which is any weapon that does 10+ pinpoint damage. You simply cannot convert ACs over to burst damage, while leaving Gauss/PPCs as is, and expect everything to be fine. The only way this gets fixed is if ACs, PPCs, and Gauss all have their pinpoint damage reduced.

ACs should do burst fire and gain access to multiple ammo types. PPCs should do arcing damage and gain an EMP hud targeting disruption ability. And Gauss should do lower damage, but have a percentage chance to penetrate armor and damage internals directly (gauss chargeup should be removed too). What that does is significantly reduce the pinpoint damage of these weapons and replaces it with utility abilities instead, which makes each weapon more unique.

There. Ive just fixed pinpoint damage while simultaneously making all three weapons more unique than theyve ever been in the entire history of the game.

Edited by Khobai, 01 June 2014 - 12:22 AM.

[Dymlos2003]

PPCs should not arc. It will make the weapon useless

[Khobai]

Quote

PPCs should not arc. It will make the weapon useless

PPCs currently make lasers useless. Somehow you think thats better? You think its good to have the game be completely dominated by PPC/ACs with no other weapons getting used? Theres nothing good about that. Pinpoint damage has dominated the game long enough and its time to end that reign.

Making PPCs do arcing damage brings PPCs back into parity with Lasers. All you have to do is find out how much pinpoint damage you have to remove from PPCs to make them equal to Lasers. I suspect 60%-70% pinpoint and 30%-40% arcing damage would be ideal. So PPCs might do 6 damage to the location you aim at and then 4 damage divided evenly among adjacent locations. Now PPCs and Large Lasers are on the same level instead of PPCs being outright better.

Additionally PPCs would gain an EMP effect which causes HUD targeting disruption. No other weapon in the game would have that ability. So PPCs would definitely still get used.

Edited by Khobai, 01 June 2014 - 12:35 AM.

[Dymlos2003]

If you want to balance some jump sniping just add the randomness you get firing when jumping to when you are falling too.