300 replies to this topic

[Aresye]

Elkfire, on 01 June 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:

I think you're missing the point. The point is that there are more weapons in the game than PPCs and Autocannons, and it would be nice if those other weapons weren't rendered mostly obsolete (or at least at a significant disadvantage) due to not having the same FLD mechanics.

Oh I completely agree. I would love to see the current meta changed. I just don't like a lot of the suggestions people have proposed because it will impact more weapons than just ACs/PPCs.

[Elkfire]

Aresye, on 01 June 2014 - 11:27 AM, said:

Oh I completely agree. I would love to see the current meta changed. I just don't like a lot of the suggestions people have proposed because it will impact more weapons than just ACs/PPCs.

A lot of them do go a bit too far, but I think bringing those two weapon systems (I'm lumping all of the ACs together, aside from the AC2 and UAC5) into line with the others in terms of spreading damage a bit would be good for the game overall. Pilots with good aim would still do just fine, there would just be fewer occurrences of insta-death, which is (supposed to be) a rare and noteworthy event when it comes to giant, heavily-armored walking tanks. There ought to be at least some sort of balance that makes sniping and brawling (and everything in between) at least close to equally viable, though, granted, expecting that from PGI is iffy at best.

Edited by Elkfire, 01 June 2014 - 11:38 AM.

[WhoDidTheElf]

Elkfire, on 01 June 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:

I think you're missing the point. The point is that there are more weapons in the game than PPCs and Autocannons, and it would be nice if those other weapons weren't rendered mostly obsolete (or at least at a significant disadvantage) due to not having the same FLD mechanics.

Like I've been saying, it's not the FLD mechanic but the fact that they have the FLD mechanic and the DPS advantage as well.

[Elkfire]

WhoDidTheElf, on 01 June 2014 - 11:39 AM, said:

Like I've been saying, it's not the FLD mechanic but the fact that they have the FLD mechanic and the DPS advantage as well.

Well, it's definitely not just one factor alone, but dealing with the FLD issue seems more straightforward than fiddling with damage values to try to strike some kind of perfect equilibrium. Aside from tweaking SRMs to make them more useful again, unless they snuck that in with one of the recent patches and I didn't notice.

Edited by Elkfire, 01 June 2014 - 11:41 AM.

[M0rpHeu5]

I say remove the target shake completely ba give all weapons the movement speed of the mech (I am looking at MW3).

That way you "nerf" direct fire weapons all together while lasers won't be affected.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 01 June 2014 - 07:52 AM, said:

AC20 is used because it has the highest FLD ( which it isn't supposed to)

according to what measure? Hate to break it to you, but aside from spread weapons like SRMs and LRMs and LB-X, all Btech damage is FLD, pinpoint (though randomly placed). The AC20 always placed all 20 pts in one location. So I am pretty sure it is "supposed" to be the biggest FLD gun, regardless of what bad fluff the novels might use.

[Khobai]

Quote

according to what measure? Hate to break it to you, but aside from spread weapons like SRMs and LRMs and LB-X, all Btech damage is FLD, pinpoint (though randomly placed). The AC20 always placed all 20 pts in one location. So I am pretty sure it is "supposed" to be the biggest FLD gun, regardless of what bad fluff the novels might use.

Actually SRMs and LRMs do frontloaded in both Battletech AND MWO. Because they do all their damage immediately and not damage over time. SRMs and LRMs do frontloaded spread damage though.

Frontloaded is the opposite of Damage Over Time (frontloaded is doing all your damage instantly instead of over a duration)

Pinpoint is the opposite of Spread (doing all your damage to one location vs spread out across many locations)

The main difference between Battletech weapons and MWO weapons is precise aiming and convergence of weapons. Being able to ufire all your weapons at the exact point where youre aiming is what causes the overpoweredness of frontloaded pinpoint weapons like PPCs, AC5s, and AC20s.

Edited by Khobai, 01 June 2014 - 02:41 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 June 2014 - 02:09 PM, said:

according to what measure? Hate to break it to you, but aside from spread weapons like SRMs and LRMs and LB-X, all Btech damage is FLD, pinpoint (though randomly placed). The AC20 always placed all 20 pts in one location. So I am pretty sure it is "supposed" to be the biggest FLD gun, regardless of what bad fluff the novels might use.

So, your thoughts on lasers?

Shall we make everything FLD?

Just about every definition of ACs make them fast firing weapons, using multiple rounds to damage the mechs. That's why the range is so short, because it's the range you can accurately place the entire burst on a single location.


Besides, makes balance so much easier. But, if you want to fire your cannon once every 10 seconds, or 6 in a doubled armor environment, I guess that's fine. But let's not have an AC60/AC30.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 01 June 2014 - 04:15 PM, said:

So, your thoughts on lasers?

Shall we make everything FLD?

Just about every definition of ACs make them fast firing weapons, using multiple rounds to damage the mechs. That's why the range is so short, because it's the range you can accurately place the entire burst on a single location.


Besides, makes balance so much easier. But, if you want to fire your cannon once every 10 seconds, or 6 in a doubled armor environment, I guess that's fine. But let's not have an AC60/AC30.

I'd rather keep diversity and fix the real issue. Multi-weapon convergence. Tired of seeing "People For the Utter Neutering of PPCs" and "Let's make all weapons DoT". Closed Beta we had some registration issues. so people leaned toward lasers, but a lot of us used autocannons just fine. Especially Centy nuts like me. No one no one complained about their damage type. Autocannons pay a huge tax for the FLD, and don't even start in about heatsinks blah blah blah. I see plenty of mechs running a pair of PPC just fine.

Heck, until a brief minute in the Meta, all you saw on the forums were posts about the AC10 being a waste of tonnage... and now, it's OP? Make up your mind people!

We want to Nerf ACs? Ranges was a good start. Now let's push back their Cooldowns. AC2s 1/sec or so, ac5 1/2sec LB-x 1/2.5-3sec. Ac10 1/3.5-4 second AC20 1/5-6 sec, and yes the PPC to 1 shot every 4-5 seconds. These would also all significantly impact TTK which is supposedly the big concern, without making every weapon system generically boring.

Yes, we are sadly unlikely to see convergence ever fixed, according to PGIs posts. I also feel we are unlikely to see wholesale changes to damage mechanics. If we are going to chase pipedreams, I would prefer we chase the ones for the real culprits in the game.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 01 June 2014 - 05:37 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 June 2014 - 05:36 PM, said:

I'd rather keep diversity and fix the real issue. Multi-weapon convergence. Tired of seeing "People For the Utter Neutering of PPCs" and "Let's make all weapons DoT". Closed Beta we had some registration issues. so people leaned toward lasers, but a lot of us used autocannons just fine. Especially Centy nuts like me. No one no one complained about their damage type. Autocannons pay a huge tax for the FLD, and don't even start in about heatsinks blah blah blah. I see plenty of mechs running a pair of PPC just fine.

Heck, until a brief minute in the Meta, all you saw on the forums were posts about the AC10 being a waste of tonnage... and now, it's OP? Make up your mind people!

We want to Nerf ACs? Ranges was a good start. Now let's push back their Cooldowns. AC2s 1/sec or so, ac5 1/2sec LB-x 1/2.5-3sec. Ac10 1/3.5-4 second AC20 1/5-6 sec, and yes the PPC to 1 shot every 4-5 seconds. These would also all significantly impact TTK which is supposedly the big concern, without making every weapon system generically boring.

Yes, we are sadly unlikely to see convergence ever fixed, according to PGIs posts. I also feel we are unlikely to see wholesale changes to damage mechanics. If we are going to chase pipedreams, I would prefer we chase the ones for the real culprits in the game.

Honestly, a poor mans burst fire is very easy. Cut the damage, heat and recycle on ballistics. Even PGI could manage that.


But longer cooldowns work too. Keep the short range weapons where they are, then the poptarts are unaffected until the short range people close...and they don't have all the advantages they used to. Just FLD and slightly longer cooldowns.

5.5 is my prefered PPC cooldown.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 01 June 2014 - 05:43 PM, said:

Honestly, a poor mans burst fire is very easy. Cut the damage, heat and recycle on ballistics. Even PGI could manage that.


But longer cooldowns work too. Keep the short range weapons where they are, then the poptarts are unaffected until the short range people close...and they don't have all the advantages they used to. Just FLD and slightly longer cooldowns.

5.5 is my prefered PPC cooldown.

I figure any numbers are placeholders til tested. 5.5 might work, might be a skosh too long. But would certainly be worth investigating. As an aside, my thought would be standard PPCs at 5 seconds, ER at 5.5, to comp for no minimum range and longer max (yeah heat tax too, but that worthless sub 90 is pretty big for a primary weapon system, not to mention not remotely canon)

also if they were to add in my idea for the JJ shake, I think it would significantly impact poptarting, and then we would get a clearer picture of the actual state of FLD.

I do think it is made into worse than the sum of it's part because of the "Poptart Menace" taking advantage of low risk/high gain tactic, perfect convergence AND FLD. So taking a wrecking ball to any one thing might be premature (though oh so very Paul)

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 01 June 2014 - 05:50 PM.

[Eglar]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 June 2014 - 05:36 PM, said:

We want to Nerf ACs? Ranges was a good start. Now let's push back their Cooldowns. AC2s 1/sec or so, ac5 1/2sec LB-x 1/2.5-3sec. Ac10 1/3.5-4 second AC20 1/5-6 sec, and yes the PPC to 1 shot every 4-5 seconds. These would also all significantly impact TTK which is supposedly the big concern, without making every weapon system generically boring.

I would understand that change on a long-range high caliber weapons such as the ppc/erppc/gauss but why nerf down the AC dps in general. How does a DPS nerf justify the tonnage + ammo tonnage + critical slots invested? for let's say ac10 ac20 ac5?

Bishop Steiner, on 01 June 2014 - 05:36 PM, said:

Yes, we are sadly unlikely to see convergence ever fixed, according to PGIs posts. I also feel we are unlikely to see wholesale changes to damage mechanics. If we are going to chase pipedreams, I would prefer we chase the ones for the real culprits in the game.

Whether it's broken or not is the question. Personally I don't think convergence should ever be "fixed". I am not sure if you're suggesting drawing multiple crosshairs (one for each torso-mounted weapon)? Mind you, that MW:O, unlike the TT game is a First Person Shooter. People want to hit the where their crosshair is pointing at.

[Bishop Steiner]

Eglar, on 01 June 2014 - 06:00 PM, said:

I would understand that change on a long-range high caliber weapons such as the ppc/erppc/gauss but why nerf down the AC dps in general. How does a DPS nerf justify the tonnage + ammo tonnage + critical slots invested? for let's say ac10 ac20 ac5?


Whether it's broken or not is the question. Personally I don't think convergence should ever be "fixed". I am not sure if you're suggesting drawing multiple crosshairs (one for each torso-mounted weapon)? Mind you, that MW:O, unlike the TT game is a First Person Shooter. People want to hit the where their crosshair is pointing at.

then they need to stop whining when they get killed by it. We had imperfect convergence in MWO CB. If you tried to switch ranges for snap shots, they didn't converge right. Added skill, didn't detract iit.

[Aresye]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 June 2014 - 06:18 PM, said:

then they need to stop whining when they get killed by it. We had imperfect convergence in MWO CB. If you tried to switch ranges for snap shots, they didn't converge right. Added skill, didn't detract iit.

Not to mention MW2, MW3, MW3:PM, MW4, MW4:BL, MW4:Mercs, and MWLL all had perfect convergence too.

[Bishop Steiner]

Aresye, on 01 June 2014 - 08:01 PM, said:

Not to mention MW2, MW3, MW3:PM, MW4, MW4:BL, MW4:Mercs, and MWLL all had perfect convergence too.

and half the armor? And most weapons were fld

[Aresye]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 June 2014 - 08:06 PM, said:

and half the armor? And most weapons were fld

At least ECM worked

[Mcgral18]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 June 2014 - 08:06 PM, said:

and half the armor? And most weapons were fld

Well, in MWLL the H.Gauss did around 2000 damage....so not quite TT stats.

[Utilyan]

Jumpsniping.........is that a pop-tart?

I've been playing video games for years, like "do bow bow chicka chicka" old.

Some fps adapted a system I think started by rainbow six. Like when your in motion the reticle gets bigger. when crouch it gets smaller.


So imagine the torso reticle and arms reticle independently resizing as your in motion depending on how you turn, your speed ect.


So like if you start from cover on a 120kph run it might bump wide and then tighten as you "stabilize" within your current speed.

So you got this quality of shot.



Personally a pop-tart never gave me trouble to ever have to whine about it.

A lot of these threads seems like shatty player attempting to compensate with nerfs against the twitch "cod" gamer, who which I hate to break it to you, is just going to get an easier game as the nerfs keep coming.

If your the slow guy who always sucked at video games.........you will always suck at video games. I remember I was playing battlefield 4 in beta.....folks complained because they were being shot from troops on top of buildings........

I have no respect for the "oh the poptarts are slaughtering me" guy and wants it gone. That guy is guaranteed to whine about something else next and will never come to grips that he just blows. He's the same fellah who would never accept a solution provided by other FPS because he THINKS he finally found a game he is good at a twitch ain't. Tries to hide behind words like "simulator" then cries like a bch when when weapons and mechs are historic so they have to be nerfed to "balance".

On the other hand I could understand one who wants to push a more heavy vehicular combat feel, with more tankness and less robo.

[White Bear 84]

Here is an idea. Consider the lore regarding how JJ work. Basically this. You either use superheated oxygen, a fluid medium to prevent heat build up or a combination of the two. Your choice determines impact on your mech and loadout.

So your mech has one of three options;

• Carry fuel for the JJ and have minimal heat
  
• Use oxygen and suffer heat from jumping
  
• Use a hybrid and suffer moderate heat and half fuel as 1.

Predicted impact examples: 1. Reduces JJ energy builds/constant alpha striking/2. Reduces available tonnage.





Additional heatsinks can be utilised to counter the heat produced - at the expense of tonnage.

Further to this, the amount of fuel required or heat generated is proportionate to mech size thus negating an excessive impact on lights/mediums..

A secondary way of approaching this - each round a mech has a set amount of liquid fuel - when this fuel runs out then the mech relies on oxygen for fuel which creates heat. So the use of JJ without any impact should be situational and limited to a degree rather than I can just jump whenever I wan and as often as I want...

One final consideration - Were a component is exposed, the JJ in that component should have a chance to crit and break given that "Inside a magnetically shielded reaction chamber buried deep inside the 'Mech..." I dread to think what the actual impact of piercing that chamber would be, but JJ's causing the mech to explode or spew superheated gas in all directions might be a bit much..

Some points which are true to lore and have formed the basis of this idea;

Proposed mechanism in a nutshell - "Inside a magnetically shielded reaction chamber buried deep inside the 'Mech, an electron beam superheats a reaction mass and expels the expanding gases through nozzles located on the back of the 'Mech or in its legs. Reaction mass is commonly provided in the form of air forced into the reaction chamber by a system of turbo-compressors, but most 'Mechs have a small amount of alternate reaction mass, usually in the form of hydrogen, water or mercury, in order to facilitate operation in a vacuum and to reduce the wear on the jets from superheated oxygen when in an atmosphere that contains it"

Landing damage (incoming?) and heat buildup - "Care must be taken when jumping, however, as jumping causes heat buildup with even the shortest jump generating more heat than running, and damage to a 'Mech's gyro or leg actuators and joints can cause a 'Mech to fumble upon landing."

In water - "Owing to the inability of liquids to be compressed, submerged jump jets cannot be used lest the extreme pressure rupture the jet's casing"

Reticule shake (already present) - "Jumping makes a 'Mech harder to hit, but the accuracy of weapons fitted to the jumping 'Mech is also adversely affected"

I don't care how it was implemented in previous games, but here is the lore and a perfectly acceptable way to reduce jump sniping imo...

Unintended side effect - dropping on HPG will have potential to negate oxygen only builds given the lack of oxygen in an atmosphere to burn, thus mechs require liquid fuel to JJ.

Edited by White Bear 84, 01 June 2014 - 10:29 PM.

[YueFei]

Honestly I kinda like that the threat of FLD means you gotta be on your toes and ready to defend yourself in a split second. It makes it exciting, while still making it possible to shield and mitigate the damage.

The problem is that what should be one of the premier short-range weapons just don't pack enough punch to justify the risks.

Why load up on the same tonnage (and greater hardpoint/crit slot investment) in SRMs instead of AC5's/UAC5's, and lose out on range and heat efficiency, when the advantage it gives you at 90 frakking meters range on a stationary target is 23% faster TTK vs AC5?

And if you're up against a skilled pilot who twists and tanks some of your shots on his arms/shoulders? You probably overheat before you can kill him, requiring you to slow your rate of fire and losing out on whatever TTK advantage you might have had.

If SRM-wielding brawlers have to brave a hail of PPC+AC fire to get into range, they should be rewarded for it by ripping people in half with frightening speed. Any other mech has to react in a split second to defend against PPC+AC fire, why should it be any different for SRMs? React a touch late to a point-blank SRM salvo and your mech should end up taking a dirt nap.

Edited by YueFei, 02 June 2014 - 12:00 AM.